It's not the dishes. It's more - what does she do all day? Are you comfortable with her having a lot more free time than you? Is she a hard worker? Do you feel that you never get the chance to relax becasue you have so much to do at home after working all week?
In my home, I am the sahm. But I homeschool, which is like a part-time job. My husband still does tons of stuff - shopping and bill paying, etc. But he chooses to do these things. It is a division of labor that works for both of us. He never feels put upon or like my servant or butler. I am good at certain things and he is good at others. If he thought it was a better use of his time to wash the dishes (no dishwasher) and have me run more errands or balance the checkbook, that would be fine too. The point is that he decides and delegates - I am not his boss.
The balance would be different if your wife were working, but she is not.
In general, I think one cooks, the other does the dishes, is a fair deal. But even better is to do the dishes together. I cook, almost always. My husband washes the dishes, and I dry (we don't have a dishwasher; I know, we are the Flintstones). We have always done them together - it is quality time. We talk over the day, laugh together... it's nice. And when our kids were young, they helped dry and put things away too. Taught them that we are a family, and we work together. That way it gets done quicker, and then everybody can go do something fun.
This discussion has wound up several counties away from the original topic, which was how my wife can disagree with me without feeling like she's about to storm the beach at Normandy.
Forget the dishes, people! It's clear that it's not the time to change the dish rules. I continue to believe that our division of dish labor is equitable and does not require further discussion. I'm going to maintain the dish status quo for the time being. If I decide that it's time to change the dish rules, I'll explain why.
Now, given that I'm a lawyer and my wife is not, how do I balance the Captain/alpha in a disagreement?
As far as handling the disagreements goes, and you "always being right"...
I am not a lawyer, but I've been told by many that I should have been one LOL !! I get your arguing style. I am a pretty good debater. I assume I am right unless objectively proven otherwise. I spend time and research forming my opinions, and I don't reverse them easily. The difference for me is that I am in the position of deference, not of authority, so the solution is mostly STFU, and offer my opinions for consideration, rather than imposition. You are on the opposite side, so somehow you have to balance your position as Captain with a willingness to listen to your FO and consider what she has to say.
Do you let her talk and say her piece (calmly, not yelling of course) or do you interject and talk over her. Do you validate her feelings even if you disagree?
I'm a lawyer. My professional skill set that I've built over the past 15+ years includes a lot of adversary arguing. I've had some very demanding bosses and mentors who pushed me pretty hard for a long time. I've built up a fairly thick skin and a level of comfort in an argument. And I'm seeing, from my wife's point of view, that it has to be very difficult to be in an argument or disagreement with me.
My wife sent me an email this past weekend. Among other things, it said, "...can you appreciate even a little big how hard it can be to be married to the person who's never wrong? It really wears me down, and maybe you can understand how it's hard to imagine myself as pretty and/or sexy when it's obvious that I am the less powerful and less intelligent person in the relationship."
If something's important to me, and I've made a decision or taken a position, I tend to think it out. If my wife challenges me on the decision, I'm pretty quick with my reasons. Often, I think my reasons are obvious, so I can get annoyed when I'm doing this. Now, there's a heavy emphasis here on MMSL that Captains lead and make decisions. It would seem that a good Captain would have a relationship with his FO where the FO trusts the Captain's leadership but will feel comfortable disagreeing in a constructive way.
My wife apparently doesn't feel comfortable disagreeing with me. She doesn't feel like she stands a chance. So she will stew about things instead of bringing them up. How do I get around this? I know I need to avoid being annoyed or hostile when she has an issue with me. But at the same time, I can't be too weak, either. How have some of you Captains found this balance?
OK - forgetting the dishes...lol
How do you handle it when you actually are wrong? Are you quick to admit it and make any necessary adjustments/corrections/apologies?
Are you condescending when you think something is obvious?
Do you believe that being annoyed/hostile are the opposite of weakness?
