Help WideAwake turn this around - Intro and Triage

_io

Your wife is the leader in your marriage. You are very worried about her reactions and you seem to have a lot of guilt for the affair and its aftermath. You are guilty of abdicating leadership and getting lazy; that's what you need to fix. You are not guilty of cheating. She was a long-term cheater; she doesn't get to be indignant that you need reassurance she is being faithful now.

And her being mad at you for letting her parents know is bullshit. She made a decision to cheat on her family and then deceived everyone for two years, using numerous devious mechanisms to keep it hidden. This was not a one time oopsie. She is okay with humiliating you for two years, but she gets angry with you because her parents found out she was not their sweet little girl. Huh-uh. That's the chance you take.

Templar

Time to step up in the attitude. You sound like you have the dad gig under control. Time to reel her back in metaphorically and realistically. She runs the show so she does what she thinks she needs to do while you look for her approval. Time to stop that. Lying is not a good thing - obviously. It was in response to her affair. Most people have no clue how to respond to an affair, so she needs to just get over it. It isn't her whose trust needs to be rebuilt. You are focusing on the wrong person.

WideAwake

Thank you @Saluki, @_io and @Templar for the kick in the ass.  You've given me a lot to think about.

I found out at work, drove home and talked to a priest in our church and went to confession.  Then I went to her folks and talked to them.  Her Dad sobbed.  I told them then (like I told my wife) that I had no idea if we were going to be OK.

My wife was out of town on business (not with OM) when I found out.  We spoke late in the day and she already had a good idea that the gig was up based on my complete radio silence via cell, work and home phones.  I was supposed to be flying to meet her that weekend and I was not at all convinced that I would go.  We spoke via phone that night and she wanted to fly home immediately.  I told her she was not welcome in our home.  Over the next day we talked more and I would up flying to meet as we could have the alone time we needed for the discussions and our first marriage counselor meetings without worrying about the kids (who her folks were watching for us - that was the logistics part I needed to talk with them about).

She asked if she was allowed back home before we left and I said yes.  She thanked me and came home.

WideAwake

_io said:

You are very worried about her reactions and you seem to have a lot of guilt for the affair and its aftermath. You are guilty of abdicating leadership and getting lazy; that's what you need to fix. You are not guilty of cheating. She was a long-term cheater; she doesn't get to be indignant that you need reassurance she is being faithful now.

Yes, this pretty much nails it.

WideAwake

Saluki said:

I appreciate it when people are straight with me.  I hope you won't mind if I am with you. ... The way you dealt with her affair was a huge DLV.  Between that, her income relative to your's, and your apparently-low self-esteem, she is wearing the pants and probably resents you for it.

Stop accepting blame and start a MAP.

Another "bingo".  I do appreciate the straight talk.  Never had low self-esteem until the affair.  Makes you feel like you're worthless, like you don't and can't compare, unloved, unattractive and judged.  Pretty much the equivalent of something that she wiped off the bottom of her shoe.

Dealing with this has been, bar none, the most difficult thing I've ever had to overcome.  I will make it.  I don't wish this on anyone.

Templar

Now is the time to become awesome. Work on yourself. Stop looking for her approval. In the final analysis only you are responsible for how you lived. You have standards - regain the higher standards and push them higher. YOU ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR HER AFFAIR. Remember that!

WideAwake

@Templar - I'll try to remember that.  Being betrayed sucks.

I have disengaged from all "monitoring" activity of her at this time and I have no plans to continue.  Frankly, it's a waste of my time as if she really wanted to cheat again she would find a way.  I'm done with that - it's not good for me to be thinking about that crap all the time.

She's out of town until Thursday night, then to the marriage counselor on Saturday AM.  I may setup some individual sessions for myself too, we'll see.

Tiger

@Saluki makes a very good point, at this point your oneitis in your wife and belief that this marriage is worth preserving at any cost short of another affair is setting up a bad dynamic.  As strange as it sounds the way to preserve your marriage most likely involves you being willing to let it go.  Until you have the confidence to really believe that if push came to shove you could do better you will not be able to be the strong awesome man that you need to be to inspire her to start to make the tough choices that it takes to make this marriage work.

She has a pretty good gig right now, she gets to travel the world, she has a husband to take care of her family for her when she is gone, he even will forgive an affair.  She took that great life and your trust in her and she abused that trust about as horribly as one can.  So far as I can tell there have been no consequences to her actions, she is living exactly the same life now that she was before, she even believes that you are completely unreasonable for not trusting her.  She fucked another man, of course you don't trust her again.  You will never trust her in the same way again because she took that trust an abused it.  That cannot be undone, that cannot be changed.  Her actions mean that you will have to live with fact that she fucked someone else.  Her actions mean that she has to live with the fact that you now know that she fundamentally cannot ever be trusted in the same way that you were willing to trust her before.  If she can't live with that... There is the door.

Trust is not given, trust must be earned.

