Soft Initiating leads to shit test?

redheaded_woman

@newredpillrecruit said:

redheaded_woman said:

@newredpillrecruit‌ said "In short: I think "yellow" is a shit test"

I've put the kids to bed with a headache exhausted and fairly sure I'm on the red end of yellow.

But, then I get in bed with my husband and snuggle up to his warm mostly naked muscles and the switch flips and I'm interested.

Is it a shit test?

Or is that just my body's natural reaction to his body?

"I just surprised myself and realized that I know very little about your back story, RHW.

Not sure of athol's exact wording, but this is probably what he calls an UPWARD relationship trajectory. If you had a downward (or even not upwards for long enough, which is where a lot of guys here get frustrated) trajectory, you would probably be more likely to red him regardless of how warm and muscled up he is.

Maybe you just weren't as close to red as you thought?

Or he's just so bloody muscled up that you couldn't help yourself..."

Well, he does have some very fine biceps.....and when he's already warmed up the blankets....

Consider the RADS flipped!

fredless

"Let's wait until tomorrow"

I've found one of the better ways to deal with this type of resistance is to make comments of agreement all the while continuing the initiation. 

wife:  Let's wait until tomorrow.
man:  I agree.  That's a good idea. [continues molesting wife/removing clothing]
wife:  What are you doing?
man:  Absolutely nothing.  We agreed to wait until tomorrow.  [continues molesting wife/removing clothing]
wife:  blah, blah, blah
man:  Continues agreeing and continues molesting wife/removing clothing

Either you will get a hard no or sex will ensue.  If she gets mad at you with a hard no, look her in the eye, smirk and tell her that her behavior makes no sense. 

Man:  "Wife, I agreed with you that we should wait until tomorrow.  I don't understand what you are angry about."
Wife: You kept trying to take my clothes off! What I say doesn't matter!
Me:  Of course it does.  Didn't you hear me say I agreed with you.

You're showing OI because you are smirking; you're not needy, pouty or angry.  You're having fun.  And you also show no fear of her anger.  And early on in one's Map, you have make believe plausible deniability.

Anyway, this type of behavior has been quite effective for me.  Often now, I just get a resigned smile from my wife when I do this and sex ensues.

fredless

You may be the most Alpha bad-ass, awesome mapping mother fucker who ever walked the planet and your wife is going to throw up resistance from time to time to test your frame. 

Why?

Because on some level, she wants to know that you want her so bad nothing will stop you [Again--please understand that you stop at a hard no.]  In a marriage that spans years, just you having sex with her doesn't show her that you want her.  Pushing through obstacles, batting down shit tests, overcoming resistance shows you want her.  Fucking her hard and rough and losing yourself when you are taking her shows her that you want her. 

Moreover, if she just gives it up too easily every single time, is it something worth having?  Think about it--everything in your life that you truly value you had (or have) to work for.  If it comes too easily, you do not value it or you begin to take it for granted.  I need my wife to give me some resistance.  She is of value and obtaining value should take effort.

Katt

The whole "working for it" thing is why I absolutely had to stop giving in to soft initiations even though it was largely me that got us into that situation. It made me feel undesired and that I wasn't worth him going out on a limb. But once I got up the nerve to tell him I would ignore the weak initiating and of he wanted it he had to take it like a man, he did get back to initiating hard.

Kheldar

Not sure I agree. Some of the best memories of my life have been goofy, fun times I had with my buddies or with family members. They didn't make me work hard. I don't value them any less. Those times are things I wouldn't trade.

So, maybe there is something that makes working hard to have sex with your wife a prerequisite to its enjoyment or value or importance. But, it's not fundamentally (or at least not solely) because nothing of value comes without work. Additional explanation would seem to be required.

Katt

My husband works for my attraction which makes me want to have sex with him. He works to maintain the relationship which makes me comfortable to stay in it. He works for the sex by initiating properly and escalating through any teasing (which was part of my confusion up thread; I didn't consider teasing = resistance/ soft no). I don't see any benefit in arbitrarily actually saying no just to make it harder on him. If I actually wasn't attracted or was feeling really sick or upset about something, sure. But just to keep up the degree of difficulty? Not so much. He works plenty to keep me around and to keep me attracted.

fredless

Katt said:

My husband works for my attraction which makes me want to have sex with him. He works to maintain the relationship which makes me comfortable to stay in it. He works for the sex by initiating properly and escalating through any teasing (which was part of my confusion up thread; I didn't consider teasing = resistance/ soft no). I don't see any benefit in arbitrarily actually saying no just to make it harder on him. If I actually wasn't attracted or was feeling really sick or upset about something, sure. But just to keep up the degree if difficulty? Not so much. He works plenty to keep me around and to keep me attracted.