Some other thoughts. Are you talking about the "It's not about the nail" arguments, or only times when your wife challenges your decisions? How would you characterize her challenges - emoptional or factual?
I am also a lawyer, and I struggle with this as well, but obviously in a different way, because I am FO rather than captain.
It's difficult for lawyers to realize how non-lawyer spouses react to our arguing style, because to us, conflict used strategically is very useful. We also have a better than average ability to "forget" the argument after it's done, while our spouses are often left hurt and wondering what they did to deserve our wrath. Lawyers have had lots of practice fighting it out in court with opposing counsel, then going for a beer afterwards as friends.
One thing my husband (an engineer) and I have done is conduct some of our more heated discussions/arguments in instant messaging. They are often more productive this way, because he has a chance to compose his thoughts and doesn't feel as blindsided by words.
Also, I would recommend against the "agree and amplify" strategy for you. Instead, I'd suggest the the firm redirection strategy. For example, I think she was impolite when she said "You're doing the dishes tonight," regardless of what your arrangement is. A better way for her to communicate the same thing would have been, "I'm exhausted, could you please handle the dishes tonight?" If she had asked that way, I'm sure you would have helped her and some of the resentment may have been avoided.
Next time she makes an impolite demand like that, firmly inform her that in the future she needs to use please and thank you and a polite tone in her requests for help, and that you will do the same when asking for help from her.
My wife sent me an email this past weekend. Among other things, it said, "...can you appreciate even a little big how hard it can be to be married to the person who's never wrong? It really wears me down, and maybe you can understand how it's hard to imagine myself as pretty and/or sexy when it's obvious that I am the less powerful and less intelligent person in the relationship."
Have a weekly state of the marriage meeting with her.
"The turnaround is tremendous. And I'm lifting weights, eating better, and tackling projects. I have all this great energy without a vampire sucking my life force. He's a lot stronger standing on his own two feet, as well." - Scarlet
you need to change your dish relationship because you made a thread about it.
Do I need to bust out the Tommy Lee Jones pic again?
This is about more than just the dishes; this is about handling disagreements between Captain and FO. The dishes were just an example.
Thing is, you chose the dishes argument as the one to go with, which is why @haniel is saying that's the one you care about. You thought it presented your two positions and her bad reaction, and showed you in a good light making good decisons. No shame there, we all choose the picture that makes us look the most reasonable, a model of good conflict handling.
Problem is, it didn't. It showed how you're doing a lot of thinking and solving in your head instead of out loud, whether by personality or to avoid conflict you don't really know yet, until you're totally confident wading into a confrontation without resorting to belittling or passive aggressive ploys.
Cdr. Awesome and I were doing a loose version of the weekly meeting when I first started posting here, but we realized when there was trouble, our first tendency was to retreat into our own shells. Reading about it here made us take it much more seriously, and fight our nature to hide out in our heads when there's something to negotiate.
"Speak your truth." - Scarlet Remember to play! Do the right thing, whether anyone is watching or not. Be married, until you are not.
I'm a lawyer. I think the answer is that you don't need to litigate everything. I assume butchers mostly don't go home and intimidate their spouse with knives after hours. Leave your tools at work.
Agreed, but I'm sure you'd also agree that doing that is a much more difficult task when your tools are a part of your personality and general problem solving strategies, instead of physical tools. Especially if you are FO and have to temper them or set them aside, rather than using them to increase alpha.
At some point it doesnt matter whose job it is, it just needs done.
The problem for the op is that its a power struggle...
