Discussing Communication and Conflict Issues for Atheists Married to Christians

Mongrel

I didn't see a topic on this with a search, so have risked starting one. First, I want to be clear:  I don't want this thread to turn into some sort of debate over atheism vs belief.  That shit is boring.  Either you believe, or you don't.  Arguing with strangers doesn't change anyone's mind, so please don't try it.  That's not what I'm here for.

Why did I start this topic?  Because I'm an atheist married to a Christian.  And that's a potential problem.  It's a dangerous DLV to the other party, should it ever really become exposed.  Currently, we both sort of ignore the elephant (well, she more than I).  I'm curious how others who may have found themselves in the same situation have dealt with it.  I know @AtholKay is one, but don't know if it was ever a problem for him.  Here's where I'm at:

When we got married, she was (and is) a church-goer.  I was basically indifferent, and she knew I wasn't a fan of organized religion but at the time I didn't dismiss the entire idea of God.  Frankly, I didn't give religion much thought most of my life, but I do recall sitting in church with my parents when I was a lad of 5-10 and thinking "This all seems kind of silly".  I quit going to church when I hit my teen years and never looked back, but never thought about my beliefs much either.  Post-marriage, I actually took the time to do some research into various religions because I didn't know what I actually did believe.  Christianity just didn't work for me.  Judaism...nah.  I looked into Buddhism for awhile but it didn't feel right either.  To shorten the story, I looked around, didn't think much of any of it, and after a few years finally concluded that I didn't buy any of it.  And that's where I am now.  

DW and I have had a few brief conversations about what we believe.  They typically don't end well, because I will ask her questions she either can't or doesn't want to answer because it will make her look bad.  My wife is an aggravatingly typical church-goer, in that she does it and believes it simply because her parents did and told her it is so.  She's a blind follower.  I'd be much more understanding if she arrived there via some introspection, but she hasn't.  She also picks and chooses what she likes from the Bible (she has a tattoo, loves to eat shellfish, etc) and ignores the hypocrisy.  When I've been with her in church, she frequently is distracted during the sermon and probably couldn't tell you what it was about when it's over.  There's more, but you get the picture.  On this issue I've always practiced STFU because there isn't going to be any good that comes out of 'discussing' it.

OTOH, I've read NMMNG and it makes a big deal about owning who you are and not being afraid to say it.  I'm not afraid to tell my friends (in private, no wife) that I'm an atheist should the topic come up (I don't push it) but actually saying as a clear statement to my wife "I'm an atheist"...no.  I don't see what benefit it has.  She kind of knows, but dismisses it as probably-not-real since I've never actually said it. Am I afraid of her? No.  I'm more afraid of the DLV it will result in that I don't see any upside to. BTW, we have no kids, so that's a non-issue.

I'm curious what, if any, experiences others have had with spouses who are polar opposite on the religion issue. 

Elaine

How is your relationship other than this concern?  As a Christian I think it is extremely alarming that a spouse would not know their spouse is an atheist.  All the religious/ soul/ afterlife conversations aside ( I totally get that is not your concern or question) - it just seems to be a "tell" that there is a closeness that is lacking in the relationship. Do you feel like you know each other fairly well other than this or do you feel that you have drifted apart and have lost that intimacy?  Intimacy as in an inner knowledge of each other, not necessarily bedroom intimacy. 

Persephone

@mongrel, My boyfriend and I are in a similar place. We come from a culture that often polls as one of the most Christian groups in America. 'We' tend to go to church weekly and most nights during the week. When you ask our women what they look for in a partner, one of the most common answers is, I want him to be a god-fearing, godly man.

Not I.

I mean, sure, growing up, we went to church occasionally, for holidays and such, but my parents are not holy rollers (although my mother is a believer). I always thought, and still do, that I missed so much of the 'black experience' by not attending a church regularly, by not having a church family. You know. But I am who I am (teehee)... which is somewhat of a solo practicioner, pagan-thing.

I tend to keep this to myself generally, but having been with my bf so long, it eventually came up. He's been very cool about it. He even reads some of my books sometimes (ie, 'The Jesus Mysteries', which he recommended to his mom) or we discuss others (like, 'When God was a Woman'). I even got him to reconsider his stance on astrology (thanks, Genesis 1:14).

