Ended up here after things Erupted..Help!

GiveMePeace

Hello all. I recently bought the primer and almost puked as soon as I started reading it. I couldn't believe how accurate/scary it was.  I immediately started my Map furiously.

My wife and I have been together for 13 yrs married for 6.  We definitely have the "best Friends" thing going on.  I am a Beta Schlub and not even good at some of that.  I ended up here because the slow trickle of sex 2 times a month finally broke me when I was drunk and I exploded.  Starting in public amongst friends and continued home and late into the night with breaking up the house included.  ..After reading the primer I saw everything I was doing wrong which was pretty much no Alpha.  It has been less than a week and I think she is getting over it. 

The day after I was totally Schlubbing it up trying to get her to kiss me..Orbiting profusely..and saying I love you in a real needy way. That night I bought the primer and stayed up all night reading it.  The next day I changed everything. No orbiting no needy stuff...went out and bought some new sexy clothes and cologne .  

My first Question- I haven't attempted to kiss her since the Schlub day.  When she goes to leave the house she says bye in way that maybe she is wondering why im not concerned about giving her one and same when we go to bed...Meanwhile my attitude is very upbeat and positive and our interactions have been pretty good since the incident...To kiss or not ti kiss..Im kind of enjoying the power of no fear but it comes and goes because fear, paranoia, anxiety were all things Id become accustomed to.  She probably has a Sex rank 1-2 higher than me and the fight sort of included an ultimatum. I know now that is not good.  So thats why I went full bore with Map.  She is not wearing her ring which is a move she pulls from time to time. I usually call her on it and she eventually does.. This time Im not even acknowledging it.. Also she has fit tested me a couple times.. I said no once but caved the other time.I did one to her and she caved.. 

Eightbit

Welcome.

You need to do a triage sooner rather than later if you want good help. With such a sex rank disparity any form of ultimatum is horribly bad like you're now aware. What is the source of the disparity, is it easily corrected, as in are you overweight?

Athol_Kay

Hiya,

start the triage questions please.

http://marriedmansexlife.com/triage-your-relationship-and-the-911-er-category/

Moving to 911

 

RebuildingHusband

First off, as others have said, please hit the triage.  There are some amazingly helpful folks here but they need a starting point to help you.  See my very recent thread of victim puke/defeatism then help then implementation then improvement and further help... http://marriedmansexlife.vanillaforums.com/discussion/9967/help-may-be-too-far-gone/p1

Also, going through the self assessment of your reds/yellows/greens would be helpful as well, not just to the people trying to help you but it's very therapeutic to do it and begin a plan to work on things at a manageable scope.

Finally, you can fix it.  You have to believe in that.  Then you have to be able to convince her that you can fix it.  From there, be a good Captain and cultivate that relationship to get a good First Officer.  It will take a lot of work but it can be done.

GiveMePeace

Thank you for responding so quickly. I feel very good about this place already..Sooo here is my triage...

1. Medical- She has had a slightly irritated thyroid thing that has been looked at by a doctor who really suggested to use acid reducer for awhile and change diet. We changed our diet to paleo and we have been very pleased with that and her throat issues have subsided. Thats really the only thing that comes ti mind.

2. Structural- I was a scrub when we first met.Pot head lazy scrub. Over the 13 years We have made a lot of progress...We own a home..Two kids pretty stable sitch.. I drive a nice looking vehicle and do does she..We generally have struggled financially prior to the last year or two...I had an ok job that I recently quit to go back to school as our new diet lifestyle kind of snuffed out all the bad parts of our life and I am seekinf a career that I live rather than the default job that I was doing. This was the source of some problems as she was supportive and encouraged me to do so but was a little stressed.

We have more money in the bank than we usually do as I cashed out some options and what not so we can get through some school without major financial burden. She is a hair Stylist who does pretty good. Speaking of which I am bald. I went bald at 21, the same year we moved in with each other some 13 yrs ago. I always had a bit of a belly/ man boob thing going on and no ass to speak of. Sounds appealing right..

