Arguing or Disagreeing as Captain and FO

RedPillLearning

This is a very interesting read as I am a recovering beta-dishwasher (wife also a SAHM).

Sorry, but will someone tell me what is meant by A&A?  I checked the glossary of terms but I don't see it listed.

SignorePillolaRossa

A&A is agree and amplify

it is a response tactic for when she says something accusatorily negative to / about you .. you agree with it in an exaggerated playful way that makes it clear you are dismissing it as ridiculous .... and then you amplify - take her accusation to an even wilder extreme exageration

e.g. her: " you only want me for sex"

you: "duh - of course i want you for sex. lots of it. but also i want you to go get me a sandwich."

MiddleMan

OK. So here's a "How did I do?":

Context: 2 weeks ago, we fostered an 8-week-old puppy. Puppies aren't house-trained at that age. Since we were in the jaws of winter, we couldn't take her outside much and this was basically a disaster of epic proportions. Wife and I agreed that we wouldn't foster or adopt any animals until after our spring break trip at the end of March.

Today I get the following email from my wife:

"Speaking of activities, I know you had requested a moratorium on fostering, but an opportunity has come up that sounds pretty ideal. [describes dog she wants to foster right now.]

I replied:

"As for fostering, we agreed that we were not going to have any more animals until after our trip. I intend to keep that agreement."

She replied: "Ok, I just thought I'd ask."

This appears to have gone well. I'm hoping that I find a happy wife when I get home from work this evening. I think I will.

Katt

Good job, @MiddleMan‌ !

MiddleMan

Thanks, @Katt! This comes on the heels of some pretty good sex last night. I wonder if her request is in any way (even unconsciously) related.

I'm not accusing her at all and I'm assuming only good, non-ulterior intentions on her part. It's just the sort of thing I think about now that I'm MAPping.

hoping4better

Great job.  This shows good progress.  maybe a little formal but that's just my take, maybe you guys talk like that.

Doubly good for not caving post sex.  The key to retraining is being consistent.  So stay consistent.

see women love having all these crazy fantasy ideas and they really love when a man reals it back in for them, because most of the time they can't do it themselves....   So again, great job.

She will start coming to you more and more for approval with all kinds of mundane shit.  It can be really annoying but just keep in mind everytime she does you are reinforcing yourself as the leader of the relationship.

also don't get thrown when she comes to you, probably very soon, with one of these kinds of tests and then goes apeshit and does not smile and back off of it.  Be ready.  be calm and be consistent and don't take her shit.

Nice.

MiddleMan

Is there an "Internet Fist-Bump" button? I'd like to click that for you, @hoping4better‌. Thanks for the encouragement.

My wife and I sometimes talk like that. We usually write like that. (Years of college and grad school.) And above all, I just wanted to be neutral and factual, as opposed to emotional, in my response. If this were in person as opposed to in an email, it would have been a lot more difficult.

I will be ready for the next test.

Zoroaster

My wife and I "argue" about politics all the time, but that's more a shared hobby than anything else. We have few real fights, because we plan out our goals first, agree on them, and then it's all about the best path to get from where we are to where we want to be.

Then again, I looked long and hard for a partner who was both smart and habitually low-drama.

Tennee

@hoping4better said:

She will start coming to you more and more for approval with all kinds of mundane shit.  It can be really annoying but just keep in mind everytime she does you are reinforcing yourself as the leader of the relationship.

Yep!  Pay attention - this is easy to brush off/ignore if you're not listening.   Don't miss this opportunity to Captain.  I flubbed this a bit, because I wasn't paying attention.  

Today:

W:  Can I count shopping / walking today as a gym visit?
Me:  No, if you blow it off today you have to make it up tomorrow.
W:  Ok, I'll go in the morning

MiddleMan

Last night, as predicted, I did have to lock horns with her hamster. But it looked different than I expected.

Our daughter was away at a sleepover. Wife and I went out to dinner. The place where we had reservations had royally screwed up and wasn't going to be able to seat us (or anyone) within an hour. So wife and I agreed to call an audible; I used OpenTable to snag a reservation at a nearby Greek restaurant we both like. A very nice dinner was had.

We return home and relax on the couch watching a couple of our shows. (We needed to let our food settle a bit.) I start making my moves. Here's where the hamster came out. But this wasn't a "fitness test" hamster, it was an insecurity/loyalty test hamster. I don't remember the exact words, but she told me that she was feeling insecure that I wasn't satisfied with our sex life. I told her "I'm through talking" and started kissing her. But she decided to interpret this as me cutting off all discussion and not listening to her! (Just like the issue she raised in my initial post on this discussion.)

I went with amused mastery. I kept eye contact with her and told her to tell me where she's coming from. I told her that if she's worried about my attraction to her that she should pay attention to my actions; they speak louder than any words. I quickly got to a point where she and I agreed that there wasn't any current problem. I even joked (in a playful, confident tone) that "When you replay this conversation to yourself later, you're going to feel silly."

And this worked very well. She felt heard, there were no hard feelings, I maintained a confident, amused frame, and we proceeded to bed where I gave her a full body massage before some pretty decent sex.

