Help WideAwake turn this around - Intro and Triage

WideAwake

@The_Dude - yep, been aware of the PTSD comparisons.  I know I certainly went through the stages in the first 6 months post DDay.  Anger/Rage was the worst - I was pissed at everything and everyone.  I had to run hard to make it through that stage.

The 1 year mark was tough too, but around that time I really came to a sense where I wanted to move from the "victim" mentality to the "survivor" mentality.  I wanted to have any questions remaining answered and then move to planning for the future.  I'm still there, but this latest setback makes me wonder how far back we've gone.

WideAwake

PS - thanks for the link.  I've seen that before I believe (or at least very close) elsewhere.

The_Dude

I had serious urges to go look at my wife's stuff for at least two years. I still have it cross my mind when I sit down to the computer and she's left it logged in.
Just tell her you don't like feeling like this either. You'll do your best to control it.

The fact that she's refused to answer your questions is troubling. It's going to drag this out for you. Your mind is going to run endlessly trying to fill in the years when reality wasn't what it seemed. It really is not her decision whether something will be hurtful to you or not. That's just bullshit. She doesn't want to speak the full truth. It let's get minimize her guilt.
I would broach that with the counselor. These are two sides of the same coin. She is upset you don't trust her but she doesn't want to tell you the truth.

If you do persue getting the answers you want, be a little careful. Some stuff you probably don't want to know. When they met is fine. Whether they had sex is ok. Specific graphic details I'd think long and hard about requesting.

The_Dude

Are you still in contact with the omw? The fact that she still travels the same circuit and so does he bothers me. Id think about setting up a communication channel with her to find out when theyre in the same town.
It sounds like you feel she's cut this off and that's great. But you have to be realistic. Many of these affairs restart. I am highly aware of any opportunity for my wife to run into the OM. And I'm extreamly confident she's on the up and up now.

WideAwake

The_Dude said:

I had serious urges to go look at my wife's stuff for at least two years. I still have it cross my mind when I sit down to the computer and she's left it logged in. Just tell her you don't like feeling like this either. You'll do your best to control it. The fact that she's refused to answer your questions is troubling. It's going to drag this out for you. Your mind is going to run endlessly trying to fill in the years when reality wasn't what it seemed. It really is not her decision whether something will be hurtful to you or not. That's just bullshit. She doesn't want to speak the full truth. It let's get minimize her guilt. I would broach that with the counselor. These are two sides of the same coin. She is upset you don't trust her but she doesn't want to tell you the truth. If you do persue getting the answers you want, be a little careful. Some stuff you probably don't want to know. When they met is fine. Whether they had sex is ok. Specific graphic details I'd think long and hard about requesting.

10-4 on the graphic info.  I went there a bit right after discovery and she was leery of telling me, but did. Sometimes I'm glad I asked, other times I wish I did not know.  The questions I have left do not deal with specifics like that.  And, you,re right - without the "reality" of what happened my over-active imagination has been more than happy to provide me with hours and hours of material that usually jolts me awake in the middle of the night.  

WideAwake

The_Dude said:

Are you still in contact with the omw? The fact that she still travels the same circuit and so does he bothers me. Id think about setting up a communication channel with her to find out when theyre in the same town. It sounds like you feel she's cut this off and that's great. But you have to be realistic. Many of these affairs restart. I am highly aware of any opportunity for my wife to run into the OM. And I'm extreamly confident she's on the up and up now.

I still have the contact info and if there is a conference that he might attend, I send an email to everyone to ask and I request confirmation back from both OM and OMW.  So far, it hasn't happened.  I think that she may have pulled the plug on his travel altogether (just me guessing here).

The_Dude

What questions hasn't she answered? What her feelings were? Logistics?

The_Dude

I would be thinking about pulling th plug on her travel too

WideAwake

Do you think it's best to go through the unanswered questions with the counselor (not this time, future session) or just between my wife and I?  Should I write them down and provide?

I can ask her how she would like to proceed, but I agree that I need to be done with this piece.  There is nothing there that is going to shock me at this point - I pretty much know the MO from the OMW and our early discussions.

It just wears me out.  I wonder if this is taking years off of my life sometimes.

The_Dude

I got pretty much every question answered. A lot in the immediate aftermath and then in a couple discussions later.
Part of the reason I needed those later conversations is because my entire understanding of all this changed over time. I'd say I've gone through three phases of how I see it. I think this is pretty common.
I would get it across to her that this is really a life changing experience for you and it's going to take a while to process. She shouldn't have an expectation that your going to never mention it again. If she does, I'd make it clear that you don't have closure and may need to talk it through in the future.

WideAwake

Rational, logical advice @The_Dude.  Wish you were giving it without having lived it.  Sorry for that.

Top it off I'm dealing with the end of life of my Mom (she's 91) and has been in hospice in her home for the past 3 weeks.  She's ready to go (spiritually) but her body is still strong and she's fading slowly with some slight rebounds.  End of the day, she's still my Mom and it's tough to say goodbye.

I think I understand how people start drinking every day or drugs.  I'm not heading there, but I get it.