The only fault I see is your unwillingness to stand up and admit to both of you that it will take more than a few months of good behavior for you to stop monitoring her.  So long as she continues to travel on business, setting up the same conditions that lead to the affair, it will be impossible for you to not be concerned that she will use this opportunity to do the same thing.  For her to expect you do to that is not reasonable.  She needs to be completely transparent with her electronics, no passwords on anything, for me that would be a requirement to say married to a spouse who has cheated.  She lost her personal privacy the moment she fucked someone else.

Do not let her become the victim here, she is not, the missteps that you have made are insignificant in the face of her infidelity, and none of them would have occurred had she not had an affair.  Her parents finding out that she had an affair is a direct result of her having an affair, she bears the weight of that, all you did was expose the truth.  Exposing the reality of this situation is not your fault, she is the one who chose to do something that she is deeply ashamed of, that's on her, don't let her redirect that to you.

SignorePillolaRossa

Tiger said:

@Saluki makes a very good point, at this point your oneitis in your wife and belief that this marriage is worth preserving at any cost short of another affair is setting up a bad dynamic.  As strange as it sounds the way to preserve your marriage most likely involves you being willing to let it go.  Until you have the confidence to really believe that if push came to shove you could do better you will not be able to be the strong awesome man that you need to be to inspire her to start to make the tough choices that it takes to make this marriage work.

She has a pretty good gig right now, she gets to travel the world, she has a husband to take care of her family for her when she is gone, he even will forgive an affair.  She took that great life and your trust in her and she abused that trust about as horribly as one can.  So far as I can tell there have been no consequences to her actions, she is living exactly the same life now that she was before, she even believes that you are completely unreasonable for not trusting her.  She fucked another man, of course you don't trust her again.  You will never trust her in the same way again because she took that trust an abused it.  That cannot be undone, that cannot be changed.  Her actions mean that you will have to live with fact that she fucked someone else.  Her actions mean that she has to live with the fact that you now know that she fundamentally cannot ever be trusted in the same way that you were willing to trust her before.  If she can't live with that... There is the door.

Trust is not given, trust must be earned.

The only fault I see is your unwillingness to stand up and admit to both of you that it will take more than a few months of good behavior for you to stop monitoring her.  So long as she continues to travel on business, setting up the same conditions that lead to the affair, it will be impossible for you to not be concerned that she will use this opportunity to do the same thing.  For her to expect you do to that is not reasonable.  She needs to be completely transparent with her electronics, no passwords on anything, for me that would be a requirement to say married to a spouse who has cheated.  She lost her personal privacy the moment she fucked someone else.

Do not let her become the victim here, she is not, the missteps that you have made are insignificant in the face of her infidelity, and none of them would have occurred had she not had an affair.  Her parents finding out that she had an affair is a direct result of her having an affair, she bears the weight of that, all you did was expose the truth.  Exposing the reality of this situation is not your fault, she is the one who chose to do something that she is deeply ashamed of, that's on her, don't let her redirect that to you.

quoted so that the OP can read it again ... in fact, he should get this post tattooed in reverse on his chest so he can read it in the mirror every morning when he brushes his teeth

dude - do not apologize for the extended monitoring - it is her price of entry back into the marriage - you monitor anything you want whenever you want without apology ... indicate that you should have made that explicitly clear at the time of discovery, but nonetheless, that is the way it will forever be

WideAwake

Thanks guys - just re-reading this a few times and letting it sink in.

Monitoring is just BS though.  It's a huge reminder to me, everyday.  Plus, if she really wanted to she could easily get a burner phone, a different e-mail, etc.  Monitoring would only catch something if she was careless and if she thought it wasn't there.  Unfortunately, the saying "Integrity is doing the right thing even when nobody is watching" did not apply to her a couple years ago.  That said, she's behaved perfectly since DDay and has gone above/beyond to stay connected to me and the family.

Points still taken.  I absolutely agree with the statement that while I may learn to grant her trust again, it will NEVER be the same trust as she had before.  Maybe it never should have been to begin with...in any marriage.

Eightbit

Did she demand that you not monitor her post affair? Why did she ask if you were monitoring her and why did you lie?

zeroday

I was thinking recently of mate guarding and the reactive nature of female sex drive and the supposed dual mating strategy espoused by rollo and roissy. The idea that somehow you have to "feel" bad or dishonest for monitoring or supposing to monitor your wives activity is bs. If you were a king you would protect your land, family and resources...and sad to say but dudes be trying to plunder your shit. I always felts similar "if I am uptight or concerned and show it, that's dlv". True enough it is insecure but there is a difference between paranoia and marking your territory.




And be sure to read nmmng. Enmeshment is a bitch.

Tiger

I'm not telling you whether you should monitor or not.  If you believe that you don't want to monitor then don't. But the decision is yours not hers.  It would be perfectly reasonable for you to verify everything for quite some time to come.

The important point is not the actions, it is the attitude.  

This is you now:

My wife had an affair therefore I am worth less and should be willing to take what ever I can get and make the best of it.  I need to do whatever it takes to preserve the perfect life that I always envisioned us having together.

This needs to be you:

My wife had an affair, this was her choice and her mistake.  My actions may have contributed to that, but that does not excuse her actions.  I am done being the man I was then, I will be better.  I will be the best version of myself that I can be.  I will be strong, confident, a great father, and generally awesome.  If she plays her cards right she can stick around, if not there are other women out there who would jump at the chance to be my wife.  She may be my best option, but she is not my only option.

