Need some perspective

MrTrail

Hi all,

I've been stalking for awhile. Read MMSL and NMMNG and generally been working on improving myself for the last couple of years. I feel stuck and not really able to evaluate my situation or behavior accurately.

I'm 31, wife is 33. We have a 7-year old son. We are not married. We have been together for 13 years. Living together for 12 of those. I call her my wife anyway and have for a long time. We have been in counseling on and off for 2 years and our communication has improved a lot. However, our sex life hasn't improved.

Medical - Nothing major. She's not on birth control and never has been. No medications for either of us. She suffers from migraines which have gotten better and decreased in frequency over the years but they can still be pretty bad occasionally. I am in pretty good shape. I run a lot and work out regularly. She is a little overweight, smokes and generally doesn't take as good care of her body as I do.

Structural - I have a well-paying career and pay for everything: mortgage, two cars, private school, wife's education. My work allows me to provide this way and also do home stuff. I do all the cooking and an equal share of the parenting. I don't see any problems here.

Critical moments and neglect - After our son was born I went into workaholic mode. It was what I thought I needed to do to be a good husband and father. It was hard on her as we became increasingly isolated. She initiated a move back to her home town to be near family and friends. Moving was hard on me. It was a totally foreign environment (I was a city kid and we moved to the country) and her family is huge and very different from mine. I felt like she bailed on me emotionally at this time. So we bailed on each other. Then her mom died. In retrospect we should have all seen it coming but there was a lot of denial and it caught me off guard. I'd never dealt with death this close either and I did a shitty job of supporting her. As if all that was not enough, we were also building a house at this time which put a huge strain on our already strained relationship. Things calmed down a little but our relationship didn't really improve and we reached a turning point. I got the "I love you but I'm not in love with you" speech. It was terrifying. I started to really turn my shit around and then she cheated on me. It was a drunken one-night thing, not a long affair. She didn't tell me until several months afterwards even though we were in couples counseling. In a nutshell, we've hurt each other a lot and there is a lot of resentment and mistrust on both sides.

Outside sources of sex - I don't think so, however she does have ample opportunity. I really have no reason to believe there is anything else going and my gut says no. My gut was going crazy after she cheated but I wrote it off because I was dealing with so many confusing emotions at the time. She has assured me she is committed to this relationship and any difficulty I have accepting that is, I think, my difficulty trusting.

When did the sex go bad - After our kid was born. I went beta and also became a workaholic. It has never been the same in terms of quality. We've been in counseling for awhile and made a lot of improvements and our sex has varied in frequency but it's been very infrequent and boring for awhile now and I'm kind of stumped.

What was sex like at the beginning - It was more frequent and much more relaxed and sexy but it was still not really frequent enough for me and was starting to be an issue before she got pregnant. Also, I may have projected more confidence then but I was way more anxious and uncomfortable with myself and so not as open about what I wanted.  When we talk about our sex life she often brings up what it was like before we had a kid, always wistfully. I'd rather move forward and figure out who we are and what we want now.

What's the elephant in the room? - She was sexually abused as a child. She has always been really open with me and she has done incredible work dealing with the trauma. It's one of the things I admire about her. However, I have started to wonder about how this may be affecting our sex life now. She says it's not. Also, we have both been on our own since we were teenagers. Now that our son is older and we have some financial stability, we are starting to try to figure out what we each want out of life.

Who's the leader in your marriage? - We were fairly independent for a long time but it was definitely her after we had a kid (starting to see the theme here?). She initiated moving back to her home state, she made most of the choices about where we lived and how. Over the last couple of years I've started to set more boundaries, not without meeting resistance. I'm not sure who is the leader now. Sometimes it feels like we are partners, sometimes like we are walking off in separate directions.

Tell us about the good times - things were pretty good before she got pregnant. We both had jobs and lots of free time. We hung out with friends and had our own hobbies. I made a lot of music and art, something I don't really do anymore. We were more affectionate and had more sex. When times are good, we laugh a lot, we are able to tease each other and play games, we talk a lot and there don't seem to be any off-limits topics. She is much more playful sexually during those times. There is also less of a feeling that what each of us does will have a huge impact on the other. We used to be able to say to each other "I want to do this thing" and the other person would say "go for it!". And we could just hang out in the same space and feel totally relaxed.

