Arguing or Disagreeing as Captain and FO

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Comments

  • liquidliquid Brooklyn, NYSilver Member Posts: 1,785
    It's not the dishes. It's more - what does she do all day? Are you comfortable with her having a lot more free time than you? Is she a hard worker? Do you feel that you never get the chance to relax becasue you have so much to do at home after working all week?

    In my home, I am the sahm. But I homeschool, which is like a part-time job. My husband still does tons of stuff - shopping and bill paying, etc. But he chooses to do these things. It is a division of labor that works for both of us. He never feels put upon or like my servant or butler. I am good at certain things and he is good at others.  If he thought it was a better use of his time to wash the dishes (no dishwasher) and have me run more errands or balance the checkbook, that would be fine too. The point is that he decides and delegates - I am not his boss.

    The balance would be different if your wife were working, but she is not.


    Katt
  • MiddleManMiddleMan Chicago BurbsSilver Member Posts: 1,898
    edited February 2014
    Our daughter (only child) is 6. Not tall enough to do dishes yet.
  • MiddleManMiddleMan Chicago BurbsSilver Member Posts: 1,898
    This discussion has wound up several counties away from the original topic, which was how my wife can disagree with me without feeling like she's about to storm the beach at Normandy.

    Forget the dishes, people! It's clear that it's not the time to change the dish rules. I continue to believe that our division of dish labor is equitable and does not require further discussion. I'm going to maintain the dish status quo for the time being. If I decide that it's time to change the dish rules, I'll explain why.

    Now, given that I'm a lawyer and my wife is not, how do I balance the Captain/alpha in a disagreement?
  • KattKatt USASilver Member Posts: 4,554
    As far as handling the disagreements goes, and you "always being right"...

    I am not a lawyer, but I've been told by many that I should have been one  LOL !!  I get your arguing style.  I am a pretty good debater.  I assume I am right unless objectively proven otherwise.  I spend time and research forming my opinions, and I don't reverse them easily. The difference for me is that I am in the position of deference, not of authority, so the solution is mostly STFU, and offer my opinions for consideration, rather than imposition. You are on the opposite side, so somehow you have to balance your position as Captain with a willingness to listen to your FO and consider what she has to say. Do you let her talk and say her piece (calmly, not yelling of course) or do you interject and talk over her. Do you validate her feelings even if you disagree?
    Tennee
  • liquidliquid Brooklyn, NYSilver Member Posts: 1,785
    edited February 2014
    MiddleMan said:

    I'm a lawyer. My professional skill set that I've built over the past 15+ years includes a lot of adversary arguing. I've had some very demanding bosses and mentors who pushed me pretty hard for a long time. I've built up a fairly thick skin and a level of comfort in an argument. And I'm seeing, from my wife's point of view, that it has to be very difficult to be in an argument or disagreement with me.

    My wife sent me an email this past weekend. Among other things, it said, "...can you appreciate even a little big how hard it can be to be married to the person who's never wrong?  It really wears me down, and maybe you can understand how it's hard to imagine myself as pretty and/or sexy when it's obvious that I am the less powerful and less intelligent person in the relationship."

    If something's important to me, and I've made a decision or taken a position, I tend to think it out. If my wife challenges me on the decision, I'm pretty quick with my reasons. Often, I think my reasons are obvious, so I can get annoyed when I'm doing this. Now, there's a heavy emphasis here on MMSL that Captains lead and make decisions. It would seem that a good Captain would have a relationship with his FO where the FO trusts the Captain's leadership but will feel comfortable disagreeing in a constructive way.

    My wife apparently doesn't feel comfortable disagreeing with me. She doesn't feel like she stands a chance. So she will stew about things instead of bringing them up. How do I get around this? I know I need to avoid being annoyed or hostile when she has an issue with me. But at the same time, I can't be too weak, either. How have some of you Captains found this balance?


    OK - forgetting the dishes...lol

    How do you handle it when you actually are wrong? Are you quick to admit it and make any necessary adjustments/corrections/apologies?

    Are you condescending when you think something is obvious?

    Do you believe that being annoyed/hostile are the opposite of weakness?

    Some other thoughts. Are you talking about the "It's not about the nail" arguments, or only times when your wife challenges your decisions? How would you characterize her challenges - emoptional or factual?
    KattAngelineTenneeLeticia
  • AngelineAngeline planting seedsCategory Moderator** Posts: 14,500
    edited February 2014
    MiddleMan said:

    haniel said:

    you need to change your dish relationship because you made a thread about it.

    Do I need to bust out the Tommy Lee Jones pic again?

    This is about more than just the dishes; this is about handling disagreements between Captain and FO. The dishes were just an example.
    Thing is, you chose the dishes argument as the one to go with, which is why @haniel is saying that's the one you care about. You thought it presented your two positions and her bad reaction, and showed you in a good light making good decisons. No shame there, we all choose the picture that makes us look the most reasonable, a model of good conflict handling.

    Problem is, it didn't. It showed how you're doing a lot of thinking and solving in your head instead of out loud, whether by personality or to avoid conflict you don't really know yet, until you're totally confident wading into a confrontation without resorting to belittling or passive aggressive ploys.

    Cdr. Awesome and I were doing a loose version of the weekly meeting when I first started posting here, but we realized when there was trouble, our first tendency was to retreat into our own shells. Reading about it here made us take it much more seriously, and fight our nature to hide out in our heads when there's something to negotiate.
    "Speak your truth." - Scarlet
    Remember to play!
    Do the right thing, whether anyone is watching or not.
    Be married, until you are not.