I kept him in the loop. As I progressed, we talked about what I was reading and thinking. When he didn't agree, he said so. We had some good debates. He thinks I'm one of the more intelligent people he knows and therefore respected my opinion as well-researched and fact-based (well, as much as spirituality can be). He might not agree, but he respects both the journey and the knowledge I've gained. That's good enough for me.

Olddog

I'm a non-believer and my ex was raised in a very traditional Catholic church.
But maybe it's because it wasn't that a big an issue for ME.

I got married in his mother's church, because it meant something to them (I didn't convert though). Both my kids are Catholic and attend/ed Catholic schools. We would attend the bigger celebrations/masses as a family, but again, from my POV it was because the ceremony/tradition of it meant something to them, especially his mother.
Maybe some would consider that DLV because I was going against my 'beliefs', but frankly, I don't really care b/c I think it was/is more important for my kids to recognize their heritage and a show of respect for my MIL/their grandmother.

We did discuss religious views, but rarely, b/c like you say, not much good was going to come of it.
The kids both know I'm a non-believer, but they've never asked me outright about it and it's not something I  'educate' them on (although they did hear my father's opinions over the years).
I believe my kids as they get older will make their own decisions on if they want to follow their faith, or not, or maybe they'll find a new one. If they don't that's ok, and if they do, that's ok too.
Without trying to get controversial, I know people who's faith has brought them comfort when they really need it (and who I am I to tell them they're wrong, just because 'I' don't get it?).

So, I don't see why you need to challenge her over her beliefs, you don't really believe you're going to 'convert' her do you? Does she bring up your lack of attendance/beliefs? The 'kinda knows' seems a bit BSy to me... I'd say she does know, even if she 'dismisses' it.

We had lots of issues over the years, but this wasn't one of them.

TPoke

I don't know any atheists personally, but one concern I would have in a relationship would be the lack of moral compass thing. That would be close to a deal-breaker for me as far as an LTR. For example Buddhists have a moral code that says they shouldn't kill, even if sometimes ignored. I'm not very religious but I generally prefer the rest of society to be believers. Pre-Christian Roman civilization was amoral and brutal. I would think an easier sell would be Agnosticism relationshipwise. 

Good luck keeping this thread from becoming a debate... All you need is to add politics and it will be impossible. 

Persephone

TPoke said:

I don't know any atheists personally, but one concern I would have in a relationship would be the lack of moral compass thing. That would be close to a deal-breaker for me as far as an LTR. For example Buddhists have a moral code that says they shouldn't kill, even if sometimes ignored. I'm not very religious but I generally prefer the rest of society to be believers. Pre-Christian Roman civilization was amoral and brutal. I would think an easier sell would be Agnosticism relationshipwise. 

Good luck keeping this thread from becoming a debate... All you need is to add politics and it will be impossible. 

 
And how, pray tell, do you expect him to keep this thread from being a debate when you just lobbed several molotov cocktails into it? :-\"

Mongrel

Yeah, @TPoke, your whole 'moral compass' hand grenade was thinly veiled.  [-X  I could educate you on the topic, but then I'd shit up my own thread. So, moving on...

@Olddog, the "kinda knows" equates to = all the signs are there, she's not stupid, but she chooses to ignore it/live in denial.  So yes, she knows...but what she really thinks about it, I have little idea. 

@Elaine, also see above.  Intimacy...hmmm, how do you define non-physical intimacy? I am expressive when it comes to thoughts, and I can be about feelings but...my DW is not one to share her feelings, so I wind up not doing it much either (no quid pro quo).  On the outside, that probably sounds pretty horrible, but she is not a touchy-feely kind of person (nor is her family) so this dynamic has worked for 23 years for us.  Debate if you want if that effects the bedroom stuff; I don't know.  I think we do know each other extremely well, which is why we rarely ever have anything approaching a 'fight'; usually disagreements that rarely last more than a day or two. 

SomeDude

@Mongrel I say bring it out in the open, make your philosophy clear, especially how you see morals working in the absence of faith or a definitive rule book.

I'm an atheist/Buddhist (and yes they work together just fine) and my ex, who was a non-practicing catholic, knew this very well going into us getting married. Our differences - i.e. my explicit lack of faith, and her implicit one - only came out when we had our son. She wanted to get him baptized "just in case", and I refused. He can decide what he wants to believe in when he gets older, and this whole "unbaptized babies/children don't go to heaven" bullshit can fuck right off.

