Help WideAwake turn this around - Intro and Triage

WideAwake

Intro:

I'm 45 and my wife is 43.  We met and started dating just after my HS graduation.  Dated for 5 years (to get through college, get jobs) before getting married.  Waited 6 years to start having kids (again, getting our careers and advanced degrees on track).  3 kids from HS age to elementary school age. We both have good families that live nearby, 

Triage:

Q1:  Medical - My wife had a Mirena IUD for 4 years, it was removed 6 months ago.  She has always had irregular cycles, even when she was on the pill. Now I’ve had a vasectomy and we’re using nothing.  Periods are still a bit irregular, heavy and long (7 days minimum).  She also has frequent issues with her hip, digestive system (not feeling well after eating, not having a bm for several days), gets headaches.

Q2:  Structural Attraction – We both make significant 6 figure incomes but hers is nearly double mine.  This is new in the past 6 years; hasn’t seemed to be an issue.  We use this money to live in a nice house, prep for retirement and fund the kids college educations.

Q3:  Critical Neglect – Many years ago (20+) I refused sex one night and said I was not in the mood as “we had both put on some weight”.  Didn’t go over well at the time, but it was true.  I wasn’t liking how I was looking/feeling or how she was looking/feeling about herself.  Never another word said until the end of last year she brought it up.  I did turn into a bit of a lazy bear husband from 2009-2012 where my evening routine consisted of parking myself in front of whatever sporting event was on TV and having some snacks, then bed.  Got to be 60 pounds overweight and wasn’t happy with myself.  Started my MAP in May 2012 after hearing that a colleague had told her that he loved her.  What had REALLY happened is that the colleagues wife had caught them via a hotel receipt from a conference they were both at and uncovered their affair.  Somehow, they managed to message it to me that it was just this "I love you" and that was it.  No kissing or anything.  Like a complete beta schlub, I bought it.  I remember I brought up one time that I felt that I was out of the loop - of the 4 people involved I was the only one not getting info directly.  Like a doormat, I proposed that I call the wife of this other man to chat - that was met with much fury and excuses and contempt for me from my wife.  Like a doormat, I backed down and trusted her.  After all, we'd been married for 20 years!

WideAwake

Part 2...

Q4:  Outside sexual sources – I thought no (see me previous posts) but it was all bullshit.  2 year affair with a colleague from across the country that was fueled by their mutual travel to conferences. DDay in late 2012 after I discovered and confronted her. Marriage counseling right away and that helped somewhat.

Q5:  When did it go bad - Pregnancy shut down her sex drive completely. She breastfed each kid for a 6 months, which also shut things down.  Long spread between child 2 and child 3 and the third pregnancy was painful and sex was 100% gone.

Q6: Start of the relationship - Sex was great at the start.  We were young (me in college, her in HS) and we were each other’s firsts.  While we weren’t seeing each other every day, we were having sex every time we were together.  It was hot, passionate though somewhat bland.  As we gained more experience with each other is just kept getting better and better.  Even between kids, the frequency went down but quality was up.  Sex really dropped off in late 2007 after the birth of our last child.  Maybe average 3-4 times per month at best.  My drive dropped off too, got into a routine of hearing the preemptive excuses before bed (I’m so tired, I feel so bloated, I have such a headache, I have such a kink in my hip) so I would not initiate.

WideAwake

Part 3...

Q7: Elephant in the room – Her 2 year physical affair and, more recently, she found that I was tracking her personal e-mail on my phone without her knowledge.  Also, at the time of the discovery of her affair I had used various tech methods (including a keylogger) to gain access to her information.  She had everything screwed down TIGHT (multiple phones, multiple laptops, passwords) so I had to do some fairly drastic measures. I had told her that I had removed it, but I did not.  I was using it to verify that I could trust her (at least that is what I told myself), but it really turned into a obsession/compulsion.  I was really using as a crutch instead of rebuilding trust between us.  Didn’t find anything anyway.  Now she is upset and our recovery process has been kicked WAY back.  Meeting with the marriage counselor soon again.  Also, she travels 90-120 days per year in her current job.  She’s just transitioning to a new one that will be quite similar in the travel demand department.  Lots of conferences around the US at some VERY nice locations.  We, as a family, very rarely get to go along and if we do we are not any part of her work (like a guest at dinner).  We’re there, she works and the kids and I will find our own stuff to do until she’s free. 