You don't believe that you can be the person in that paragraph, but start your MAP start to fix yourself and you can be.  Make that man the next person who will sweep your wife off her feet, become the next man that she will have an affair with, become so awesome that she will be willing to walk through hell to stay with you.

That is what we do here, that is what the MAP is all about.

_io

WideAwake said:

Thanks guys - just re-reading this a few times and letting it sink in.

That said, she's behaved perfectly since DDay and has gone above/beyond to stay connected to me and the family.

No, She didn't. If she were going above and beyond, she would have cut back drastically on her travel. She felt bad about what she did and she had a wake up call when you said you didn't want her to come home. All of a sudden she realized her behavior could cause her to lose her family and she went into make up mode. But nothing has really changed. You're both right back in the same conditions that led to the affair.

Now she resents you reminding her about her transgressions and she is no longer concerned with your feelings. She wants you to get over it already so she doesn't have that irritating pebble in her shoe, reminding her that she behaved like a bad person. She Skypes. What more do you want?

So the question is, what more do you want?

WideAwake

Tiger said:

I'm not telling you whether you should monitor or not.  If you believe that you don't want to monitor then don't. But the decision is yours not hers.  It would be perfectly reasonable for you to verify everything for quite some time to come.

The important point is not the actions, it is the attitude.  

This is you now:

My wife had an affair therefore I am worth less and should be willing to take what ever I can get and make the best of it.  I need to do whatever it takes to preserve the perfect life that I always envisioned us having together.

This needs to be you:

My wife had an affair, this was her choice and her mistake.  My actions may have contributed to that, but that does not excuse her actions.  I am done being the man I was then, I will be better.  I will be the best version of myself that I can be.  I will be strong, confident, a great father, and generally awesome.  If she plays her cards right she can stick around, if not there are other women out there who would jump at the chance to be my wife.  She may be my best option, but she is not my only option.

You don't believe that you can be the person in that paragraph, but start your MAP start to fix yourself and you can be.  Make that man the next person who will sweep your wife off her feet, become the next man that she will have an affair with, become so awesome that she will be willing to walk through hell to stay with you.

That is what we do here, that is what the MAP is all about.

@Tiger - Wow. You absolutely nailed it.  I do feel better since starting my MAP from a physical standpoint.  I've gotten the promotion, dress better everywhere, feel like I'm more assertive at home with wife and kids.

But...there I was like a scared little school girl with my wife's email secretly on my phone.  Kinda makes me sick to even write it.

I'm still a doormat, I've got a long way to go.  Let's get started - now!

WideAwake

@_io -

I want appreciation

I want honesty

I want trust

I want to know that my wife won't ever cheat on me again

I want interest in me and what I do

I want laughter and joking until we are crying

I want to be a great family

I want to not be scared anymore

I want my nightmares to stop

I want to have fun with my friends

I want her to have fun with her friends

I want us to have fun with our mutual friends

I want challenging,fulfilling work for myself and my wife

I want to be told that I'm valued

I want to be shown that I'm valued

I want texts for no reason other than to say I love you and I was thinking about you

I want a card tucked somwhere where only I'll find it with a sexy note inside when she's gone

I want to be desired and to be shown that I'm desired

I want passion from my wfe

I want to be a great dad

I want to be missed when I'm not there

I want to be dependable

I want to be a hard worker

I want to be a problem solver

I want to be a leader

I want a great partner

Now, I want a beer.  How's that for a start?

notafranny

:x

The_Dude

I think the previous posts are terrific. I justt want to point something out to you if you are not already aware of it. What you went through is trauma. It has the same effects as other trauma. PTSD, grief cycles, depression, etc. You and your wife need to understand this and treat it like trauma.
The fact that you were obsessively checking up on her is perfectly normal. It is not in any way a defect in your character. If you didn't have that urge I would wonder what's wrong with you. Almost every guy on here who's gone through this has had to deal with it and learn to control it. Don't beat your self up. Don't let her beat you up. It will take you a long time to recover. Probably several years. She needs to understand that. Your counselor should help you get that across to her.

The_Dude

This article can be really helpful in getting her to understand what's happening with you.
http://affaircare.com/articles/understanding-your-loyal-spouse/

stillasamountain

WideAwake said:

The one big thing that she absolutely hates (and I regret too, I was not in my right mind that day) was that I told her parents.  There was logistical reasons why I did, but if I could take one thing back that would be it.  

Actually, that might have been the BEST thing you did in the aftermath. Of course she hates it. All cheaters do. But, to kill an affair you need exposure and no contact. For reconciliation you need, minimally, remorse and transparency.

You say the remorse is there. I'm not so sure. Transparency is history now, too? I'd want it, as a good faith measure, even if there are ways around it. And I'm not sure I'd be particularly forthcoming about how exactly I was keeping tabs, either. No need to hand them a blueprint to safely circumvent it.

If everyone is remorseful and keeping their nose clean, none of that should be a problem, right?