I do things when they need to be done. My W (SAHM) does 90% of house stuff, so when I see something that needs doing I simply do it. YMMV here - if things are out of whack, then address it. I'm with @jasonbourne that A&A here would have been spot on and diffused things...away from the sink now:
You asked a much larger question. @serenity gave me some good advice a while back: My W is not my adversary. I have to remind myself of that. Those of us with specialized education, training and experience - who are taught how to win arguments, how to use slips in others' logic against them repeatedly, how to spot weakness and exploit it, how to obtain admissions - we have a hard time turning that off. We're taught to WIN. Right? I have heard many times from W, over the years "There is no arguing with you". That wasn't a shit test, that was a flat-out statement: she's right - she can't win. I used to routinely cut her off at the knees. Did that make me a good Captain? No, it made me a gigantic asshole with a W who may have capitulated an argument, but harbored BIG TIME resentment and anger afterwards. I just reduced an intelligent and beautiful woman who is my W into just another 'win'. That's an ineffective panty-wetting strategy BTW - ask me how I know.
You'll have to learn to temper and apply the skill-set from the right frame. Ask yourself "what do I want here". You have to realize that its not about 'winning' per se, but about being the Captain and leading. I stopped cutting her off at the knees - hell I don't think I even realized I was doing it - just another day at the gig. Instead of arguing, I started leading. Starting setting expectations. Making sure my delivery was funny and light, not with the game-face at work. If there's disagreement, I hear it out and we settle it. But I find there's a lot less disagreement these days when things are framed properly, when expectations have been clearly set, and when I'm leading like a good Captain.
"Fall down seven times, stand up eight" Japanese Proverb
Agreed, but I'm sure you'd also agree that doing that is a much more difficult task when your tools are a part of your personality and general problem solving strategies, instead of physical tools. Especially if you are FO and have to temper them or set them aside, rather than using them to increase alpha.
It's a little more difficult, but I wouldn't say it's a lot more difficult. You have to shut that stuff down or at least modify it when your audience is, say, a judge, a client, or a managing partner. There are lots of ways to argue, debate, discuss, and persuade. A decent lawyer is going to have a lot of them in the toolbox. A need to over use the more aggressive types of argument styles with one's spouse strikes me as more of a problem with checking one's ego than as an occupational hazard of being a lawyer.
Well, I don't think I use an aggressive style at all. I'm more "Minnesota Nice." Lol. But engineers are not usually very verbal types, their talents lie in very different areas. So often even low key debate is not enjoyable to them.
My wife sent me an email this past weekend. Among other things, it said, "...can you appreciate even a little big how hard it can be to be married to the person who's never wrong? It really wears me down, and maybe you can understand how it's hard to imagine myself as pretty and/or sexy when it's obvious that I am the less powerful and less intelligent person in the relationship."
Her statement here doesn't mean she thinks you are right. If you are leading, and "right" you have happy followers, they respect you even more when they see you have the right call, know your shit. If you are "leading" (i.e. in name only) and are actually right you have pissed off followers who don't acknowledge you are right or do so begrudgingly because they don't respect you. They just know you have power over them.
You need to get her to respect you first, and it seems while she is willing to say you are smarter and have more power, her actions over the dishes were a real power play. First she commanded you not to "stick her with the dishes", then she found some fault with your effort (which you did a good job of nipping in the bud).
When you went all pissy on her "oh really" it reinforces for her that you can be a dick. And she won't respect that, not yet. She has too much power herself at this point. You are resetting the balance in the relationship.
It is natural and something early MAP that everyone does, they confront the confrontations directly to make up for years of lack of alpha, but it is often too much too soon. A better strategy is to get cocky/funny and A & A and diffuse the situation in a playful way. This is not obvious at first, but will accelerate your MAP progress, try to do this when you get shot down as well. Have fun with her, but still stick to your guns and be firm when you really do need to.
Amused mastery. She can still come to respect you for your skill/wit/charm and being right, but you come off as less of a dick and not aggressive.
Our daughter (only child) is 6. Not tall enough to do dishes yet.
True, she may be too short, but she could assist in loading the dishwasher, if it isn't time for her bath quite yet. It's a good way to spend quality time and training on how to do this responsibly. I can remember helping my parents with such chores, even before I was tall enough to reach the top of the counter, and the pride in learning such a grown up thing still lingers in my mind.
