Soft Initiating leads to shit test?

Kheldar

A soft no with some degree of flirtiness or uncertainty in it would be one thing. When my wife gives me a "soft" no, so often it feels like the response a cat must get when it presents its human with the loving gift of a dead bird. Whether that's my own mind, objective reality, the lingering shadow of post-pregnancy rejections, or some combination, I don't know. 

A coy, sing-songy "not now" is going to convey a different meaning than an annoyed, biting "not now." 

markymapo

I totally get that...everyone's situation is different. Nothing wrong with being easy. I wish more woman were like you. As a guy I can tell you constant rejection from a wife really does damage. It eats at the core of a guys confidence. It did for me. But good communication and some good sex can fix that. Heck, my wife and I are at a point now that me having multiple orgasms per romp makes me a really happy guy. And her a happy gal.

Kheldar

Here is a premise: 

"Soft nos are as much of a turn off to men as soft initiations are to women."

Angeline

Your premise is invalid.

Katt

@Kheldar said:

Here is a premise: 

"Soft nos are as much of a turn off to men as soft initiations are to women."

I think some men like the chase game more than others. I suspect Mr. Katt would agree with your premise, but it seems some men feel differently. My realization that anything vaguely resembling disinterest is a major negative for my husband is why I don't play the game. The fun of the cat and mouse chase for me isn't worth the downside for him in my marriage.

Diablo

@katt The problem is not that some man might feel differently about the about the chase. The problem is that after being shut down so many times by the person you love and your only source of sex, you feel that playing the game is not worth it any more with you SO. The chase outside the marriage becomes more exciting because you have a better chance of having sex and interest from that person.

Eightbit

Ok, so I'm still bad about these soft initiation. But really I often have trouble with confidence when pirouette is yellow/yellow-red. I passed on a couple of opportunities this week because I wasn't a hard green, so we basically ended up going seven days without sex after three days in a row.

If I'm not a hard green, then it will affect my confidence, and attempting to push through a yellow or yellow-red soft no will result in a bad encounter because I need strong sexual feedback from her that she's not going to be able to provide. It's all on me because she didn't say no, but at the same time it's better for both of us if I'm just not feeling it.

I want to change this, and I will it's just really hard.

Katt

@Diablo said:

@katt The problem is not that some man might feel differently about the about the chase. The problem is that after being shut down so many times by the person you love and your only source of sex, you feel that playing the game is not worth it any more with you SO. The chase outside the marriage becomes more exciting because you have a better chance of having sex and interest from that person.

My husband was never good with subtlety or play in this arena. Any time he has pushed through a soft no, I have given it up, but in general I think if he thinks I am disinterested he would rather not.

Katt

So ? for the soft no hating men: Would knowing you could basically have whatever you want from your wife sexually whenever you want it diminish the value / excitement of sex for you at all?

dalef

Yes, but until you read the "red pill" literature, there is nothing to tell a man about soft nos. I have also warned my daughter about soft yesses when having sex for the first time, they can make the man feel unwanted, leading to a "pump and dump" Oh, and a backrub can be foreplay, one ex-GF asked after the breakup if non-sexual backrubs were possible.

Katt

@UnBetaMe‌ : Gee, why do men say women are hard to understand? I don't see it...

But let's say you get to a place where your wife basically never says no (hard or soft) and pretty much does whatever you want in bed: oral, anal, any position whatever you're in to, no real resistance. Does that take any of the thrill away for you or do you think it's great?

Kathrynthegreat

Katt said:

@UnBetaMe‌ : Gee, why do men say women are hard to understand? I don't see it... But let's say you get to a place where your wife basically never says no (hard or soft) and pretty much does whatever you want in bed: oral, anal, any position whatever you're in to, no real resistance. Does that take any of the thrill away for you or do you think it's great?

D is in that position and really does like the occasional soft no/play fight/ "make me" kind of thing.  He knows it's going to happen and it seems to excite him if I make him work for it sometimes.  

Angeline

JasonBourne said:

@Angeline
"Your premise is invalid"
Can you elaborate please?

Sorry, weekend w/kids and brand new grandchild and then drive back home. Not ignoring, just busy and exhausted.

Kheldar

Katt said:

@UnBetaMe‌ : Gee, why do men say women are hard to understand? I don't see it... But let's say you get to a place where your wife basically never says no (hard or soft) and pretty much does whatever you want in bed: oral, anal, any position whatever you're in to, no real resistance. Does that take any of the thrill away for you or do you think it's great?