WideAwake

Part 4...

Q7 Continued:Travel is really a tough one because it’s a “hot button” issue for her.  We’ve talked about it before, but if she feels even slightly that she is being criticized for the amount of travel (or even sometimes how it schedules out) it can quickly escalate into a massive argument.  Plus, travel as she is doing fueled the time she had to conduct her affair so it’s a real sore spot with me.  She talks about upcoming conferences in some very cool places and I can tell she is excited, but I just can’t get there – I don’t get to go.  I get to stay home and be a single parent for days on end AND try to get something done at my full time job.  Tough to let go of this feeling.  The other “hot button” topic is sexual frequency, that one can turn into WW3.  All of the normal BS…this is normal for people our age, so-and-so and her husband do it even less, maybe my hormones are out of whack, I just don’t need it like you, I just don’t think about it like you, it’s not at the top of my list, she feels pressured for sex, etc.  I’ve just stopped talking about it – I defined my need to her (via 5 Love Languages) as 3 times per week.  We average about 3 times per month.  However, if we have a big fight over travel or sex frequency it can be 2-3 weeks between sex.

Q8: Who's the leader – We both like to be in charge, she way more organized than me.  Been working to change that so we’re at least 50-50 on the leadership but we’ll defer to the other’s expertise. 

Q9:  Good times – Many, many, many!  We love our three kids tremendously, we’ve had some great vacations with and without them.  We always kiss before bed and say I love you.  Honestly, I think I’m in a AAAABFA type of marriage.  Where the B is for travel time away from us and the F is for sex frequency and enthusiasm on her part.

My MAP so far has primarily consisted of losing weight, dressing better all the time and performing "Acts of Service" for my wife as that is her primary Love Language.  I'm 6'2" and now weigh 200 pounds.  I went from a 40 waist to a 34 (and they are a bit loose).  I get tons of compliments from people, not so much from the wife.  She's about 40 pounds overweight.  Secondarily, I've been working to take the lead in more ways (I'm King, wife is Queen, kids are Serfs).  I try to be more decisive with things that do not require her input, I'm setting up time away for the two of us regularly, I'm initiating and doing drive-bys.  Her SR to me was higher to begin with and now, even since her affair and my weight loss, I still feel like her SR is higher although it might be with her additional weight.  Tough to be objective due to wife goggles and mother-of-my-children goggles. Hasn't changed a darn thing.

Help...please!

Mongrel

Good triage. The one takeaway I got was your wife is prone to explosive anger, and I'm betting you avoid pissing her off if possible. That's natural. But you're probably afraid of incurring her wrath. That's a tough thing to get past, but you can do it. You have to be/wwilling (stupid phone!) to make her mad and not care. When you achieve that, it's very liberating. Her anger just becomes background noise and you see it as the childish tantrum that it is. That's a cornerstone of O/I.

WideAwake

@Mongrel - you nailed it.  Not so much explosive anger, but she is very well spoken and can be a very tough person to argue with - she's good at it.  Doesn't help that I'm a natural "peacemaker" and desire to resolve things quickly and I'm not afraid to apologize.  She desires space and is slow to apologize.  This dynamic leads to me engaging too soon to try to resolve the conflict and probably coming off as a doormat again by apologizing too soon and then not receiving a return apology until later (if at all).

I don't like making her angry - that has been a little better since DDay as I had some serious anger on my side but has been doused as we've progressed.

Good advice, I'll add it to my MAP.

The_Dude

I don't have time today for a long discussion. She is pissed at you for tracking her after the affair. Do not apologize. She betrayed you in the most fundamental way possible. Her anger is unjustified. Understandable and maybe normal but unjustified. Like comparing stepping in someone's toes to shooting them in the gut.

Again, I wish I had more time to discuss this today. I have been where you are. I know what this feels like. I've repaired the marriage but the damage is going to last a long time. There are some really good strategies you can use to fix the marriage and fix yourself. Stick around, this is probably the best possible place you can go to get practical positive advice.
Have you bought he mmsl primer? If not, do that ASAP. It's very good in itself but it's also really helpful to read it so you have a common vocabulary an set of concepts to discuss this with people here.
Best regards.

Templar

Remember that the recovery process isn't her forgiving you for anything. SHE CHEATED - and not just once. Tough that she isn't happy with your forgiveness schedule. Did she ever reveal EVERYTHING that happened. That needs to occur.