"Life can only be understood backwards, but it must be lived forward." Soren Keirkgaard
Okay, in an attempt to address your initial question, rather than your example, the issue seems to be how your wife can constructively disagree with you and be a good first officer.
I pulled this off of Wikipedia:
In commercial aviation, the first officer is the second pilot (sometimes referred to as the "co-pilot") of an aircraft. The first officer is second-in-command of the aircraft, to the captain who is the legal commander. In the event of incapacitation of the captain, the first officer will assume command of the aircraft.
Control of the aircraft is normally shared equally between the first officer and the captain, with one pilot normally designated the "pilot flying" (PF) and the other the "pilot not flying" (PNF), or "pilot monitoring" (PM), for each flight. Even when the first officer is the flying pilot, however, the captain remains ultimately responsible for the aircraft, its passengers, and the crew. In typical day-to-day operations, the essential job tasks remain fairly equal.
Okay, so ignore the aviation reference and think of that in terms of a marriage. Your wife needs to understand what her role is in the marriage. At this time, she is probably just thinking of herself as a wife and a mother, not as an FO in a partnership with you as the Captain. Unless she has started her own MAP, that idea is rather foreign. Because of this, she does not understand what is happening in your marriage. Have you sat down and discussed the sharing of responsibilities and why you are taking a strong stance as a leader in the marriage? If she understands why do you things the way you do, to make things run smoother and be less stressful for everyone all around, then she may be able to find her footing in the new way of doing things too.
She needs to understand that you are leading the family in a good direction and that you value and want her to assist in this too. To that end, she also needs to understand that it is okay to disagree with your decisions at times and that she can take such things to you with the understanding that you will hear her out fairly.
Hope that helps.
"Life can only be understood backwards, but it must be lived forward." Soren Keirkgaard
So is the problem the dishes or the lack of communication?
Sounds like the communication. @BrianC has an article or two about that you'll probably find useful. Does your wife get time to say what she thinks and feels, or do you just talk rings around her?
Comments
In my home, I am the sahm. But I homeschool, which is like a part-time job. My husband still does tons of stuff - shopping and bill paying, etc. But he chooses to do these things. It is a division of labor that works for both of us. He never feels put upon or like my servant or butler. I am good at certain things and he is good at others. If he thought it was a better use of his time to wash the dishes (no dishwasher) and have me run more errands or balance the checkbook, that would be fine too. The point is that he decides and delegates - I am not his boss.
The balance would be different if your wife were working, but she is not.
Forget the dishes, people! It's clear that it's not the time to change the dish rules. I continue to believe that our division of dish labor is equitable and does not require further discussion. I'm going to maintain the dish status quo for the time being. If I decide that it's time to change the dish rules, I'll explain why.
Now, given that I'm a lawyer and my wife is not, how do I balance the Captain/alpha in a disagreement?
I am not a lawyer, but I've been told by many that I should have been one LOL !! I get your arguing style. I am a pretty good debater. I assume I am right unless objectively proven otherwise. I spend time and research forming my opinions, and I don't reverse them easily. The difference for me is that I am in the position of deference, not of authority, so the solution is mostly STFU, and offer my opinions for consideration, rather than imposition. You are on the opposite side, so somehow you have to balance your position as Captain with a willingness to listen to your FO and consider what she has to say. Do you let her talk and say her piece (calmly, not yelling of course) or do you interject and talk over her. Do you validate her feelings even if you disagree?
How do you handle it when you actually are wrong? Are you quick to admit it and make any necessary adjustments/corrections/apologies?
Are you condescending when you think something is obvious?
Do you believe that being annoyed/hostile are the opposite of weakness?
Some other thoughts. Are you talking about the "It's not about the nail" arguments, or only times when your wife challenges your decisions? How would you characterize her challenges - emoptional or factual?
Have a weekly state of the marriage meeting with her.