I think it's valuable for me to note that my wife needs to have her confidence built. Ultimately, I want her to become more sexually confident. I'll lead by example, but I have to realize that this has to be a gradual process. I'll make it easy for her by becoming more attractive and confident and maintaining frame.

My daughter is going to be away for a lot of today as well. Since my wife and I are going to have the house to ourselves, I'm going to initiate again. This morning she said she feels like she's coming down with a cold. We'll have to see how this turns out. But overall, good progress.

hoping4better

I don't remember the exact words, but she told me that she was feeling insecure that I wasn't satisfied with our sex life. I told her "I'm through talking" and started kissing her. But she decided to interpret this as me cutting off all discussion and not listening to her! (Just like the issue she raised in my initial post on this discussion.)

I went with amused mastery. I kept eye contact with her and told her to tell me where she's coming from. I told her that if she's worried about my attraction to her that she should pay attention to my actions; they speak louder than any words. I quickly got to a point where she and I agreed that there wasn't any current problem. I even joked (in a playful, confident tone) that "When you replay this conversation to yourself later, you're going to feel silly."

And this worked very well. She felt heard, there were no hard feelings, I maintained a confident, amused frame, and we proceeded to bed where I gave her a full body massage before some pretty decent sex.

OK - to recap for others...  she gave you the "tell me i'm pretty" shit test, a form of LMR...  and instead of being literal, and telling her, or supplicating and killing attraction or worse arguing with her, getting defensive, frustrated and angry...   You went with amused mastery, kept joking in a confident way, held frame and had sex...  Perfect man!

This is the best default frame state to have IMO, because you get to stay confident at first and if it is a situation that really is serious and you need to get serious, you have that out readily available at little to no cost.  Just be sure your amused mastery doesn't veer into snarky, outright hurtful, sarcastic etc... and you can play it off if you need to bail, and then get bonus points for "really being there" etc.  Others should learn from this, develop their frame and bitch less...

MAP on...

hoping4better

IOW's...  this is what James Bond would do.

redheaded_woman

@hoping4better‌ "she gave you the "tell me i'm pretty" shit test, a form of LMR"

LMR???

Olddog

Bump - Maybe it's time to update this thread?

You mention she has control issues - submissiveness thread.

So I'm curious, how is the arguing going?  Are you leading/communicating better? Are you achieving goals together, somewhat smoothly? Have you cut back on the win-at-all-costs style of arguing?

(I was married to an all-star debater. Not good. So I say this as someone whose been in your wife's shoes: I was not submissive with him. YMMV...)

MiddleMan

We haven't been arguing much lately. It's definitely a fine line between always being right and simply holding frame.

OneEyedDrunk

Look at the great sets of Captains/FO's out there and see how they do it. 

Picard/Riker

Adama/Tigh

Kirk/Spock

I think my style as a Captain is somewhere between Kirk and Picard. My wife agrees I would be ready at times to jump in to a fight with Phaser at the ready depending on the circumstances. However, most situations are not like that. Some things I say to get some discussion are as follows:

"Options #1" (I often already know the options, but this gives good dialogue. When her and I come up with a plan, then I say "Make it so". This is how Picard leads. 

"What are your thoughts?"

Again, I'm the Captain. My decision stands. It's also a decision that we have discussed fully depending on the situation. That gets more "buy in" and less resistance. If it's an emergency? I don't discuss jack shit. I act. Then she sees what just happened.

Olddog

MiddleMan said:

We haven't been arguing much lately. It's definitely a fine line between always being right and simply holding frame.

Going back to the OP, do you think she is feeling she's being 'heard'?

MiddleMan

I do. We had a talk about our Love Languages that was constructive and productive, for example.

Redford

Yes, but that is in great parts for your benefit. Do you think she feels heard about things that affect her more than is affects you?  Or do you shut her up while justifying it as debating?

soa2005

I know this happened awhile ago but the conversation about fostering a puppy was handled perfectly. Often times, when I'm leading well, my wife will defer all types of questions like this to me. They're really easy wins and help reassure me that I'm on the right path. 

@leticia

Brings up a great question. How do you handle your wife when she discusses emotions as opposed to real life problems? They are two different things completely and need to be handled differently. 

For example: When your wife asked you about the puppy she was looking for guidance. She also may have been testing you. You responded strongly and gave her a "leading" type answer. In my opinion that was perfect. 

But how do you handle scenarios where your wife discusses her feelings? In the past my wife would state "I'm sad right now because xyz" or "I'm unhappy because xyz". Sometimes, assuming we were in a good place at the moment, I would be shocked by her feelings. Because I felt we were in a good place I would attempt to argue her out of her feelings. ( fucked up huh?). I would use logic to invalidate her emotions. (" how can you be sad right now, we did dinner and a movie Friday night and Saturday night we went to your friends party?"). My logic would prevail and she would bottle up the emotions she felt because I never validated her feelings. 

Long winded, I know. My advice to you is that if this sounds familiar make it a huge priority to stop yourself from this behavior. Feelings are not right or wrong , they're just feelings. Nowadays if my wife wants to discuss her feelings I listen. I no longer try and talk her out of those feelings. Usually after discussing her feelings, she'll end up coming to me the next day and telling me thank you and that she feels better.