    Email address: angeline.greenwood@att.net
    hanielredheaded_womanScarletOlddog
  • mrsozzymrsozzy texasGold Women Posts: 1,950
    Agreed, but I'm sure you'd also agree that doing that is a much more difficult task when your tools are a part of your personality and general problem solving strategies, instead of physical tools. Especially if you are FO and have to temper them or set them aside, rather than using them to increase alpha.
    MiddleMan
  • KheldarKheldar IndianaSilver Member Posts: 1,565
    mrsozzy said:
    Agreed, but I'm sure you'd also agree that doing that is a much more difficult task when your tools are a part of your personality and general problem solving strategies, instead of physical tools. Especially if you are FO and have to temper them or set them aside, rather than using them to increase alpha.
    It's a little more difficult, but I wouldn't say it's a lot more difficult. You have to shut that stuff down or at least modify it when your audience is, say, a judge, a client, or a managing partner. There are lots of ways to argue, debate, discuss, and persuade. A decent lawyer is going to have a lot of them in the toolbox. A need to over use the more aggressive types of argument styles with one's spouse strikes me as more of a problem with checking one's ego than as an occupational hazard of being a lawyer. 
    TenneeMiddleManAngeline
  • mrsozzymrsozzy texasGold Women Posts: 1,950
    Well, I don't think I use an aggressive style at all. I'm more "Minnesota Nice." Lol. But engineers are not usually very verbal types, their talents lie in very different areas. So often even low key debate is not enjoyable to them.
    Angeline
  • mrsozzymrsozzy texasGold Women Posts: 1,950
    edited February 2014
    Sorry double post.
  • hoping4betterhoping4better Member Posts: 1,223
    @middleman said:

    My wife sent me an email this past weekend. Among other things, it said, "...can you appreciate even a little big how hard it can be to be married to the person who's never wrong?  It really wears me down, and maybe you can understand how it's hard to imagine myself as pretty and/or sexy when it's obvious that I am the less powerful and less intelligent person in the relationship."

    Her statement here doesn't mean she thinks you are right.  If you are leading, and "right" you have happy followers, they respect you even more when they see you have the right call, know your shit.  If you are "leading" (i.e. in name only) and are actually right you have pissed off followers who don't acknowledge you are right or do so begrudgingly because they don't respect you.  They just know you have power over them.

    You need to get her to respect you first, and it seems while she is willing to say you are smarter and have more power, her actions over the dishes were a real power play. First she commanded you not to "stick her with the dishes", then she found some fault with your effort (which you did a good job of nipping in the bud).

    When you went all pissy on her "oh really" it reinforces for her that you can be a dick.  And she won't respect that, not yet.  She has too much power herself at this point.  You are resetting the balance in the relationship.

      It is natural and something early MAP that everyone does, they confront the confrontations directly to make up for years of lack of alpha, but it is often too much too soon.  A better strategy is to get cocky/funny and A & A and diffuse the situation in a playful way.  This is not obvious at first, but will accelerate your MAP progress, try to do this when you get shot down as well.  Have fun with her, but still stick to your guns and be firm when you really do need to.

    Amused mastery.  She can still come to respect you for your skill/wit/charm and being right, but you come off as less of a dick and not aggressive.  

    KattTenneeAngelineOlddog
  • Moon_GirlMoon_Girl FLSilver Member Posts: 117
    MiddleMan said:
    Our daughter (only child) is 6. Not tall enough to do dishes yet.


    True, she may be too short, but she could assist in loading the dishwasher, if it isn't time for her bath quite yet.  It's a good way to spend quality time and training on how to do this responsibly.  I can remember helping my parents with such chores, even before I was tall enough to reach the top of the counter, and the pride in learning such a grown up thing still lingers in my mind.

    "Life can only be understood backwards, but it must be lived forward." Soren Keirkgaard

    newredpillrecruitAngela
  • Moon_GirlMoon_Girl FLSilver Member Posts: 117
    edited February 2014
    Okay, in an attempt to address your initial question, rather than your example, the issue seems to be how your wife can constructively disagree with you and be a good first officer.

    I pulled this off of Wikipedia:

    In commercial aviation, the first officer is the second pilot (sometimes referred to as the "co-pilot") of an aircraft. The first officer is second-in-command of the aircraft, to the captain who is the legal commander. In the event of incapacitation of the captain, the first officer will assume command of the aircraft.

    Control of the aircraft is normally shared equally between the first officer and the captain, with one pilot normally designated the "pilot flying" (PF) and the other the "pilot not flying" (PNF), or "pilot monitoring" (PM), for each flight. Even when the first officer is the flying pilot, however, the captain remains ultimately responsible for the aircraft, its passengers, and the crew. In typical day-to-day operations, the essential job tasks remain fairly equal.

    Okay, so ignore the aviation reference and think of that in terms of a marriage. Your wife needs to understand what her role is in the marriage. At this time, she is probably just thinking of herself as a wife and a mother, not as an FO in a partnership with you as the Captain. Unless she has started her own MAP, that idea is rather foreign. Because of this, she does not understand what is happening in your marriage. Have you sat down and discussed the sharing of responsibilities and why you are taking a strong stance as a leader in the marriage? If she understands why do you things the way you do, to make things run smoother and be less stressful for everyone all around, then she may be able to find her footing in the new way of doing things too.

    She needs to understand that you are leading the family in a good direction and that you value and want her to assist in this too. To that end, she also needs to understand that it is okay to disagree with your decisions at times and that she can take such things to you with the understanding that you will hear her out fairly.

    Hope that helps.

    "Life can only be understood backwards, but it must be lived forward." Soren Keirkgaard

  • RosesRoses USASilver Member Posts: 720
    So is the problem the dishes or the lack of communication?

    Sounds like the communication.  @BrianC has an article or two about that you'll probably find useful.  Does your wife get time to say what she thinks and feels, or do you just talk rings around her?
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