She needs to be open with all passwords and communication and also SHE needs to work harder when she is away to stay in contact and engage her family.

Templar

Don't try to argue with her, either. Say your piece succinctly and be done.

WideAwake

The_Dude said:

She is pissed at you for tracking her after the affair. Do not apologize. She betrayed you in the most fundamental way possible. Her anger is unjustified. Understandable and maybe normal but unjustified.

@The_Dude - I've been following your posts for a very long time, I've just recently worked up the courage to throw all of this out there for all to see.  At a fundamental level, I'm ashamed of the whole thing.  I'm ashamed of her behavior, I'm ashamed that I was the lazy bear husband, I'm ashamed that we believed that we had the "easy" marriage and didn't have to work at it...then when it came time to have a hard discussion she didn't know how.  There are days where I don't know how to make it work.  There are days that are just "gone" where all I'm able to do is stew on this, and that sucks.

We're about 16 months out from DDay and I she had asked and I told her about how I found out.  I did not tell her about the keylogger.  Early on, after DDay, it was easy to justify my reading of her e-mail.  As time went on and she continued to prove herself, it became tougher but it also became tougher to stop for me - it was like a "fix" I had to have for reassurance.  It was stupid - if she really wanted to cheat again she would have gotten a second phone and/or a different e-mail like she did the first time.  So, to a point, I was really monitoring nothing.  I think at some level it felt like I was able to be in control, at least a little, after discovering that I had no control for the previous 2 years.

What she is upset about is that I lied about having it in place and that I was still monitoring her e-mail (keylogger was gone at about the 1 year point from DDay).

She has already expressed to me that she feels "quashed"...like she can't do anything.  She still traveled 100+ days last year without me or the kids, I never turned down a request for her to get together with her girlfriends, etc.  I wonder if what she's really feeling is guilt from the affair and guilt from being gone so much.  Truthfully, it is a monumental task sometimes to be a single parent with 3 children.  Plus my full-time work.

Please keep the advice coming - I need it.  Marriage counseling again (for the first time in several months) on Saturday.

WideAwake

Warrior39 said:

Has your wife gone no contact with the other man?  What happened to him?  Does she still see him at these events?  What type of guy is he? Hints of what your wife was needing/attracted to can be seen in the other man.  

Like @The_Dude said you have the right to be angry over the betrayal.   

On your physical side, what type of exercise are you doing?  Lifting?  

@Warrior39 - Yes, no contact (although no letter written).  We did send an e-mail together.  She has not seen him at any events, but there is that possibility in the future (I think).  Not sure, but his wife may have put the hammer down on him going to conferences.

He was the placating, admirer who just couldn't believe how she could possibly do all that she did for work and home and family.  He fed her mass amounts of admiration and she ate it up.  His marriage also was rocky so I believe he started opening up to her about that and then she could have a place to open up to him about me.  Just my thoughts here.

So far I've been focused on the cardio and diet.  Steady now at 200 for a year but I've got the frame to put on some serious muscle.  That is my next step.  Wish I had a mentor in that area.

WideAwake

Templar said:

Remember that the recovery process isn't her forgiving you for anything. SHE CHEATED - and not just once. Tough that she isn't happy with your forgiveness schedule. Did she ever reveal EVERYTHING that happened. That needs to occur.

She needs to be open with all passwords and communication and also SHE needs to work harder when she is away to stay in contact and engage her family.

@Templar - She cheated, they got caught by his wife.  I was kept in the dark somehow and then they just went deeper into the covert ops to continue their affair.  i caught them 5 months later and that is when I called the OM wife and she let me know about the previous incident.  She was floored and we shared some info over the next few days, then basically went no contact.  Truth is, the info I had could have been used to goo 100% scorched earth on both of them - no doubt they would have both lost their 6 figure jobs and been basically out of the whole industry (these people all know each other, or know somebody who knows you).

To her credit, she does do a great job of staying in contact with us now.  There are facetime sessions (more earlier, a lot less now but my need was much higher back closer to DDay) and I have the passcode to her phone.  Don't have passwords to other things, but didn't really need to push as I already had the info to get into her personal e-mail.