Exactly.

MiddleMan

@UnBetaMe‌ said: "This makes sense intuitively. However, not for those of us that feel we are putting in the necessary work , but not being rewarded for it."

I feel the same way. (Probably because you and I started MAPping at around the same time.) I think we have to give this time to work; that's what I keep seeing. What's the rule of thumb? A month of MAP per year of marriage?

Kheldar

MiddleMan said:

@UnBetaMe‌ said: "This makes sense intuitively. However, not for those of us that feel we are putting in the necessary work , but not being rewarded for it." I feel the same way. (Probably because you and I started MAPping at around the same time.) I think we have to give this time to work; that's what I keep seeing. What's the rule of thumb? A month of MAP per year of marriage?

Is that month per year based on anything in particular or just something that's been thrown around frequently enough that it's become common wisdom? Don't get me wrong -- generally the longer you've been fucking something up, the longer it's going to take you to fix. That principle makes sense, and I'm sure it applies in nearly every case. But I'm wondering if the actual 1:12 ratio just came out of someone's ass one day.

Katt

@UnBetaMe‌ @MiddleMan‌

I know you guys don't feel you're getting out what you put in. I believe you will get there and i know you especially unbetame are seeing progress already. It takes time to break patterns and establish new ones.

I was more responding to my own prior concern that I might be too sexually available because I don't ever actually say no. So it was sort of my summary of the ways he does work for sex; it's not just pussy on a silver platter for a guy who doesn't deserve it.

_io

Kheldar said:

MiddleMan said:

@UnBetaMe‌ said: "This makes sense intuitively. However, not for those of us that feel we are putting in the necessary work , but not being rewarded for it." I feel the same way. (Probably because you and I started MAPping at around the same time.) I think we have to give this time to work; that's what I keep seeing. What's the rule of thumb? A month of MAP per year of marriage?

Is that month per year based on anything in particular or just something that's been thrown around frequently enough that it's become common wisdom? Don't get me wrong -- generally the longer you've been fucking something up, the longer it's going to take you to fix. That principle makes sense, and I'm sure it applies in nearly every case. But I'm wondering if the actual 1:12 ratio just came out of someone's ass one day.

Yes, but it is a good rule of thumb and not completely inaccurate. Feel free to do the meta-analysis and get back to us with the scientifically measured time tables.

MiddleMan

@fredless‌ said: "Moreover, if she just gives it up too easily every single time, is it something worth having? Think about it--everything in your life that you truly value you had (or have) to work for. If it comes too easily, you do not value it or you begin to take it for granted. I need my wife to give me some resistance. She is of value and obtaining value should take effort."

I understand where you're coming from. But this pisses me off. I am of value, too. My wife should be putting in effort to deserve me. I've had a lot of value for a long time. And I have to put in even more fuckin' work to increase my value?

Goddammit.

Why didn't anyone tell me this 20 years ago? Fuck!

fredless

@UnBetaMe said:

Katt said:

My husband works for my attraction which makes me want to have sex with him. He works to maintain the relationship which makes me comfortable to stay in it. He works for the sex by initiating properly and escalating through any teasing (which was part of my confusion up thread; I didn't consider teasing = resistance/ soft no). I don't see any benefit in arbitrarily actually saying no just to make it harder on him. If I actually wasn't attracted or was feeling really sick or upset about something, sure. But just to keep up the degree if difficulty? Not so much. He works plenty to keep me around and to keep me attracted.

This makes sense intuitively. However, not for those of us that feel we are putting in the necessary work , but not being rewarded for it.  

I guess it means we are doing the wrong work.

Here's the thing--your wife has known you for years as beta-bitch UnBetaMe.  For her, this is who you are.  She is not attracted to that guy.  It's not her fault--no woman can be attracted to that guy.  I'm not picking on you--for years I was beta-bitch fredless.

As you make positive changes in your path to awesomeness, your wife notices.  However, you've been beta-bitch UnBetaMe for so long, she does not believe these changes are real.  She expects beta-bitch UnBetaMe is still her husband.  Every time you lose frame, your wife thinks, "Hello beta-bitch UnBetaMe.  I knew you were still here."  It takes a long time for your wife to accept and believe that Awesome UnBetaMe is who you are.  I think I was about 16 months into my Map before my wife really got it. 

