Wife ambivalent about monogamy

Unplugged

Few more factoids guys:

* From the very beginning, the wife's been resistant to therapy and I've pushed it hard. Her offer of six months is a major concession from my point of view. Each session has been very painful for her. Further, it's conditional on complete truth and fidelity. Any deviations, we're finished.

* I now have a complete dossier on the OM. If and when I choose to expose the affair, it will be uncompromising. Until that time, I'm assessing my options on a day to day basis.

* If there's another 911 over this, it will be very simple for me. We'll be done and I'll get on with my previously stated plan of fucking thirty year olds -- until that gets boring.

* And yes, the libido increase is a clear case of what's called "hysterical bonding." Worth a Google if you're interested.

IceMan

Jeesh, what is it that keeps you from contacting the OM's wife? If you are trying to be the nice guy or reasonable they will take advantage of you. I understand that Ashley Madison caters to men and women who are looking for something with no strings attached and perhaps he is gone never to look back. Or this evolved into a full affair and you are taking the risk he won't try to make contact again. Or your wife relapses, it happens. 

If you are concerned about destroying someone needlessly, I wouldn't. The OM's marriage is none of your or your wife's concern. In my opinion the decision to contact the wife is strictly strategically needed to keep your marriage in tact. This is not a morality question at all. The morality train left the station when they chose to commit adultery.

Your action should be driven by whether they are going to advance your goals or not and I think that a strong argument has been made here as to why this is important to your goals. This is the right thing to do.

I would go as far as contacting his employer if he uses his companies phone or communications in anyway to hide his affair from his wife. 

I am not sure if I stated in this thread or not but at first I took a measured response to the OM and it was a big mistake that set me back almost a year and laid on more layers of lies and betrayal that we have to carry around. I can say pretty confidently that what ever reason you have for holding back, it's not worth it.

Changed_Man

I agree with @IceMan‌

Part of Nice Guy Syndrome is the inability to properly prioritize your needs over others.

Dopamine is no different than heroin, it hits the same receptors. Your wife is still craving it from the OM. Even seemingly inconsequential contact keeps it flowing, which is why it's essential to keep them separated for many weeks... Otherwise you can be back at square one. Blowing up the affair with the OMW will keep him so busy dealing with his own shit that he will have no time or inclination to continue pursuing your wife.

If saving your marriage is a 'need' for you... Now would be the time to prioritize you.

SMan

Hey @unplugged , just wanted to congratulate you on playing your scenario so well.  You've been handling it like a boss, so far. and you're watching your W with an eagle eye, which is key.

Lots of fire & brimstone has been directed your way, but all of it well-intentioned, by guys who've seen the damage done.

Do you think you could set yourself up with one of your lawyer buddies- fill him in on your situation and have his cell number on speed dial "just in case" something goes down with a domestic police call, or a divorce ambush?

Of course, the most important thing to do is have your "official" communications monitoring, the stuff she's opened up to you about, and then the "deep cover" monitoring she doesn't know about. Let's you see how she acts when she thinks she's got a secret communications channel. Even more so than contact with other men, any contact by her with a lawyer should be grounds for . . . well, you know what.

Anyways, wanted to say: good on ya, @Unplugged!  You've been mastering this better than most of the guys who've come onto MMSL fresh from an affair discovery.

Changed_Man

SMan said:

Of course, the most important thing to do is have your "official" communications monitoring, the stuff she's opened up to you about, and then the "deep cover" monitoring she doesn't know about. Let's you see how she acts when she thinks she's got a secret communications channel. Even more so than contact with other men, any contact by her with a lawyer should be grounds for . . . well, you know what.

Yup, this is what 'trust but verify' looks like.

mixnmatch

I want to clear a few things up about AM because this an AM affair.  I know several people, men and women who are involved in AM relationships.  Most AM affairs are not NSA one night stands.  Most people are looking for a very discrete LTR that involves semi regular sex with the same person.  NSA sex does result because anybody with a family, a solid job, sports, kids and more will not waste time dating someone that doesn't give them what is missing in their main relationship.  The men and women I know that are currently in AM relationships are looking to fill what has been missing in their main relationship with a regular partner.  

However, the positive for our OP here is that people (if based on the facts I have heard) go to AM because they have ZERO interest in leaving their partner and that's why they went for a completely discrete AM affair in the first place.  Also, OP is extremely lucky that his wife even knows their last names as most AM relationships are completely discrete and never leave the AM website.  OP's wife probably doesn't even know the last names of they guys she went on a few dates with unless they were complete idiots.