Suffice it to say, women respond well when Im confident as I do have a pretty good talk game and can flirt pretty well. Also since going paleo Ive gone from 220 to 197ish and work out often and have improved physique a bit.

3. Critical moments. I have been guilty of screwing things up once in a while. We first had problems a year or so in when we moved for a job that dried up and things went bad. She Cheated.We were like 22 then 34 now. I Lost my job a few years later and she started hanging out with somebody but has assured me like 10,000 times that nothing happened.Both of those things have made me uber paranoid since and I always find a way to get wierd and rehash it witg her and she has grown very tired of this. Recently I went crazy and dropped a bunch if money at a casino and she gave me an ultimatum. Oddly enough it was to improve in helping around house and the whole feeling like my mom routine and admitted that was making me less attractive .

4. Omg im going to puke...This one is scary. She went to school for a night class last year and made some friends. A couple of them have become Hair clients. There was just something that I cant explain went off in my head that one of them was exciting her somehow. When I finally met him he was handsome, not terribly successful but going to school. He's the type of dude who gets his hair touched up every 3 god Damn weeks! When we met he was nice but there was an invisible force making me hate him.

Maybe it was the pre assessment that I had made, after reading primer I think not. He is married and sounds like a happy marriage as described by my wife. I have investigated the Facebook thing as they are friends there. There was just one message on there from her to him asking if he saw her pumpkin bread recipe on pinterest. No response from him. it seemed odd.

As a paranoid Simp I revealed my jealousy toward him. She listed that he was happily married and younger than her so no. I dont think that she has acted on it but I do think she got jacked up on dopamine from him. I thought this before I even knew about this whole dopamine thing.We can be driving down the road and she will bring his name up randomly or tell me that she cut his hair to day and he goes fishing and that we need to start doing that again. Or even the most trivial conversation things out of the blue like" I told Gerry (ya thats his name) that we dont have a water heater cover. And he said thats wierd". She Said this just passing by me in the house a few minutes after telling me some other random thing he said.

Our history goes I cheated 8 years ago and when I confessed i found out that she had too. She is water under the bridge, I am permanently damaged.

5 and 6. We have been together since we were pretty young.We were both in a slutty phase when we met . Sex was great and every day. As the years went by It was a very gradual drop off but pretty consistently 1-2 sometimes 3 times a month for a very long time now so its hard to say exactly when or what happened. We have two small kids that put a damper on things but it was like this before kids.

Elephant- There are two things...One is my features aren't hunk status..hair and teeth not my strong suit but I got laid a lot prior and get the impression from women that my talk game bumps me up a few pegs. The other is that I have looked at porn daily since before we were together. I like amateur submitted photos and movies. I can jerk 3 times a day to this given the privacy. Ive been caught a few times and its banned but I sneak it anyway.

RebuildingHusband

Ok... so let's dig in.  Keep in mind I'm a complete newb at this stuff but it's easier to see it in other people's relationships that your own sometimes.

No medical issues to speak of so that's off the table.

Structural attraction you could be better but you're working on it.  Keep that up.  How much extra effort would it take to improve the teeth?  It's likely worth it because your talk game only takes you so far in a LTR.  She'll eventually be less impressed/more immune to you talking a good game but the teeth are a constant turn off for her, quite possibly.  Not much you can do about the hair but bald can be sexy, just own it!

Who has the higher sex rank?  You or her?

Your critical moments sound like a mess.  You've both screwed it up but still together so there's obviously a reason for that. Stop rehashing the other dude with her.  That looks needy and desperate.  If she's said that nothing has happened and you've done your homework and confirmed that then leave it alone.  If you haven't done all of your homework then finish the job. Not surprised by the "help out around the house" ultimatum.  That's pretty common and one of the things my wife has always asked for.  If you do it from an alpha frame then it's not a big deal.  If you've got no alpha then you better figure that out before you start being a beta bitch and doing shit like that for her.