Britguy68

I'm a non believer (I hate the word 'atheist', it's a label given to me by others because I dont accept their doctrine).

My wife is a believer of sorts, ie she believes in a higher power, she just doesn't subscribe to any particular deity. We generally have learned not to discuss religion in our household, it usually doesn't end well. But it don't see it as a DLV.

BTW I also eat puppies for breakfast and I shoot old ladies with a sniper rifle trying to make it across crosswalks.

Thank God for morals!

Elaine

Mongrel said:

 @Elaine, also see above.  Intimacy...hmmm, how do you define non-physical intimacy? I am expressive when it comes to thoughts, and I can be about feelings but...my DW is not one to share her feelings, so I wind up not doing it much either (no quid pro quo).  On the outside, that probably sounds pretty horrible, but she is not a touchy-feely kind of person (nor is her family) so this dynamic has worked for 23 years for us.  Debate if you want if that effects the bedroom stuff; I don't know.  I think we do know each other extremely well, which is why we rarely ever have anything approaching a 'fight'; usually disagreements that rarely last more than a day or two. 

I am not a touchy feely person either, so I don't see that as any hindrance.  It doesn't bother me or make me uncomfortable when my husband shares his feelings or when others do, I'm just not one to usually be overly emotional.  For us it doesn't necessarily translate to the bedroom.  When we do share something I think it usually creates a stronger sense of intimacy, or a stronger bond to one another though. 

I'm not sure how to view the lack of fighting.  H and I have been married for over 16 years.  I think we had maybe 2 fights (actually pretty minor) the entire first 14 years.  I always thought it was a good thing.  But in our case it wasn't.  Neither of us felt strongly enough to actually fight.  We lacked the passion required for a real fight.  We loved each other, but we didn't let the other one "in" enough to invoke that kind of aggressive response.  We knew each other well, which allowed us to avoid the triggers that could potentially make things get ugly.  It wasn't worth the hassle. Once we let down the barriers and stopped being  "roommates" things changed.  We actually started having actual fights.  We found the passion that had been lacking.  We each had previously felt the other one holding back, so in turn we held ourselves back. Kind of like what you described with your no quid pro quo reference. Why would I give him all of me if he didn't give me all of him type logic.  Defense mechanism in our case I guess.  I'm not really sure.  We lived a lot of years as great friends, as great parents, as polite teammates, but lousy spouses.  So on paper that doesn't sound too terribly bad.  In reality it was a very lonely marriage, it was more like a business arrangement.  We didn't have that non-physical intimacy that separates a marriage from a friendship. 

I'm not sure how to actually define non-physical intimacy.  I never even knew it existed until a year or two ago.  I just knew that there had to be more to a marriage than what we had.  Once we both stopped holding back, once we were "all in", we found the intimacy we had been lacking. Communication was a big part of it.  Like how you mention that you don't have to say your an atheist, but you think she would have to realize it.  We lived like that for years (not about religion but life in general).  We had very weak communication skills that prevented us from sharing things with one another, and kept us from really hearing what the other person was actually saying. It was very easy to turn a blind eye and go about business as usual since we essentially got along. Once we improved communication and shared our thoughts (some feelings but nothing major) on various things we became a stronger couple.   It is like some sort of deeper inner understanding and desire to comfort/please each other.  It goes along with the mutual onitis Athol mentions. 

At that point our stronger intimacy outside of the bedroom definitely translated into an exponentially stronger intimacy inside the bedroom.  We crossed the threshold into a level of trust and passion that allowed us to take things to the next level.  We didn't even know there was a next level so it was a hell of a bonus.   

So I guess that is what I am asking you.  Do you and your wife share that passion?  On the physical side it is that I have to have you now feeling.  On the non-physical side it is the you are the one that I choose to never live without . It becomes difficult to realize where she ends and you begin, you kind of create a new stronger entity together.   The whole point of a team is to create something better and stronger than the individuals would be able to achieve separately.  Do you feel like 2 separate people just living together, or do you feel you have created a team together that is better than anything you could or would want to create separately?  Hopefully some of this makes sense.  I'm trying to get a better picture overall to see how this lack of knowledge or acknowledgement fits into the grand scheme.  Does she really know what makes you, you?   If she does she may just being giving you a free pass on the religion aspect, especially since you are ok with raising the children that way.  How do you see this fitting into the overall picture?  Do you see this as a possible lack of attention from her, like she doesn't know you that well?  Or do you think you have a pretty strong intimacy and she just skips over this aspect?