Unplugged

@mixnmatch: Your description of AM relationships mirrors what my wife has been saying all along. She needs to prove that there's not more to the relationship, but I have remained slightly more optimistic because of the way those relationships typically go.

@SMan: Thanks for the props, I could use them.

To everyone telling me to expose the OM: I'm not sure you all really understand where I am on this. I am not at all convinced that exposing this guy is in my personal interest. I've made it clear to my wife that the guy is poison to us, that any contact needs to be disclosed immediately with me having control over any response, and that the penalty for noncompliance is divorce. I mean every word of this. I really do not want this guy entangled with me any more than he already is. Also I have serious questions about whether I would be making the OM's wife better or worse off and I'm going to consider that carefully before doing anything impulsive. To those of you that think immediate exposure offers an advantage, good for you but you're not in my shoes. If and when it makes sense to expose, I have what I need to do that quickly.

To everyone advising I get a lawyer: I do intend to get someone "speed dialable" who knows enough about me to respond quickly. I don't think this is urgent but I will do it.

To everyone thinking therapy is useless or shows weakness: You really are missing the point on this. This gives me a forum to pound my issues and get what I need to have a chance at a good marriage. This is in addition to the normal communications between me and the wife. What's important to me gets attacked from more than one angle. It helps a lot that the therapist is talented and gets that my needs are real and foundational. And it also forces me to focus on my own issues without taking the wife's complaints at face value. IMO it makes succeeding in marriage much more likely, and will help clarify the time to walk, if that time comes. It's so essential to me that if she didn't agree to extensive therapy I would proceed to divorce immediately.

To everyone to who thinks her tears may be false and her remorse might be an act: You're right, this might be true. I'm playing a long game though -- and the combination of pressure and time will be enough to bring the truth out. If she plays a game of running out the clock -- then she's not strong enough to remain married to me.

To everyone thinking I'm doing something else wrong: You're probably right, no doubt I'm doing many things wrong. This thing is a huge mind fuck and distinguishing truth from fiction is hard. I'm doing the best I can.

Changed_Man

@Unplugged

No worries... take the advise you can use and ignore the rest. No egos here will be bruised.

The folks here on the forum have the seen this tragedy play out too many times to count and, if there's one indisputable truth, it's cheaters operate from a universal script. This is reason for our consensus in your situation.

It's clear you're in a good mental state and have a sound plan that works for you. I have no doubt that regardless of the outcome, you're going to be just fine.

Im_a_Man

I've got to respect what @unplugged has said. 

He has a zero tolerance on sneaky cheating behavior, due to his past depression/isolating behavior he admits that he's willing to make this a one time concession.

She's got her one shot.

mixnmatch

Unplugged said:

@mixnmatch: Your description of AM relationships mirrors what my wife has been saying all along. She needs to prove that there's not more to the relationship, but I have remained slightly more optimistic because of the way those relationships typically go.

@SMan: Thanks for the props, I could use them.

To everyone telling me to expose the OM: I'm not sure you all really understand where I am on this. I am not at all convinced that exposing this guy is in my personal interest. I've made it clear to my wife that the guy is poison to us, that any contact needs to be disclosed immediately with me having control over any response, and that the penalty for noncompliance is divorce. I mean every word of this. I really do not want this guy entangled with me any more than he already is. Also I have serious questions about whether I would be making the OM's wife better or worse off and I'm going to consider that carefully before doing anything impulsive. To those of you that think immediate exposure offers an advantage, good for you but you're not in my shoes. If and when it makes sense to expose, I have what I need to do that quickly.

To everyone advising I get a lawyer: I do intend to get someone "speed dialable" who knows enough about me to respond quickly. I don't think this is urgent but I will do it.

To everyone thinking therapy is useless or shows weakness: You really are missing the point on this. This gives me a forum to pound my issues and get what I need to have a chance at a good marriage. This is in addition to the normal communications between me and the wife. What's important to me gets attacked from more than one angle. It helps a lot that the therapist is talented and gets that my needs are real and foundational. And it also forces me to focus on my own issues without taking the wife's complaints at face value. IMO it makes succeeding in marriage much more likely, and will help clarify the time to walk, if that time comes. It's so essential to me that if she didn't agree to extensive therapy I would proceed to divorce immediately.

To everyone to who thinks her tears may be false and her remorse might be an act: You're right, this might be true. I'm playing a long game though -- and the combination of pressure and time will be enough to bring the truth out. If she plays a game of running out the clock -- then she's not strong enough to remain married to me.