Thanks for reading.

Eightbit

Welcome to the forum.

Couple of questions off the top of my head. You're calling her your wife but yet say you're not married. Why are you not married if you're going to call her your wife? Does she harbor resentment for you not marrying her?

Another question, you say you became more beta but at the same time pulled away from your familywhen your son was born. Pulling away doesn't quite seem beta to me. Was there more going on here?

Tiger

What does your wife do for a living?

Have you investigated the rules for common law marriage in your state?  You may already be married.

Reading your intro it sure sounds like she is the leader and you are following her around trying to find ways to please her and "fix" things that way.

You say you have say you have been working to improve yourself, what have you done?  What are the current 3 things you are working on?

MrTrail

Eightbit said:

Welcome to the forum. 

Couple of questions off the top of my head. You're calling her your wife but yet say you're not married. Why are you not married if you're going to call her your wife? Does she harbor resentment for you not marrying her? 

Neither of us see any point in getting married. The ritual doesn't hold much for us. Neither of our parents stayed together and when we got together we were pretty distant from our respective families. I call her my wife because we live like a married couple and it's easier to explain. She did want a wedding for awhile but I think she doesn't care anymore. However, that's something I can find out for sure.

Another question, you say you became more beta but at the same time pulled away from your familywhen your son was born. Pulling away doesn't quite seem beta to me. Was there more going on here?

I withdrew a lot emotionally and also spent more time working. I became more needy at the same time. I was overextending myself trying to achieve some perfect provider ideal but it was totally draining and I needed some kind of support but I couldn't see that. My only friends moved away. Over time we became more isolated and enmeshed. When we moved to her hometown I became even more needy and generally lost and depressed. I didn't make any friends. I couldn't relate to her family and the feeling was mutual so I relied on her totally for my emotional needs and mainly tried to hide them by working a lot. When I felt her start to pull away I would cling and do whatever I thought would make her happy often resenting it because I was stretched so thin.

Tiger said:

What does your wife do for a living?

She was a SAHM for the last 7 years except for a brief job in food service for a few months right when we had our last crisis. Now she is in school for massage and doing well at it. She'll finish in the fall and job prospects look pretty good. Before that she lots of different work. Neither of us have much formal education.

Have you investigated the rules for common law marriage in your state?  You may already be married.

Yes, as I understand it we are married as far as the law is concerned but we've never had a wedding.

Reading your intro it sure sounds like she is the leader and you are following her around trying to find ways to please her and "fix" things that way.

You are probably right. When I am anxious I try to fix things.

You say you have say you have been working to improve yourself, what have you done?  What are the current 3 things you are working on?

First thing I did was stop smoking. Then I started exercising and eating well. I lost 35 lbs over a year and am now in the best shape I've ever been in although I could use some more muscle. I went to therapy and dug myself out of depression. I am no longer depressed and have way less social anxiety. I changed jobs so I could work less and have a more balanced life. More time for me and more time with the family. I started educating myself about parenting and I am now a better dad. Part of that is from dealing with things in therapy, too. I also let go of a lot of shame and am now able to  voice my needs and set some boundaries. I am sure I do this in a clumsy way. I have also expressed my dissatisfaction with where and how we live and have made a plan for how to exit this mortgage and live a life that is more in line with my own values and needs. She is on board with part of the plan, at least. I have also put energy into developing a social life but this has been very difficult both because it's something I am not good at and we live in an isolated place. But, I now have a regular running buddy and we go on trips a few times a year. I make sure I get out and about at least once a week to something like yoga or a meetup around one of my hobbies.

Tiger

I would be very surprised if she did not want some kind of wedding or celebration or something.  Even if it is just you getting her a ring and the two of you going to a particular spot and declaring to each other that from this day you are married.  That way you also have an anniversary to celebrate.  Sure it's not necessary, but it is part of the culture in which you live and these things do matter.

I would also go to the effort of registering your marriage with your local government.  There are some significant advantages to being married from a legal perspective.  Being able to file your taxes "married filing jointly" will probably save you a few hundred to a few thousand dollars a year depending on your income so long as you make significantly more than she does.  If you can discover that you have been married by common law for several years you might even be able to file amended returns for the past 3 years and get back a bunch of change.