She has not revealed everything and that has remained a point of contention.  Early on, I asked for it but to be honest I'm not sure that would have done anything but added fuel to the fire. Later, I think I would have been better able to handle it.  Of course, it's presented as "I don't want to hurt you anymore" but I think the underlying reason is that she doesn't want to hurt herself anymore either.  I already had so much info that I was basically able to put together the pieces.  There are a few things though that can keep me up at night, or wake me up with a nightmare.  Sad that my imagination can turn against me at night so vividly!  Sucks.

WideAwake

And yes, I have the MMSL Primer.  Read it several times since Early 2012.

Templar

Do I have the time frame right that your kids were ALL born before the affair?

WideAwake

Templar said:

Do I have the time frame right that your kids were ALL born before the affair?

Yes, by a few years.

The_Dude

I would seriously consider an ultimatum regarding her job. I personally can't see how I would sleep at night with her out traveling so much.
Apart from that, what is your leverage overall. If you divorced, what would happen financially ( not suggesting you divorce). Just like to understand how you and she view the landscape.

And why do you think her sr is higher if your in 34" pants and she's 40lbs overweight?
All other things being equal, you could date 35 yo women. She'd have trouble dating men her own age.

Reading between the lines it seems like your more worried about her leaving than she is about you. You need to turn that around. There are lots of levers to pull but why are you afraid of her leaving?

The_Dude

And how did it go after dday? Was she broken down with remorse, apologizing, asking to stay? Or was it your fault and you begging her to stay?

Tiger

@WideAwake,

I think the question that you need to ask yourself is under what conditions are you willing to continue to remain married to her?  Or put another way, what could she do that would be a deal breaker for you, and how much if any of her current behavior falls in that category?  Because looking at this objectively it sounds like you could make a very good case to be the primary parent to your children, get her to pay you alimony and child support and go out and find yourself a hot woman 10 years younger than your current wife who has never cheated on you, would be around to help you parent your kids and would lay you like tile.

I get that you two have been together since High School and that is not something that should be thrown away lightly, but at the same time you are a catch in the prime of your life and you need to figure out what you want so that you can give her a chance to be that woman.  If she chooses not to then there are other options out there.  But so long as you continue to believe that you must preserve the marriage at all costs it sounds like she will continue to simply take what she wants and you have zero leverage.

But you are the prize here and you need to start to internalize that.

WideAwake

@The_Dude -

Why I think her sex rank is higher?  Well, she's beautiful and outgoing and engaging.  Plus, I still feel pretty worthless after finding out about the affair.  Tough to feel good when your wife chooses someone else over you.

The travel is tough, sometimes I'm overwhelmed but it does give me a lot of 1:1 (or 1:3) time with the kids.  I do not miss conferences or band concerts or sporting practices or games.  Not sure if this can change in her career and it was fine for years and years prior to the affair.

After DDay she was broken down, she was apologizing, she was setting up marriage counselors.  She's shown the remorse through words and some actions. I was extremely mad.  The one big thing that she absolutely hates (and I regret too, I was not in my right mind that day) was that I told her parents.  There was logistical reasons why I did, but if I could take one thing back that would be it.  They love me like a son and they are my 2nd parents and I love them dearly.  She had to go talk to them and is still mad about it.  The parents and I have never spoken of it since.

On one hand, I regret it.  On the other hand, they are the ONLY people that know.  Not our kids, not our families, not our friends, not her work colleagues.  So, the question that runs through my mind is: Look at what happened and who found out vs. who could have found out had things gone differently.  In that light, I don't think her parents knowing is the worst outcome that could have happened.  After all, she made these choices when she chose to engage in infidelity.

WideAwake

@Tiger - deal breaker would be another EA or PA.  She's not showing ANY of that behavior.

I absolutely want to preserve our marriage, it has been the best thing in my life.  Period.  I have a hard time thinking of throwing away 20+ years of us.

She's mad that she believed we were rebuilding our trust and now found out that I was working towards that same goal while monitoring her email even when I told her I was not.  I lied to her, plain and simple.  As justified as I felt when I started doing it, it wore off and became more of a crutch.  I would like to be where we were last week without the aid of my secret crutch.

Unfortunately, I think this has kicked us back in the recovery process considerably.  And it's my fault.

Saluki

I appreciate it when people are straight with me.  I hope you won't mind if I am with you. ... The way you dealt with her affair was a huge DLV.  Between that, her income relative to your's, and your apparently-low self-esteem, she is wearing the pants and probably resents you for it.

Stop accepting blame and start a MAP.