Dopamine is a bitch.  Any way you can step up and provide that dopamine response?  Improve the alpha frame and fix that pronto.  And did you miss an opportunity to mate guard against this dude?  That would be a huge DLV.  You may not even know you missed it.

Not sure what you mean about the cheating where you say she is "water under the bridge, I'm permanently damaged".  Elaborate on that one for me.  If you were both cheating then you were both missing some pretty fundamental issues between you and definitely not communicating well.

On the sex, when you were young and providing that dopamine response in her it was better.  As she's gotten more comfortable it has declined.  Sounds pretty clear to me.  You're a good provider but you don't excite her.  Keep on the MAP and that can probably be fixed.  If you had it once before, you can get it back.  I'd bet that's along the same lines as the teeth.  The talk game compensated at first.  As that became less effective and she became conditioned, its effects lessened and the structural issues became more of an issue.  Fat guys with bad teeth aren't very sexy.

On the porn, have you ever turned down sex with your wife to jerk off to porn instead?  Have you had any sexual response issues to her in the bedroom but been able to function fine on your own?  The easy answer is to stop the porn.  I'm battling hard with that right now despite the fact that I don't think I'm an addict and I've never had any of the above issues that I've asked you about.

The sensible answer to this is it will force you to direct those sexual energies at your wife and you will work harder for her to be your desire and release.  The catch here is that you can't get frustrated and become whiny about it if you aren't getting any.  I was prepared to go a LONG time without getting any and without using porn but I knew it was my cross to bear if I was going to fix things with my wife.  I'm 3 days porn free.  Doesn't sound like much but tomorrow will be 4 and that's 1 more than I had today.  One day at a time.

Also, to paraphrase a video that Athol posted on the blog awhile back that always gets me fired up, we are all going to be faced with pain, we are all going to die, it's inevitable.  In the meantime you might as well be a fucking savage and live your life the way you wanna live.  You might as well put your best effort, put your best foot forward and train like a mother fucker.  This applies to a lot of things and if taken to heart can be a very powerful reminder that if you want to be successful at anything that it will take desire and dedication.  Not to mention, it's alpha as can be.

Damann

@givemepeace

You ask about kissing or not.  What will the basis of your decision be?  If you don't kiss her out of resentment, or kiss her out of neediness, for example, those could be DLV either way.

I'm facing a similar situation.  Tough period between us, my initiating raises huge defensive shields in my wife, sometimes drive-by embracing/fondling does as well.  So I backed off on those, for now.  Decided to draw the line at kissing.  I will damn well kiss my wife when I feel like kissing her.  When she responds positively we both win, when she responds negatively it's her loss and I move on to something else.  Taking this attitude has made me feel better about myself and more confident with my wife, hoping in the long run these will pay off. 

So, what are your positive reasons for kissing or not kissing your wife?

RebuildingHusband

@Damann that's the way it needs to be.  Outcome Independence (OI) will win the day.  Eventually, the sex rank increase from running the MAP properly will get you more positive results than negative results.

GiveMePeace

Thank you guys...the water under the bridge is how she feels about my cheat and I want to crawl under a rock and die when I get to thinking about hers. She knows this and I realize that our good verbal communication has led me into describing all of my DLV right to her....Im not sure how to guard against other dude without looking like jealous bitch..Also the teeth aren't as blown out as it sounds I just only show the tip of the top fronts when I dont speak confidently and its kind if a buck tooth look if im in a reserved mood. I am looking into cosmetic dentistry. Its a minor fix.

I have noticed some progress with map already. She looks confused and I like it. I put on my slick new threads and cologne before going to school and she was orbiting big time. She made me some lunch too. I kissed her so she knows I haven't just lost feeling and am automatically out the door. Keep in mind we had a huge fight less than a week ago then the next day im MAPing.So im acting the exact opposite to the concept I was punching holes in the wall about..Kind of funny but I didn't want to kiss her at first as I didn't want to loyalty test if thats the correct use of that term...Also what are some fit test ideas to run on her?