To everyone thinking I'm doing something else wrong: You're probably right, no doubt I'm doing many things wrong. This thing is a huge mind fuck and distinguishing truth from fiction is hard. I'm doing the best I can.

Remember to keep in mind that the dopamine hits are the same whether an AM affair or traditional. However, I do believe that someone in an AM affair like your wife will much more likely to abandon the OM.  I think you in particular have better odds because you are armed with the knowledge from this forum.

AlphaGuy

Just read through the whole thread. Sorry I missed it from the beginning, I was on spring break in the sunshine with the kids and wife!

While I think that AM affairs are different than ones that happen by chance, most cheaters are actively seeking sex whether they consciously know it or not. My wife told me she couldn't articulate what was missing from our relationship and was actively flirting (unconsciously) with just about any man she knew. Eventually one bit. Cheaters may think they can keep their feelings out of the affair, but dopamine is a strong drug and many fall for their sex partners. 

As a side story as to why affairs are bad and why you need to do your homework before you get married (I did not and this is why I ended up with a cheating wife). My wife was married for a couple of years in her early 20s and quickly realized she made a mistake. During that marriage, she and her first husband decided to do a little wife swapping (all of this came out after my wife's EA a couple years back). So, they start swapping wives every couple of weeks for a while. All was fun and games until the OM starts falling "in love" with my future wife. It caused a lot of problems. She ran from the whole situation and got a divorce. This was about 10 years before I met her. Moral of the story, do your homework before you get married. I still have regrets about my mate choice to this day also people go into affairs thinking its just for the sex and it it turns into something much bigger. 

Anyway, I think you are handling this waaaay better than I did three years ago. It took me forever to build up the courage to blow it up, like 2 months because she wouldn't stop seeing him. Finally, I had enough and called the OMW. Sounds like you might not have to do that in this case. If you are absolutely sure she isn't in contact with him, then I see no need to contact OMW about this.

Therapy for me and my wife was a must. We saw the same guy for several months, but separate sessions. He hammered on her about stopping the contact. It finally sunk into her thick skull and she made a conscious choice to work on the marriage again and things have been much better since then. As long as you can afford it, 

We all make mistakes. One thing I learned from here and Talk About Marriage was that you have to take what everyone says with a grain of salt. They are not on the battlefield with you but in this virtual world. Most of it's good advice, but it's easy to sit here and give advice when we are not in the heat of the situation.

This is a marathon, you just past the first mile marker and have 25 more miles to go! There will be a lot of ups and downs along the way...

Crashaxe

AlphaGuy said:

most cheaters are actively seeking sex whether they consciously know it or not.

Cheaters may think they can keep their feelings out of the affair, but dopamine is a strong drug and many fall for their sex partners. 

also people go into affairs thinking its just for the sex and it it turns into something much bigger.

The whole post is awesome. These excerpts are quoted for truth. It sucks, but it is what it is.

AlphaGuy

When my wife start really going into high gear looking for sex, I was such a Nice Guy I couldn't stand up to her. She started reading books on monogamy searching the internet for swinging. Started telling me she knew a couple down the road that was into swinging and we should try it. That was a deal breaker for me right there and told her NO! I think she was just trying to get into bed with the husband of that couple of which she eventually had the affair. She was just trying to justify it in her head. 

Questioning monogamy is a huge red flag if you have been married for a long time. My wife will still brings it up occasionally, but what is a 50 year old woman (my wife) going to do? Blow up her marriage and leave her kids for some fun sex? As most women realize when they get around 50 (unfortunately) their sex rank just starts to tank. It's the nature of the beast and not much anyone can do about it. While most men's sex ranks still climb for a while. My wife's sex rank is still pretty high for her age and sure I fantasize about trading her in for a newer, younger model sometimes. I would be trading one set of headaches for another so I strive for a great marriage and we get along great right now.

The moral here is if there is anyway you can save your marriage and have great sex and connect with your wife, that is going to be a whole lot easier than divorcing and splitting everything up... All you can do is work on yourself and always try to be a better you. Sounds corny but it's true...

mixnmatch

I hope this isn't a thread jack!

@alphaguy wrote, "most cheaters are actively seeking sex whether they consciously know it or not. My wife told me she couldn't articulate what was missing from our relationship and was actively flirting (unconsciously) with just about any man she knew. Eventually one bit. "

This exact situation is what got me on this site just in time.  Thank you MMSL.  I was beta nice guy too.  Almost zero sex and a smoking hot wife.  Very frustrating.  So one day I started looking around the internet and started reading sites that teach you how to game women.  I thought, "if my wife doesn't want me I will find someone else to sleep with!"  I never did I just decided to work on my marriage instead.