Fixing things is fine, but following her around and trying make her happy by serving her needs ain't never going to work.  You need to find ways to lead your family to good decisions rather than be implementing her decisions.  That's not to say that you can't take some of her ideas and make them your own, but if you are the one who is earning the money letting her decide where you live was not good.  All you enabled was for her to run away from you back to mommy and daddy and the comfort of "home".  As you now know this is not fixing the problem.

A great list of accomplishments you have there.  It sounds like you are a much stronger and better man than you were.  This sounds like a great foundation to build upon.  You can fix this, it just will take some time.

BTW: If you are replying to a specific person or want to make sure someone sees something you wrote you can page them with an @ sign, like this @tiger or @eightbit.

BrianC

Welcome!  Thanks for starting with the triage right away.  It sounds like you are in a good place structurally, but are having a hard time finding the right behaviour and frame to rekindle things.

I am going to make a very simple opening suggestion: start with the art and music again.  Many women are attracted by intelligence and creativity - both are Alpha traits in their own right.  But they do you no good unless she sees them in use.  Hearing you play music or seeing artwork take shape gives her a chance to admire your mind.

I will also suggest setting a big family goal - not one that is easily handled by money alone.  Something like an adventure experience, or learning a sport, dance technique, or martial art together.  This will let you start setting a course and pace, it will create a precedent for further leadership, and give you the ability to coach and lead in the field regularly.

Another useful strategy is to start making reqests.  Ask her to make a special dinner, or to help you with a task.  Asking people to take actions is dominance, even if it seems soft.

A wedding ceremony, even a humble one has great power.  My wife and I were together for 10 years before we chose to have a wedding.  We did it on a date that usually brought up sad memories for my family, who had only been together as a whole for funerals for a long time.  For them, it was a chance to reconnect and celebrate together, to get some laughing done in a dark time.  For us, it felt like pushing the "reset" button on our relationship; we got to let go of some old problems and start looking at the future a little more clearly.  We don;t have many rituals left in our culture, and so it is easy to forget what power they have.  A wedding ceremony changes how a couple looks at each other.

If I were you I would consider it a possible ace in the hole.  If done well, it can give you two a chance to reconnect in a very psychologically powerful way.

A social life of your own has a lot of potential to up your Alpha, too.  I wrote an e-book called The Art of Friendship on building a social circle.  There's a link in my signature.  I would recommend you consider  a local sports club - something that keeps you active and lets you show off a competitive edge to your wife once in awhile.

MrTrail

Thanks for the responses, @tiger and @brianc. You've definitely made me consider getting married again. It's something I always brush off but I see how it could help with building trust if we are really clear about our commitment to each other. I asked her to marry me a few years ago and she said yes. She has an engagement ring. We started planning and she had ideas that were too grand. We kept putting it off and then it never happened. Perhaps there is a real lack of commitment and follow-through on both sides.

We had a talk on Friday in which I told her that I wanted more closeness and the way I get that is mostly through sex and I wanted some kind of commitment on her part to working on caring for me, not to have sex when she doesn't want to but to work on taking down the barriers she puts up. She said she has a lot of anxiety about sex with me and listed a bunch of ways that I turn her off. In retrospect, most of them sounded like either bullshit or some kind of issue with her. That's what got me started thinking about how her past abuse might be making it hard to work on our sex life. I mulled this over for a couple of days during which time I was pretty mopey and then I brought it up to her. She said she didn't think her abuse had anything to do with our problems and I didn't push it further. She started talking about how we got together really young and we have moved apart over the years. I asked her if she was thinking about separating and she got angry at me like how could I possibly think that from what she said? She asked me what if our sex life never changes, what if she never wants more than what we have now? I told her I don't know for sure. That being in a relationship means living with ambiguity but that the stakes are high for me and something needs to change. She gave me the cold shoulder all the next day. I stayed happy and did my thing. This morning she warmed up a little and gave me peck on her way out the door.

Maybe it was wrong to have that conversation now. I'm impatient sometimes and I think I'm moving into a new phase where fixing door handles and staying fit isn't enough and I need to work on leadership in order to improve my general situation. I know that she can't change how she feels about me even if she wants to. I guess I was looking for some kind of commitment to work on things with me and that's never going to work.