Feel free to ask for clarification if this doesn't seem to make sense or be related to the bigger picture I am trying to see.  my sleeping pill is kicking in so it may not be as helpful as I'm hoping...

Katerina_Minola

Historically speaking, "atheism" is pretty new. Even the pre Christian Romans and Greeks had gods. But what I found interesting when I studied those cultures is that their deep and extensive systems of ethics were not as caught up with the principles and practices of religion as they later became - I other words you didn't do the right thing because God was watching, you did it because you believes in the concepts of the Right and the Good.
The work of the famous Roman statesman Cicero was held in such high regard by Christians down the centuries that it was said he should have been known as 'Saint Cicero', also that he surely would have been a great Christian if he had only been born a century or so later.
The faith that comes closest to working for me acknowledges that the central figure of each major religion comes with social teachings suited best to a particular place and time and with spiritual teachings that remain constant. What tends to remain constant is what I had already come to know as ethical thought.
My point then is that our culture is based on a long tradition of ethical thought which actually seems to have elements common in all human society. Separating the pious (as in the outward show of faith like being seen at church or praying in public), the spiritual (what you feel exists beyond the scope of your human understanding or senses) and the ethical (how to be the most awesome member of society you can be) and working out what actually matters to you both sounds more the thing than whether you attend X or Y place of worship or literally believe something otherwise implausible.

Mongrel

@Elaine, wonderful post, and I understood most of it.

"We knew each other well, which allowed us to avoid the triggers that could potentially make things get ugly."

This is probably true. Additionally, there is the background of our own parents:  hers rarely had fights (raised voices, slamming doors) while mine had them regularly and I hated them, so probably work to avoid that scene in my own marriage.  Even at our worst, I can calmly (mostly) state my piece with a hard edge and then just go away and let her simmer with it. She just gets silent/bitchy and never confronts. These circumstances are extremely rare.  I do feel we have a peculiar dynamic compared to most people but on the surface it seems to work. You make some excellent points, though, about how this could be a negative.

"So I guess that is what I am asking you.  Do you and your wife share that passion?  On the physical side it is that I have to have you now feeling.  On the non-physical side it is the you are the one that I choose to never live without ."

Physical side = no. Certainly not, which is why I'm here. I have it more than she does, but then that may also be my male reproductive biology talking.  Very, very, very rarely have I seen a "I want you NOW" vibe from her.  On the non-physical side, she has definite one-itis about me, no question.  I doubt it's as much passion as it is comfort, familiarity and a moral distaste for ever calling it quits.  As for me...I don't have oneitis, at least not anymore.  I was very close to the point of stepping out/shopping for a candidate until I found this place (luckily, never really acted on it).  I have come to realize that I 'settled' for this relationship because I thought it was what I deserved back when I was 25; I didn't see me being attractive to anyone smarter, sexier, more ambitious, etc etc.  She was into me, I did love her, and figured it was the best I would ever get.  Only now, 25 years later, do I see that I was selling myself short.  However, this does not mean I do not love my DW and want to stay with her.  That whole 'grass is greener' concept is a Catch-22 and I simply don't entertain it.  My DW is a good woman, a good person and a good partner who will always be there for me.  I'd be a fool to toss that aside for some notion of a higher SR babe now.  She is capable of giving me what I need in life, she just isn't currently attracted enough to be bothered putting forth the effort.

Straying a bit OT here, but it's relevant to your post.

liquid

When you married, you "didn't dismiss the entire idea of God" and she was a professing Christian? I think the shoe is on the other foot - it is a DLV for a woman to marry a man that does not share her beliefs and then hide from that fact. Spiritually dishonest. The truth may make her think less of you, but she doesn't really think well of you (in this area), she just pretends to make herself feel better.

Unless you mean that coming out as an atheist will lower her value in her social circle? Because it also sounds like, for her, being a Christian is a.....lifestyle thing, rather than a deeply held, well-thought out set of beliefs about the world or an experience of a personal relationship with Christ. So, she might be more concerned abuot how others see her because of you.

(I am a Christian but I was trying to be as neutral as possible - hope I am doing a good job!)

