Guilt and Shame

Geekengineer

@betazoid

In contrast, the story of Christ, the new Adam, is about a man who maintained his frame during the mother of all shit tests.  (Take note men, how did he do it?  He STFU!)  The scriptures say that, "for the joy that was set before him (he) endured the cross, despising the shame..."  He took responsibility and did what needed to be done, not letting external ideas of shame change his course.  This is not the blue pill story you learned in church!

Have you read Lamb: the Gospel According to Biff, Christ's Childhood Pal?  It's a great book.  It's a fictionalized account of jesus's's 30-ish "missing" years, and it came across being pretty red pill.

My family is catholic, and I attended a few lutheran schools from 5th through 8th grades.  My mom ditched the church when I was an infant, and never took me.  She figured if I wanted to attend a church I could make that decision myself.  My time in those lutheran schools cured me of any possible religious feelings.

The shame and the guilt and the hating of oneself were prevalent at these particular schools.  Every Wednesday we would shuffle into the chapel and be inundated with sermons about how bad we were.  Really, they were horrible, screeching lectures.

And for one day, and one day only, my 8th grade teacher taught about sex.  It was 15 minutes of an explanation of the basic, most general workings of "sperm meets egg, which becomes a person 9 months later," followed by 3 hours of why having sex before marriage makes you worthless and horrible and stupid and evil... ugh.

It was a really negative approach to a very important subject.  While attending those schools, I learned that talking about one's feelings without first thinking about how those feelings would make god feel was just not the right thing to do.  It was god first, and you... what's after last?

Serenity

Are we going to play True Confessions?  lol

Sometimes I've let my mind go places it shouldn't. Especially during our really bad times. It doesn't particularly worry me, but an area where I still need to improve is self-discipline. 

redheaded_woman said:

@Serenity‌ What would you consider "sexual sin"? Obviously EA & PA, but you said you "mess up sexually from time to time." I'm scratching my head over here.

Serenity

Just as an aside, I was raised in a secular household. My parents were nominally Christian, but no church, no Bible, no praying, no mention of God. I remember going to church at my grandma's church once or twice on Easter, but that's it.

However, it's not only churches that try to instill guilt about sex. My dad was a maniac about me and my sister having sex with a boyfriend. Constant fears that we would be  'bad girls' and get pregnant. Interrogations after we'd get home from dates. The man was nutz about the topic. (Not so for my brothers, incidentally.)

He did his best to instill guilt in me about being a sexual person.

Um .... it didn't take. lol

Rico

betazoid said:

In contrast, the story of Christ, the new Adam, is about a man who maintained his frame during the mother of all shit tests.  (Take note men, how did he do it?  He STFU!)  The scriptures say that, "for the joy that was set before him (he) endured the cross, despising the shame..."  He took responsibility and did what needed to be done, not letting external ideas of shame change his course.  This is not the blue pill story you learned in church!

You should check out the book "No More Christian Nice Guy" - it deals with this topic in depth

liquid

betazoid said:

Thanks @liquid.  It is hard to put into words, but it does make sense.

Do you think that the bad habits had anything to do with the guilt?

In my own experience I see that many of the bad habits I had developed were reinforced by the constraints that I placed on the relationship in an to attempt to mitigate the guilt.  I wonder, if my relationships had been free to form more organically, would those bad habits have taken root to the extent that they did?

I think that the bad habits were very simple - sex was all about him. His goal became getting me aroused enough for enjpoyable piv. If I needed more...well, I needed to figure that out. He was doing his part.

betazoid

mrs_h said:

When we started making out all the time, usually the strongest temptations came right after talking things through, and when we both thought our relationship would not end in marriage.  So, the our physical part of our relationship became a false comfort.  Happily, now that we are married, sex is a true comfort, a sort of confirmation of our vows, after conflict.

Thanks for your reply.  If I read this correctly, you felt a need to be physical when the relationship was at its weakest points?  Why do you think this was?  I ask because I've felt it in my relationships too.  Is it just an attempt to bond so the relationship stays together?

Anyway, I'm with @Serenity, in that sex sins shouldn't be seen as particularly worse than other sins.  However, maybe I'm misunderstanding the definition of guilt and shame, which aren't bad in themselves.  I should feel ashamed of being unkind, etc., but not after confession and absolution/forgiveness.