@brianc - your suggestions make a lot of sense. I do occasionally ask for things. She usually does them but there's often a lot of resistance and whining. It was a pretty painful project to get her to do dishes consistently on a schedule that works for me since I need the kitchen ready to make dinner when I get out of work.

I have tried to get the family involved in projects together. My son and I do a lot of things together but my wife?partner? (the marriage thing seems obvious now) rarely gets involved. I've tried asking her, not asking her, telling her. If it's a project she was already thinking about then we usually end up in a power struggle. She wants to do things her way and wants me to follow. If I talk about how I think things should be done, she accuses me of being inflexible and controlling. I usually give up and she does her thing and I do mine. The quintessential example is the garden and yard. I have a passion for food and growing it myself. She loves to garden. Our son loves being outside and is fascinated by food plants. Sounds like a winner but it's been an ongoing struggle. I do a lot of research and come up with a plan. She gets defensive and says I'm controlling then I give up. The garden went to hell last season partly because I didn't put in any time since there was zero joy in it for me. This season, she'll be in school and won't have time for the garden so I'm going to be able to implement my own plans without a fight. This seems like a good opportunity. If she wants to help in the garden she'll need to take direction from me.

Lots of things are occurring to me as I'm writing. I see this pattern in other areas of our life, too. Parenting, for instance. I know I have been critical of her and kind of an asshole about stuff in the past but I think she also gets defensive when I try to take the lead and I assume she's right about me being too aggressive/controlling and back off when really I need to take a stand.

It's amazing how helpful it is to share this stuff with people.

Eightbit

You cannot have a phase four discussion in phase one or it ends up like yours did. Stfu and show her what you mean with actions. Not words.

BrianC

The kind of resistance that you are running into is pretty normal when you have fallen into the sexless marriage trap.  Right now she has been the leader for so long it is a comfortable rut for her.  Pulling her out of it is going to be hard,  It is going to require a lot of action on your part.  Once you have started doing a lot and talking a little, she'll see that you are going places - fun places - and will start following of her own free will.

During this phase, your wife will not play fair.  making you feel like a controlling asshole will be a fitness-testing tactic she will use.  Being firm and refusing to back down will establish that you have the right to make requests.

Do you get much flak for past behaviour when you were more critical?

Conversations about sex rarely get you valuable answers at this stage in the game.  People have a habit of rationalizing not wanting to do things with complex, confusing reasons.  At the time that it is coming out of their mouth, they believe it to be true, but it is rarely what's really going on.  It is hard for anyone but the most absolutely self-aware and self-possessed person to simply say "I'm just not feeling attracted to you."

Losing weight and conquering depression (that's a hell of a battle isn't it?) are great starts.  it sounds like you have cleared most of the major energy-draining Red situations out of your life already.  There's probably only a few things left that are actively draining her attraction to her.  Now you can start building an upward momentum of attraction from her.

Not all dominant behaviours are attractive to all women.  The real trick is going to find the ones that turn her on and do those.  Art and music are a huge turn on, so starting there is good.  It might help to tell us what kind of guy you were when you were first together.  Maybe we can pick out how to press her buttons more effectively.

The other half is honing your loving, comfort-building activities to a fine edge. Some of the things you do to say "I love you" might work, but others might make you seem servile and turn her off.  The real pity is that during the honeymoon phase of our relationship, everything seems sweet, even the stuff that would turn her off later.  Your best bet to figure out what works and what doesn't is to look at how she shows affection to her family and to your son.  Then you can do the stuff that works and tone down the stuff that doesn't.

On the marriage thing - consider this something of an end goal.  You certainly don;t want to commit to a wedding right now when you don;t have the relationship you want.  But when things are looking up for you, it may be a great way to let her know how much you like the momentum that you are seeing.

When you ask for something from her, I find certain formulations tend to work really well in phrasing your request. One that works really well is to start by stating the goal, getting buy0in or feedback, saying what you are going to do, then asking for them to cooperate by doing a specific action.