Mongrel

@liquid, since I never was really religious I never put much 'weight' on it.  I agree that the person who holds the beliefs has the larger responsibility...if we had ever had children, YIKES, there would be big problems in determining how they should be brought up. I have no idea what her thinking on this was.  Maybe (at 23) she was foolish enough to think I would follow her lead with religion; I have no idea. Young and dumb, we both were.

I do believe that facing my atheism would make her suffer in the eyes of her family (parents, anyway), church friends, etc. 

"Because it also sounds like, for her, being a Christian is a.....lifestyle thing, rather than a deeply held, well-thought out set of beliefs about the world or an experience of a personal relationship with Christ."

This is how I see it, but she would paint a much different picture.  She teaches Sunday school, for crying out loud!  Yet, what I see is someone hardly devout in their actions.  She'll come right home after teaching her class and not attend the church service. I could provide countless examples of her Sunday-only pious-ness. I think that adds to some of my frustration? over the topic. 

I welcome everyone's opinion.  I don't hate on religion like a lot of rabid atheists; I've seen the good it can accomplish as well as the evil.  Everyone's opinion is welcomed up to the point they start preaching.

liquid

Do you share your social circle? I mean, are you involved in the church enough that her friends' husbands are your friends?

Because if you tell her what you think/feel, she does not have to share it with her parents or pastor unless she chooses to.

Operation_Barbarossa

I don't think of religion or "God" in a typical way. Most people think of God as some old dude with a beard who runs the universe and judges whether people are good or evil.

I simply think God IS the universe and religion is a way of celebrating the universe, life, and the idea that we are all connected in some way.

I don't put a label on this belief and I don't think you should necessarily put a label on whatever you believe or don't believe in. Everyone has their own idea of God or religion and typically it changes over time, you don't have to apologize or explain to a bunch of strangers what your particular views are.

Kheldar

My wife & I are both atheists. The fact that we see eye-to-eye on this issue has strengthened our marriage. In college, I dated a couple of religious girls for reasonably long periods of time. At the time, I didn't think mixed opinions would be too much of an obstacle to a happy marriage, but, in retrospect, I think it very much would have been once kids came on the scene.

The discovery of the scientific method and the Enlightenment are very important to me as milestones in human history. If I had a wife who undermined the value of those milestones for my children by disregarding evolution or the Big Bang in favor of the less plausible Biblical version of creation, I would be pretty hot under the collar. 

TPoke

@Kheldar Scientific method and enlightenment are not milestones exclusive to Atheism. In fact the big bang theory you're fond of was initially composed by a priest.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Lemaître

It's things like this that have me lump the atheists in with the radical fundamentalist, since they are both so absolutely sure of something that cannot be proven or disproven.

Kheldar

TPoke said:

@Kheldar Scientific method and enlightenment are not milestones exclusive to Atheism. In fact the big bang theory you're fond of was initially composed by a priest. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Lemaître It's things like this that have me lump the atheists in with the radical fundamentalist, since they are both so absolutely sure of something that cannot be proven or disproven.

Yeah, but the point is that where the Bible and scientific observations are in conflict you have to ditch or rationalize the Bible, not the science. Priests and religious people who recognize the primacy of scientific observation with respect to the workings of the natural world over received wisdom from religious texts are people I can get along with just fine. Those who cling to the writings of bronze age shepherds in the face of evidence to the contrary are tougher to deal with.

John3

If you spend any time in your marriage trying to disprove your partner's fundamental (examined or otherwise) beliefs in science, creation, God, or the Republican Party, it's a DLV, IMO.  So is laying in wait, knowing that you are Right and they are wrong, watching for the opportunity to trip them up.  In fact, I think any assumed superiority by one party over another is a huge DLV in a marriage, and will create significant problems at some point. If you don't share mutual respect for your spouse's views on what is the single most polarizing concept in world history for which there is no clear resolution, you are bound for trouble. There are hundreds of online forums with well educated, passionate people who want to argue their perspectives on these issues until judgment day comes (or doesn't).

Having kids will bring this to the forefront, because parents want their kids to believe as they do.  Forcing kids into religious training from a young age is one example.  Forcing kids to wait until they are older is another. Ditto for participating/not participating in religious ceremonies.

If you aren't giving and getting respect with a touch of humility on this issue, it's not going to go well for you.

 

liquid

Geez. @Mongrel specifically asked that this not turn into a debate about atheism vs belief. He has a particular issue - can't everyone stick to that?