GiveMePeace

Also the porn- I've never not had sex because of it but decreased boner quality and load have happened. She acts pretty convincingly like she climaxes when we do have sex about 8 out ten times and says she doesn't know why she never wants sex because its so good when we do. I am afraid to say she gives me the I just don't think about answer because now I know the brutal truth behind that statement. Also Ive had a vasectomy and she has commented that my load is smaller than before..I had jerked to porn a few hours prior to blow job so she thought that was my normal load now... Not good. Ive stopped the porn for 5 days and am saving up a huge one for her.

CaptVere

"As a paranoid Simp I revealed my jealousy toward him. She listed that he was happily married and younger than her so no. I dont think that she has acted on it but I do think she got jacked up on dopamine from him. I thought this before I even knew about this whole dopamine thing.We can be driving down the road and she will bring his name up randomly or tell me that she cut his hair to day and he goes fishing and that we need to start doing that again. Or even the most trivial conversation things out of the blue like" I told Gerry (ya thats his name) that we dont have a water heater cover. And he said thats wierd". She Said this just passing by me in the house a few minutes after telling me some other random thing he said. Our history goes I cheated 8 years ago and when I confessed i found out that she had too. She is water under the bridge, I am permanently damaged. "

This is all a big shit test, you realize right?  It might not be something she is planning, but I think she enjoys bringing him up, knowing how much you hate it.  Ignoring it is probably your best option.  Getting upset or having a talk about it is the worst thing you can do.   She certainly enjoys this man's company and gets to cut his hair, which seems quite intimate to me.  But, he doesn't seem to respond and nothing really has happened, so she feels like she can go all out and keep rubbing it in, knowing how much you hate it.  Ignore, or righteous anger are your only responses I think.  I would personally monitor and keep running your MAP before you go the righteous anger route.  If it escalates, then you have to step in, but if she's just using it as a passive aggressive test, then ignore and keep improving.  Also, her single message to him probably means she deleted the rest of it.

mixnmatch

The best advice I ever received when I was a newbie was when a veteran said, "Anthol's program is a complete mind f--k.  It goes against everything your were taught or believe will get you laid!"  The next best advice is STFU.

Essentially just believe in the Force.  I would think being an awesome husband, father, provider and nice guy would get me laid.  Then I would talk to her to death about no sex and then from time to time get drunk and go off.  NO! 

This program is like a diet.  It's not some quick fix pill.  It is a program that you need to start and keep working for a month for every year together.  I would say even more.  But it works.  If you work it.

Based on what you wrote you need to find out the details about your wife having an EA or PA.  You need to know what you are dealing with.  Easily forgiving a PA makes your wife think there are zero consequences.  When your wife talks about another man those are serious RED flags.  He is triggering her every thought.  Get a GPS and VAR in the car/home.  Hopefully find nothing but you need to know what you are dealing with.  MAP doesn't work with a cheating spouse.

Mateguarding is the hardest f--king thing in the world for me to do.  But you MUST do it.  I don't care if your wife calls your paranoid or clingy.  Your wife is testing you because she has lost respect and attraction for you.  Her biology wants to be mateguarded.

You need to get your SR up.  First hairdressers have an endless supply of guys to bang.  Secondly, school is the easiest place on the planet to meet and bang women.  Your wife has serious options.  Get in shape, keep up the clothes and get your teeth fixed. No one gives a crap about being bald if you have everything else together.  One of the biggest players I know is bald and grabs CA 10+ women.  

Do not tell your wife you are on this program.  Explain new clothes are because of the weight loss.  The teeth just because.  New male hobbies because you are trying to stay active in order to stay in shape.

Don't confuse bad alpha for good alpha.  Pass shi-tests strategically.  When I started I carpet bombed them and that strategy go me no where.  Just remember to hold strong.  If you pass a test and she says "f--k you" on the way out the door don't text her to apologize.  I have had my wife say "f you go to hell" as she left in the morning turn into apology texts, BJs and sex that night.  Being nice makes sense but woman want to bang a man.