For me, I don't think the lack of nos would add to or detract from the thrill. My thrill comes from knowing she's excited about being with me. Whether that excitement comes with a no first or a yes first doesn't really change the equation. 

MiddleMan

Katt said:

@UnBetaMe‌ : Gee, why do men say women are hard to understand? I don't see it... But let's say you get to a place where your wife basically never says no (hard or soft) and pretty much does whatever you want in bed: oral, anal, any position whatever you're in to, no real resistance. Does that take any of the thrill away for you or do you think it's great?

I would think that would be nirvana. I don't see a downside.

Angeline

LOL you'd be bored in a month. You think it would solve all your heart's (and dick's) desires, because you aren't getting a baseline amount of sex and affection. Several of the FO's arrived here after trying this, basically creating a massive DLV. Even Athol and Jen went through a period of basically being a little bored, because there was no teasing or spark to things. Search the blog for bored, mutual submission deadlock, and try to get out of the mindset that if your spouse would just provide what you want on a platter, everything would be hunky dory. If I can remember any more specific search terms or a couple of blog titles, I'll post them.

Eightbit

Katt said:

So ? for the soft no hating men: Would knowing you could basically have whatever you want from your wife sexually whenever you want it diminish the value / excitement of sex for you at all?

If you're asking if my wife would get into sex regardless every time I initiated, no it would not diminish it at all.

LOL you'd be bored in a month. You think it would solve all your heart's (and dick's) desires, because you aren't getting a baseline amount of sex and affection. Several of the FO's arrived here after trying this, basically creating a massive DLV.

Disagree. You're basically saying any man would become a lazy bear if given the opportunity. I get plenty of sex. But there are nights when I want sex and yet don't want to risk a half assed initiation trying to get her from yellow-red to green. It's not worth the damage to my frame and confidence nor is it worth the bad experience for her. If otoh, she was always willing to go as many hd women I wouldn't suddenly become lazy.

In a nutshell, I'm not awesome to get sex. I'm awesome because it's a fun way to live my life.

MiddleMan

Angeline said:

LOL you'd be bored in a month. You think it would solve all your heart's (and dick's) desires, because you aren't getting a baseline amount of sex and affection. Several of the FO's arrived here after trying this, basically creating a massive DLV. Even Athol and Jen went through a period of basically being a little bored, because there was no teasing or spark to things. Search the blog for bored, mutual submission deadlock, and try to get out of the mindset that if your spouse would just provide what you want on a platter, everything would be hunky dory. If I can remember any more specific search terms or a couple of blog titles, I'll post them.

I also disagree. Sex isn't improved just because I'm risking being turned down. I've been turned down a lot in my life; it hasn't made sex better. On the contrary, it gave me a scarcity mentality that I'm trying to overcome through the MMSL. This shit is hard work! And I want it to lead to the situation that @Katt described. I want all of that! I don't see why I would stop doing this work if I got what I wanted. On the contrary, I'd treasure it BECAUSE it was such hard work to get there, and I don't want to have to start over from scratch! 

Katt

@UnBetaMe‌ Yes, this is where we are currently. It doesn't seem to be boring him, and it was basically my way of trying to solve our soft initiation issue that I don't need to rehash again. And since I addressed the initiation problem and gave the overall green light, he has been initiating well. His wish list apparently wasn't that long (or most of it was already on the menu) because all he really did differently (other than start initiating like a boss again) was get another step rougher (from already pretty rough) and entering the dreaded back door which he had been knocking on unsuccessfully for a long time LOL. I faux resist that all the time but he knows it isn't actual resistance. He already generally controlled sex once it was underway as far as positioning and particulars, it's just that I didn't always offer the access so freely. I try not to invent problems, and so far it doesn't seem to be a problem, but part of me wonders how I can play the pursuit game WITHOUT fucking up the progress we've made. If sex and the marriage overall are going well, it seems stupid for me to throw in a monkey wrench just because I *think* he might get more thrill out of chasing it harder.

Nomad

Katt said:

@UnBetaMe‌ : Gee, why do men say women are hard to understand? I don't see it...

But let's say you get to a place where your wife basically never says no (hard or soft) and pretty much does whatever you want in bed: oral, anal, any position whatever you're in to, no real resistance. Does that take any of the thrill away for you or do you think it's great?

Exactly! Study up on the concept of "intermittent reinforcement". Even simple(r) animals respond better to reward stimuli when the rewards aren't offered with 100% certainty. Why do you think gambling is so addictive for some people?

This also reminds me of the Twilight Zone episode where this guy gets exactly what he wants all the time, only to find out that he's in hell.