For example:
"Sweetheart I have a vision for our garden this year: have a look at this sketch I made.  What do you think? ...I'll do the landscaping here, here, and here to make it happen.  What I would like you to do to help this week is to till the rows here."

or:
"Babe, I want to give you a romantic dinner tonight: white wine, soft music, pesto tilapia. What do you say? ...I'll pick up the wine on the way home and something for desert.  You do the cooking, and get the kid fed a little early. I'll find a good distraction for him while we eat. We'll pick out some tunes together."

MrTrail

@brianc

Do you get much flak for past behaviour when you were more critical?

Yes. I have been working on this for a long time but she still takes things like I am attacking her, sometimes.

Not all dominant behaviours are attractive to all women.  The real trick is going to find the ones that turn her on and do those.  Art and music are a huge turn on, so starting there is good.  It might help to tell us what kind of guy you were when you were first together.  Maybe we can pick out how to press her buttons more effectively.

I was very intensely focused on music. I was recording all the time, playing shows and DJing. The first time we hooked up was after a party I was DJing. Everything else in my life took a back seat. I was not romantic at all except for the occasional song I would make for her. I was kind of a dick to her, really. I took her for granted, got involved with other women early on. I was in a bit of a downward spiral with substance abuse and I decided to make a big change so I told her I was leaving to go across the country and she could come if she wants. She decided to go with me and traveled for awhile. I set my mind on going to music school and I failed to get in because of one shitty grade in high school. It was a pretty big blow. I had so much invested in the idea of becoming a musician and after that I started to slowly pull away from it.

When you ask for something from her, I find certain formulations tend to work really well ...

I am going to work on this. Thanks for the tips.

Tiger

 She said she has a lot of anxiety about sex with me and listed a bunch of ways that I turn her off. In retrospect, most of them sounded like either bullshit or some kind of issue with her. 

She is not attracted to you right now, you are not the guy who she wants to have an affair with, you are the guy who is the father of her children and who provides her comfort and support.  She knows that she should want sex with you, but her body agenda is not sending her those signals.  You can't logic her into wanting sex with you, and neither can she.  Since she doesn't understand what is wrong she is unable to explain it to you and so her reasons don't resonate with you.  She's not doing it intentionally, she simply does not understand what is happening most likely.

We call this the hamster, the ability to try to rationalize the behavior that your body agenda wants.

You need to be awesome, get her attracted to you again by running your MAP then her body agenda will be be telling her to lay you like tile and she will find ways to rationalize that behavior.  

BrianC

Okay, so either she wants an artist or a bad boy. Let's dust off the leather jacket while we are talking about steps to take.

On the past neglect, I recommend having a read through my article The Art of the Apology, and formulate a single, powerfully-worded, mea culpa. Let her know that you regret that behaviour, and you have worked hard to change your communication styles, that you are still adjusting. And that you are not that guy anymore.  What you want now is to make your life, her life, and your son's life the best it can be.

After that, you should not let her bring it up again.  When she does you can simply remind her "I'm not that man anymore."  You need to break from the past there, and then draw a boundary.

Oh, and writing her a song? That is top-notch panty remover. Do that a few weeks from now.    Then report back once you get feeling back in your legs.

MrTrail

Well, I've got my work cut out for me. Thanks for the support, all. I will report back.

The_Dude

"She said she has a lot of anxiety about sex with me and listed a bunch of ways that I turn her off."

I agree with @Tiger on the real diagnosis but I'd like to hear what those reasons were.

MrTrail

@the_dude She says I have bad timing (not in the mood in the morning, too tired at night, too busy during the day, doesn't want to have to shower), my approach is too aggressive or sometimes not assertive enough, says I could work on my technique but won't tell me about her preferences and she gets off 99% of the time. She also says she feels too much pressure, which I get. I tried not initiating for about 5 weeks and there was no change.

I've played the game of trying to fix these things but there always seems to be something new and things just get worse. I'm now trying to let go of expectations around sex without withdrawing all affection.

MrTrail

One other thing I forgot on the anxiety issue: she says when I am sexual with her during the day and she knows I want to have sex that night she gets really anxious about it because then she has to say no later "if she changes her mind" and feel guilty for my feelings of rejection. I can't convince her that I've changed, I guess I just have to let it sink in longer.

The_Dude

Yeah. Pretty standard fare. Just stop talking to her about it and run a good map. Eventually you'll destabilize the relationship. Patience.