One Hour Call 12-Week Guided MAP
"The turnaround is tremendous. And I'm lifting weights, eating better, and tackling projects. I have all this great energy without a vampire sucking my life force. He's a lot stronger standing on his own two feet, as well." - Scarlet
Problem is, it didn't. It showed how you're doing a lot of thinking and solving in your head instead of out loud, whether by personality or to avoid conflict you don't really know yet, until you're totally confident wading into a confrontation without resorting to belittling or passive aggressive ploys.
Cdr. Awesome and I were doing a loose version of the weekly meeting when I first started posting here, but we realized when there was trouble, our first tendency was to retreat into our own shells. Reading about it here made us take it much more seriously, and fight our nature to hide out in our heads when there's something to negotiate.
Remember to play!
Do the right thing, whether anyone is watching or not.
Be married, until you are not.
Email address: angeline.greenwood@att.net
You asked a much larger question. @serenity gave me some good advice a while back: My W is not my adversary. I have to remind myself of that. Those of us with specialized education, training and experience - who are taught how to win arguments, how to use slips in others' logic against them repeatedly, how to spot weakness and exploit it, how to obtain admissions - we have a hard time turning that off. We're taught to WIN. Right? I have heard many times from W, over the years "There is no arguing with you". That wasn't a shit test, that was a flat-out statement: she's right - she can't win. I used to routinely cut her off at the knees. Did that make me a good Captain? No, it made me a gigantic asshole with a W who may have capitulated an argument, but harbored BIG TIME resentment and anger afterwards. I just reduced an intelligent and beautiful woman who is my W into just another 'win'. That's an ineffective panty-wetting strategy BTW - ask me how I know.
You'll have to learn to temper and apply the skill-set from the right frame. Ask yourself "what do I want here". You have to realize that its not about 'winning' per se, but about being the Captain and leading. I stopped cutting her off at the knees - hell I don't think I even realized I was doing it - just another day at the gig. Instead of arguing, I started leading. Starting setting expectations. Making sure my delivery was funny and light, not with the game-face at work. If there's disagreement, I hear it out and we settle it. But I find there's a lot less disagreement these days when things are framed properly, when expectations have been clearly set, and when I'm leading like a good Captain.
How will you live well today?
"Life can only be understood backwards, but it must be lived forward." Soren Keirkgaard
I pulled this off of Wikipedia:
In commercial aviation, the first officer is the second pilot (sometimes referred to as the "co-pilot") of an aircraft. The first officer is second-in-command of the aircraft, to the captain who is the legal commander. In the event of incapacitation of the captain, the first officer will assume command of the aircraft.
Control of the aircraft is normally shared equally between the first officer and the captain, with one pilot normally designated the "pilot flying" (PF) and the other the "pilot not flying" (PNF), or "pilot monitoring" (PM), for each flight. Even when the first officer is the flying pilot, however, the captain remains ultimately responsible for the aircraft, its passengers, and the crew. In typical day-to-day operations, the essential job tasks remain fairly equal.
Okay, so ignore the aviation reference and think of that in terms of a marriage. Your wife needs to understand what her role is in the marriage. At this time, she is probably just thinking of herself as a wife and a mother, not as an FO in a partnership with you as the Captain. Unless she has started her own MAP, that idea is rather foreign. Because of this, she does not understand what is happening in your marriage. Have you sat down and discussed the sharing of responsibilities and why you are taking a strong stance as a leader in the marriage? If she understands why do you things the way you do, to make things run smoother and be less stressful for everyone all around, then she may be able to find her footing in the new way of doing things too.
She needs to understand that you are leading the family in a good direction and that you value and want her to assist in this too. To that end, she also needs to understand that it is okay to disagree with your decisions at times and that she can take such things to you with the understanding that you will hear her out fairly.
Hope that helps.
"Life can only be understood backwards, but it must be lived forward." Soren Keirkgaard
Sounds like the communication. @BrianC has an article or two about that you'll probably find useful. Does your wife get time to say what she thinks and feels, or do you just talk rings around her?