Lastly, porn.  Porn for me just reduces my desire to put in the work to get laid.  Stop so you put in the work.  Work is dieting, working out, looking great, sexting your wife up all day, planning dates and looking great.  Recently I have been letting my wife know exactly when I watch porn (I only like real couples too) or pleasure myself.  If I get turned down I practice OI.  I've even told my wife that I pleasured myself and she is shocked that I didn't wine and complain.  Actually I think she gets jealous that I took care of business.  

GiveMePeace

Ok. I am a little confused wether to mate guard or ignore to pass shit test.I have had a feeling that she likes to bring it up knowing I will wince.But I don't want to not guard if I should....I always look at when he is scheduled and notice that she doesn't exactly wear her sexiest work outfit on those days so that is good. His cut is 15 MIN but every 3 weeks and there is a hair wash involved.

anglophile

After she accepts you as alpha she will initiate. It's the strangest thing. My wife thinks that "we have our technique down," but I don't pay attention to technique nearly as much anymore because I realize that her attraction to me, which is through the roof compared to before, is WAY more important than any technique. Also what used to take an hour now takes about 15 minutes, if you follow. This took about a year and a half. I initiate about 1 in 4 times. I caught her in some light flirting and called her on it. Played it cool. I said "look, I'm not the only guy who will ever be attracted to you, and if you like a little attention it's fine, just know that I won't tolerate anything more." She asked if women flirted with me. Brought her to work. She sort of teased me a little and they resented it. "It's like I was harassing THEIR husband." I told her that the most strident of them didn't HAVE husbands. They seem to like the idea of ME as a husband, though, but I'm a grownup and so I resist. Her hamster then crawled out of her left ear, tied on a little blindfold and shot himself. Takeaway: outcome independence and dread game. It works, and you'll get laid.

John3

@GiveMePeace, welcome to MMSL.  You absolutely have come to the right place.  I won't repeat the stuff that's already been (well said), but I will add a couple of points.

Stop with the violence.  Sober, drunk, whatever, pounding holes in walls and yelling and all of that de-stabilize relationships, and are the ultimate DLV.  It does not make you alpha in any way.  Alpha is strong, steady, stabilizing, reliable, in control, being the rock, taking the lead, helping her find her emotional balance, setting boundaries, keeping her safe, protecting her and your kids from the bad stuff in the world, all of that.  Creating fear undoes this.  Violence creates fear.  I get it's a great emotional release...go to the gym and work a bag or lift heavy instead. 

You are getting loyalty tested all over the place.  You both have affairs in your history.  She's testing to see if you care enough to block her from having an affair with the haircut guy.  You need to mate guard.  Comments like "has he done anything inappropriate towards you, because if he has, I'll make sure it doesn't happen again."  You don't have to go all macho navy seal on her (which can make you look ridiculous, unless you are actually a Navy Seal), but you can get your back up.  And if he has, then you pay him a visit and tell him to back off or he'll wish he had.  Might loose your wife a client...boo hoo.  Loyalty tests are "prove that you love me."  Shit tests/Fitness tests are when she tells you to do something, to see if you are so weak that you will take her orders...making you unfit to protect her from the big bad world...which kills attraction.  You have to start passing these tests consistently.  Otherwise mapping just looks like you are trying to get into shape so you can to have an affair with someone else. You need to let her know that you are looking good for her...that's when you can pull out cocky-funny.  So if she notices your new clothes, you can make a comment about how they would look better leaving a trail from here to your bedroom.

Understand how your behavior in the past contributed to her having the affair.  Then get over it and move on...it was years ago.  Or divorce her and go find someone else.  But stop moping about it.  DLV, and creates victimized thinking.  You aren't a victim, you are captain of the ship.