As has been mentioned, you have to look for small victories and build upon them.  Becoming awesome takes time and effort.  And it takes even longer for your wife to believe it.

fredless

MiddleMan said:

fredless‌ said: "Moreover, if she just gives it up too easily every single time, is it something worth having? Think about it--everything in your life that you truly value you had (or have) to work for. If it comes too easily, you do not value it or you begin to take it for granted. I need my wife to give me some resistance. She is of value and obtaining value should take effort."

 I understand where you're coming from. But this pisses me off. I am of value, too. My wife should be putting in effort to deserve me. I've had a lot of value for a long time. And I have to put in even more fuckin' work to increase my value? Goddammit. Why didn't anyone tell me this 20 years ago? Fuck!

She does have to put in effort.  However, you are not in a position to demand/expect it, until you become awesome.  I have directly told my wife that she needs to up her game.  I now direct her in what I like and what I find attractive.  We went out last weekend and she came to me and asked me what I wanted her to wear.  She now wears her hair long because that's what I like.  She only comes to bed in her panties because I have deemed our bed a "no frump zone."  She playfully shit tested me a few months ago by wearing a frumpy t-shirt around the house instead of her 'attactive' clothes--When she went out, I disposed of said shirt.  I get regular bjtc.  She will purposely show me her body to tease me.

None of this happened until I became The Captain...until I became awesome...until I knew I was awesome.  Women are responsive.  Keep Mapping and give her someone to respond to.

MiddleMan

Thanks, @fredless‌, I will. The red pill is bitter. And I'm impatient. But I'm doing the work. And I'm trusting the MAP.

Redford

@MiddleMan‌

You and me both. I so, so, so wish someone had sat me down at 16 and explained this stuff. We wasted years and years of our relationship, struggling because something was wrong, we had no idea what, and no idea how to fix it. Very frustrating.

But try to focus on the positive. You did find MMSL, you did learn was was wrong, and you're actively working at fixing it. That beats the other alternative.

fredless

@MiddleMan said:

Thanks, fredless‌, I will. The red pill is bitter. And I'm impatient. But I'm doing the work. And I'm trusting the MAP.

And it's important, really important, to remember that you are mapping to become awesome.  You are NOT mapping to get sex from your wife.  That's not a map--that's a covert contract.  I'm not saying you're doing this but I am saying that most men, myself included, fall into this line of thinking at some point. 

If my wife left me tomorrow, I wouldn't change anything I do.  I like being awesome.  Happily, my wife is very into my brand of awesome.

jklm

Kheldar said:

So, let's change it up a little bit. You initiate hard -- I don't know, hand down the panties, finger probing. She says, "lets wait until Friday." What's the play? In my "no means no" world, that sounds like a "no." And, I'm a lawyer. Certainly, if I was cross examining a guy on the witness stand and he tried to tell me he didn't think it really meant "no," I could make a jury hate him. 

But, maybe I'm gun shy and mentally skewed. Hard initiation + "let's wait until tomorrow" = back off or ignore her negative response and press on? 

I really love @Kathrynthegreat's "Let's not" response.

But that said - if this happens, I'd say stopping is a valid play. You don't have to read her mind. She might be disappointed, but if so she'll probably make that clear, or at least think more about her phrasing next time. Just whatever you do, don't back off a little without stopping, like maybe keep stroking her but move to G-rated locations for example, in the silent hope that she'll somehow get turned on in the meantime. She will NOT.

CartB4Horse

Update:  As soon as I posted the OP I started realizing the error in my ways.  I also stopped "soft initiating".  Last night I rubbed wifey's back, even played with her ass a bit but had NO intentions and NO covert contracts in play.  It was nice.

Reading more here today makes me realize I need to MAP to become more awesome.  It doesn't matter what happens if I just become as attractive as I can possibly be.  I have had my best success when I didn't give a shit about what happened, ultimate OI prevails.

All my Reds are created by myself and I am the only one that can clean them up, period.  My wife responds well to assertive initiations as MMSL predicts.  I need to stop trying to rewrite the book or work my MAP to get more sex with my wife.  I need to get busy going for kick ass awesome and not worry what happens around me.  Panties will moisten and fall; if they are my wifes then so be it!

hoping4better

MiddleMan said:

Thanks, @fredless‌, I will. The red pill is bitter. And I'm impatient. But I'm doing the work. And I'm trusting the MAP.

Keep in mind it will take her 3-6 months to even notice the changes, then more to believe the changes, then more to perceive the changes are real and she needs to get her shit together.  This is where the 1 month MAP per year of relationship yardstick comes from.  She doe snot see you in real time yet.