Is there a time when unkindness is necessary?  The "nice guy" in me says no, but then I don't feel much shame when I hang up on telemarketers.  Being unkind to someone who has shown me kindness is shameful.  But why?  Is is because the church or the Bible told is so?  Or because we know we aren't living up to our own standards?

betazoid

mrs_h said:

Did the guilt play any role in your relationship before you married? Not sure what you mean here. We definitely went through the cycle of "trying to do better," which was naive. We couldn't practice self-control w/o outside help and accountability. We were on the same page about what we were not supposed to be doing. Was it a positive force or negative?

Not sure what you mean, here, either. Guilt after legitimate sin is good when it ends in repentance and forgiveness. Guilt is bad when it doesnt end and you ultimately want to keep it (God can't forgive me) and dwell on it and make it your identity. It becomes an idol. We also went through the resolve/fail cycle, but pride kept us from getting outside help. Often (usually) sheer will is futile, because you're fighting both sinful nature and biology (not the same thing, by the way).

What I was trying to get at was whether or not the guilt made the relationship better or worse.  Did the guilt of your actions drive you and your husband to make changes that made your relationship stronger or weaker?  Did it call into question or reaffirm your decision to marry each other?

the biggest problem I see with the first relationship you described is she wasn't really as convinced as you were not to have sex. Big red flag there, and probably doomed from the start.

Interesting.  I generally take the opposite view--that my guilt and shame was the red flag.  It caused me to do numerous things that sabotaged the relationship in the long run.  Attempting to live my life by a moral code that was handed to me by my parents and my church, rather than by my internal convictions, caused me to become conflicted and lose my way.  What woman wants to be with a man who has no direction of his own and is not even confident enough to take her clothes off without feeling ashamed?

betazoid

Geekengineer said:

Have you read Lamb: the Gospel According to Biff, Christ's Childhood Pal?  It's a great book.  It's a fictionalized account of jesus's's 30-ish "missing" years, and it came across being pretty red pill.

No, I have not read it.  I assume it's satire.  I'll have to read it.

The shame and the guilt and the hating of oneself were prevalent at these particular schools.  Every Wednesday we would shuffle into the chapel and be inundated with sermons about how bad we were.  Really, they were horrible, screeching lectures.

And for one day, and one day only, my 8th grade teacher taught about sex.  It was 15 minutes of an explanation of the basic, most general workings of "sperm meets egg, which becomes a person 9 months later," followed by 3 hours of why having sex before marriage makes you worthless and horrible and stupid and evil... ugh.

It was a really negative approach to a very important subject.  While attending those schools, I learned that talking about one's feelings without first thinking about how those feelings would make god feel was just not the right thing to do.  It was god first, and you... what's after last?

I can relate.  I attended a Baptist high school that also had mandatory weekly chapel services.  And yes, most were horrible.  I don't recall any form of sex ed in our school, but I may just be blocking the memory from my mind in order to maintain my sanity.  However, the implicit message was made clear:  sex outside of marriage is an abomination and those who participate are not "saved" and will go straight to hell after their lives STD infected misery on earth.  I'm pretty sure my parents still think I'm going to hell...

betazoid

Rico said:

You should check out the book "No More Christian Nice Guy" - it deals with this topic in depth

I just watched a YouTube video from the author.  It sounds right up my alley.  Thanks for the tip.

betazoid

liquid said:

I think that the bad habits were very simple - sex was all about him. His goal became getting me aroused enough for enjpoyable piv. If I needed more...well, I needed to figure that out. He was doing his part.

But those habits were formed in isolation from the guilt?  Or did the fact that you "couldn't (or didn't) have PIV sex prior to marriage contribute to the formation of those habits?  Basically I'm asking if his habit of selfishness started because the nature of premarital sex was directed more toward him, or if he was just naturally inclined to not worry as much about your satisfaction.

I only ask because I found that (with my high school girlfriend) I became selfish and not really considerate of her feelings or needs.  I think this was partly due to my inexperience, so she led most of the encounters, but also because I couldn't relax in the moment and enjoy her body because of the feelings of guilt I had.  With my wife it was a bit different, I had learned to repress the guilty feelings, so I could relax more, but she couldn't and so the cycle continued and a different set of bad habits have been engrained.  Now I'm the one who wants to enjoy her and explore her sexuality in addition to my own, but she doesn't allow it.

BrianC

I am often a very odd man out in spiritual discussions, and so I often just stay away from them, but I thought my perspective could be helpful here.