Finally, SR.  Most of us guys over-estimate our SR.  When I hear you say your verbal game ups your SR by a couple of pegs, and yet your wife is essentially un-attracted, I think you have your estimate wrong.  Verbal game can actually pull you down, because you don't have the "goods" to back it up.  Doesn't really matter, because you are going to MAP like crazy anyway.  And your wife is in the beauty business...she's probably very good at calculating SR, because she helps guys improve it.

I also suspect there is something going on with nice-guy behavior...you might pick up No More Mr. Nice Guy after you've read Athol's books.  The clue to me is your breakdown where you trash the house.  That happens when you repress your needs, and suddenly get overwhelmed and can't take it any more.

Finally...you are doing a lot of the right stuff...but you have to be patient.  There are guys here who have been steadily working this for 1-2 years before they see results.  Hopefully your situation will move more quickly than that, but if you expect it to take six months, you'll have better perspective and more patience. 

GiveMePeace

Wow. Thank you guys so much. This is a life changing experience.

RebuildingHusband

You've been given great advice from the above folks.  Apply it and do exactly what you just said.  Change your life.  This isn't a short term thing, this is a lifetime of work.  Get to work and good luck!

sf64

Just a comment on relative SR.

A very hard thing to accept is that "real world" sex rank is completely meaningless.  It all comes down to how your wife evaluates your sex rank relative to hers.  It doesn't matter if you think you are an 8, most people think you are an 8.  If she thinks you are a 5, then you are 5 in the context of how SHE determines relative SR. 

It also matters how she evaluates herself.  If the world thinks she is a 5 but she thinks she is an 8.... then as her brain does the attraction math, she is an 8.

I know a couple where the wife thinks the husband 'nothing special' and she thinks she is a special snowflake that any man would be happy to have.

Reality?  He is probably a 8 and if he worked on upping the alpha, losing the bad beta, how he dresses and got in better shape, could easily be an 9.  She is nothing more than a 5.  And he was complaining to me that his sex life sucks.

Problem?  For what ever reason (including he has too much beta) - wife thinks his SR will well beneath hers.

He has read the MAP and is starting to change.  It will be interesting to see how it re-aligns.  He is going to get the life he wants.  The question is, will it be with his current wife.  I hope so.

Im_a_Man

Losing your shit -

You're blowing up because you don't have a plan to deal with your issues. Losing your shit is not attractive. It has to stop, take that excess energy to the gym.

Jealous -

If you think your wife is making you jealous on purpose, its best to ignore it BUT take that energy and focus it into showing her how attractive she is to you. Don't ask for sex, take her to the bedroom or start undressing her.

She's married -

Tell her to put her ring back on. She could be not wearing it as a symbol that you lost your shit and you displayed low value and embarrassed her.

Porn - 

If you have a tablet, laptop or whatever... fire up the porn in bed with her next to you. If you're going to watch it, do it together. I don't often watch porn, but when i do i watch with my wife. It helps her get in the mood. Hiding stuff from your wife puts you in the role of a sneaky bitch. Nothing alpha about it. Be open, tell her what you want from her.

GiveMePeace

She put her ring back on when I first showed up in new threads. She then took it back off after a couple days of map. I was being really care free about everything and I think she figured I might be done with her and getting ready to cheat. I came to this conclusion with the help of everybody in here. So I started sexting her out of nowhere today. She responded by saying she was "still mad and wasn't sure if she IF she can get over it".I Didn't respond . When I got home a couple hours later she met me at the door with a kiss and appologized saying she really meant "WHEN she will get over it" and her ring was on. I offered no more than to say "I get it, either way" I know this is a marathon not a race but everything you guys say is working like a charm. I pulled the go in for a kiss and stop short thing and after she said" I love you" in a fairly needy way. Im going to fuck her hard . If not im not going to care one bit.I cant imagine what this is going to look like in a year. Im going to work hard on SR.

GiveMePeace

Also- this is all such a mindfuck and especially when I read about the EA PA dopamine shit I get anxiety. Hard. Can anybody help give me a positive attitude on this where I can control my emotions. The primer mentioned thinking of it as mere bodily function but I get derailed when reading those chapters.