WideAwake

I know about the beginning, I know about the end (I was there and caused it).  I have a pretty good idea of when they were together at conferences after a quick compare of notes with the OMW.

I'd just like her to walk me through from the start - when did he/she first show interest?  How did it progress?  Why didn't or couldn't you tell me? Confirmation of dates for 1.5 years. Questions about how they would pull it off without tipping of others they knew or spouses?  What if I had called the hotel and asked for her room and gotten no answer? Some other oddities about her travel.  What was said at the end before she talked to me?

Changed_Man

@WideAwake,

@The_Dude is spot on. If you're actively working through the trauma, grief, depression, etc there's no set time table and cycling is not uncommon. Post separation, I spent many hours in therapy dealing with the trauma of the affair and sorting through a lifetime of baggage that sabotaged me from becoming my best version, and came out the other side a more whole person with a full toolset to continue on my journey. Even now, with the divorced well behind me and the foundation being laid for an amazing relationship, I still experience mild triggers and flashbacks. They *never* completely go away, but they become less frequent and intense, and you become more adept at drop kicking the gremlins back to their cage when they get loose.

Don't be hard on yourself. If you find yourself stuck, then get the help you need to push through.

I understand how painful this is... BTDT. Be mindful that these issues mustn't be avoided and confronted head on. Even if your marriage doesn't survive, you're going to carry this unresolved shit with you and poison any future relationship, so do the hard work now.

WideAwake

Good advice, thank you @Changed_Man.  I'll get through this.  What one man can do another can do.  Even if that comes off as more of a pun in this situation than I would like...

The_Dude

Yeah, you want to understand the narrative of the whole thing. What did it really mean. I had to understand the same thing. And even though I had a lot of it early on I had to revisit it a few times.
I am past that now. I understand it about as well as is possible. It doesn't nag at me.

The other thing I would really figure out if you haven't already is why she lost attraction to you. I knew the obvious stuff pretty quickly but it took a while to really see the whole picture. I had forgotten so much of the past. Took a while to bring it back and see it again.

WideAwake

Any advice for me as I head into counseling tomorrow AM with my wife?  This is a MC we've seen before and we both like her - fairly straight-forward person.

The_Dude

When I went to a counselor I would often make a list of things I wanted to discuss. When it gets emotional I often forget stuff I really wanted to get to.

What do you want out of it?
What's your concern? Are you still worried about the surveillance thing?
Think through what you believe about it. Post it if you want feedback.

I think you need to use the counselor to express your need for closure. Is her refusal to discuss the events preventing that?
Also, has the counselor made it clear to your wife that this takes a long time to heal and that it's normal for you to be having problems coming to terms with it? Both of those may be helped by having a third party validate your experience.

WideAwake

I am worried about the surveillance that was found.  It really wasn't useful and I lied about it - that doesn't go too far when I'm talking about rebuilding the marriage. Made me feel weak and stupid because I lied to her about it.

I can see where I could try to justify it, and I can see where it is not justifiable (in her eyes and mine).  I don't want to do it any longer.  If she wanted to cheat, she would find a way.

I would like closure on the crap that been out there from the beginning.  My fear is that so much time has passed that now the easy answer will be "I don't know" or "I don't remember".

I want to move from "victim worrying about the past" to "survivor building our future" mode.  I'd like to talk about our needs (we wrote detailed lists for each other - her's are acts of service and quality time which i believe I'm crushing - mine are words/actions of appreciation and physical touch.  She's good with the words, but got a solid D in the physical touch).

Counselor is on board with this taking a long time.

Wife made comments that this brought us back to Day 1 - that now she feels like we need to start all over.  I'm not there and I hope that is not how far this set us back.

WideAwake

No, she doesn't just want me to forget it and doesn't expect me to just be over it.  I don't know if she's scared about what I might ask or if it's just ugly for her to talk about or if she's trying to protect me.  I'm guessing a combo platter of #1 and #2.

Changed_Man

WideAwake said:

I am worried about the surveillance that was found.  It really wasn't useful and I lied about it - that doesn't go too far when I'm talking about rebuilding the marriage. Made me feel weak and stupid because I lied to her about it.

I can see where I could try to justify it, and I can see where it is not justifiable (in her eyes and mine).  I don't want to do it any longer.  If she wanted to cheat, she would find a way.

I would like closure on the crap that been out there from the beginning.  My fear is that so much time has passed that now the easy answer will be "I don't know" or "I don't remember".

I want to move from "victim worrying about the past" to "survivor building our future" mode.  I'd like to talk about our needs (we wrote detailed lists for each other - her's are acts of service and quality time which i believe I'm crushing - mine are words/actions of appreciation and physical touch.  She's good with the words, but got a solid D in the physical touch).

Counselor is on board with this taking a long time.

Wife made comments that this brought us back to Day 1 - that now she feels like we need to start all over.  I'm not there and I hope that is not how far this set us back.

@The_Dude has nailed it again. Your continued surveillance is just a symptom to the problem of your lack of closure and not feeling safe.

I suggest you investigate with your wife and the MC what you are both doing (or not doing) that prevents you from getting the closure you need.