1. In your religious community was/is sex considered shameful?  In what ways was/is that shame conveyed?

In my religious community sex is seen as the highest sacrament.  It is a moment when you get in touch with the primeval gods and goddesses from whom you arise, and to whom your soul is forever linked.  Consensual Sex is the simplest and purest way of knowing the Divine.  It is seen as a great corruption to attach ideas of shame or sinfulness to sex. To make someone ashamed of sexuality is to harm them on a spiritual level.

Marriages in my religious community are kept to a year and a day unless the couple chooses to devote themselves to longer periods of time, or if they have children together during that marriage.  This is to ensure that no one is bound or obligated to sexual and emotional connections with a person for whom they no longer feel attraction and desire.

Sex without consent, OTOH, is seen as most horrific perversion of humanity's divine nature. Rapists and molesters are cast out of our communities with a sort of hate and vitriol that is hard to describe.

2. Were your early sexual experiences accompanied with guilt?  If so, how do you think that influenced your intimate relationships at the time and since?

Despite a religious community that sees sex as sacred and a blessing that ought to be free I still felt extreme shame and tentativeness in my first sexual encounters. The reasons for this were twofold:

First, because when I was young I was molested (I don't count this as my first sexual encounter) I felt like I was tainted.  My faith holds non-consensual sex in such absolute horror that I couldn't help but feel like I was "tainted" by my experiences.  The extreme pro-sex attitudes essentially backfired on me, because sexuality is considered so fundamentally linked to your soul.

Second, there are several feminist groups that have infiltrated and changed my religion that take extreme views. Even if your particular practice doesn't include them, you can't help but hear opinions within the broader community that all masculine sexuality is tainted, or that all men who don't purify themselves of old school masculinities are essentially engaging in sex to which women cannot consent.  It isn't the mainstream of the faith, but it is powerful within it.  And as a young man who had been exposed to the worst that male sexuality has to offer, I couldn't help but swallow it.

I performed prayers and purifications before my first sexual encounters to make sure I wasn't tainted by the dark side of masculinity.   It made me one extremely beta lover, to say the least.

3. Have you reconciled with, or made amends for, any guilt or shame you felt previously about your sexuality?  If so, how?

This took a long time.  First, I had to reject a lot of the extreme feminism I had espoused outside of my religion.  Once I did that, I took some time away from religious practice.  When I came back to it, I spent a lot of time contemplating the Divine Masculine in deed and action - learning swordsmanship, camping, volunteering among other men who do charitable community work, going on vision-quests.

I had to make peace with the Masculine, see that there was no great taint to it, and that even the darker more voracious aspects of male sexuality were desirable and had a place in the human sexual experience.

I also had to seeks some help for the bullying and sexual assaults in my past.  Some professional, some spiritual.  I had to forgive the boys who abused me, and choose to move on.

In a way, serving Men as a life coach is very much a part of my spiritual experience.  I help others make peace with their masculinity to help me be at peace with it.  I write and talk about what is good and positive about Manhood, so that I always have a reason to explore the good in it.

The reason I shared this:

No religion is without its narratives about Sex.  You can come from the most sexually liberal religious community in the world about Sex, and you can still have hangups.  Sex is important to us on a primal, biological level, and we can't help but to assign it a deep, spiritual significance.  But as soon as something becomes spiritually important, no matter in what way, there is going to be room for it to become a terrible source of pain.

I have been privileged to work with many men of different beliefs and have heard a range of stories both similar and very different from my own. In my experience, it requires a willingness to take a step back from and a deep examination of our beliefs to find a way to address that pain.  For some that retreat may have to be permanent.  For others, it is a chance to turn your faith from a source of pain, to a source of incredible strength.

liquid

BrianC said:

 In my experience, it requires a willingness to take a step back from and a deep examination of our beliefs to find a way to address that pain.  For some that retreat may have to be permanent.  For others, it is a chance to turn your faith from a source of pain, to a source of incredible strength.

Thanks for this.

JellyBean

@BrianC‌ thank you for sharing this perspective. May I ask, is the spiritual path you currently follow the one in which you were raised?

BrianC

@Liquid My pleasure.

@JellyBean, you may certainly ask.  My parents left the church that they attended very when I was young in protest because it excluded gay men from the clergy and my parents supported gay rights very strongly.  I was encouraged to find my own path after that. I was initiated into my current path at 13 years old.