But what I learned on those gaming sites was how to read body language and listen for clues that women are open to cheating or want to have sex with you.  Well, holy crap was I surprised my wife had ALL of the signs that she was open to cheating when she was around other men.  Even in front of me.  She would touch other men on the shoulder, constantly laugh, make eye contact, orbit, compliment, primp herself up etc.  She would talk negatively about me to other men, sometimes even in front of me.  All serious signs a married woman is open to cheating.  Talking negatively about your husband is the #1 sign a woman wants to cheat and my wife was doing that.

If you look at @alphaguy 's quote herein applied to my wife she didn't even know she was actively seeking sex or unconsciously flirting.  I became so worried about her cheating I went online looking for answers.  That is how I found MMSL and thank God I did.  I thought if this is what she is doing when I'm around one of these guys is going to "bite" for sure when I'm not around.  Today thanks to 16 months of MMSL I don't see any of those signs I saw 16 months ago but I sure still see them in my friend's wives which is tragic.

AlphaGuy

@mixnmatch It was painful to watch. My wife would automatically gravitate towards the men and become the center of attention at social gatherings. After MMSL and Dr. Glover reprogrammed my way of living my life, she responded and started hanging out with the women. In our circle of friends, most of the guys are pretty alpha, except one guy. He hangs with the women and she with the men. He is a complete beta orbiter and she a total alpha female. BTW, this was the guy she tried to have an affair with and yes we still see them in our social circle, but three years have healed a lot of wounds. But yes, after taking the red pill sometimes you just want to walk up to people and bang them in the head to make sure they get on the right track...

OK, back to your normally schedule thread...

markymapo

mixnmatch said:

I hope this isn't a thread jack!

@alphaguy wrote, "most cheaters are actively seeking sex whether they consciously know it or not. My wife told me she couldn't articulate what was missing from our relationship and was actively flirting (unconsciously) with just about any man she knew. Eventually one bit. "

This exact situation is what got me on this site just in time.  Thank you MMSL.  I was beta nice guy too.  Almost zero sex and a smoking hot wife.  Very frustrating.  So one day I started looking around the internet and started reading sites that teach you how to game women.  I thought, "if my wife doesn't want me I will find someone else to sleep with!"  I never did I just decided to work on my marriage instead.

But what I learned on those gaming sites was how to read body language and listen for clues that women are open to cheating or want to have sex with you.  Well, holy crap was I surprised my wife had ALL of the signs that she was open to cheating when she was around other men.  Even in front of me.  She would touch other men on the shoulder, constantly laugh, make eye contact, orbit, compliment, primp herself up etc.  She would talk negatively about me to other men, sometimes even in front of me.  All serious signs a married woman is open to cheating.  Talking negatively about your husband is the #1 sign a woman wants to cheat and my wife was doing that.

If you look at @alphaguy 's quote herein applied to my wife she didn't even know she was actively seeking sex or unconsciously flirting.  I became so worried about her cheating I went online looking for answers.  That is how I found MMSL and thank God I did.  I thought if this is what she is doing when I'm around one of these guys is going to "bite" for sure when I'm not around.  Today thanks to 16 months of MMSL I don't see any of those signs I saw 16 months ago but I sure still see them in my friend's wives which is tragic.

Spot on post!! If anyone reading this notices these signs, you need to be aware of what may happen. Any decent looking alpha woman who has somewhat of a head on her shoulders wields tremendous power. To combat that you need to up your SR. Not just what you think it is, but what SHE thinks it is.

Version3

Unplugged said:

To everyone thinking I'm doing something else wrong: You're probably right, no doubt I'm doing many things wrong. This thing is a huge mind fuck and distinguishing truth from fiction is hard. I'm doing the best I can.

Goes over much better when you say it, @Unplugged, than when I do. 

Again, good on ya. And best of luck.

Joskin_Nodd

@AlphaGuy: "do your homework before you get married"

I think that's mostly a lesson learned through experience. You might be able to appreciate it, when young, if you've had a lot of girlfriends. My first real girlfriend (the woman I married) was in college. I could step back through time and tell younger me to do his homework before the marriage, and 22 year old me would have no fucking clue what 45 year old me was talking about. 

And I mean, I think I could have spelled it out for young me in pretty specific detail, and I still would have been like: that doesn't sound true, I'm a special snowflake, all these red flags are just bumps in the road. Yadayada. You learn from doing.  

AlphaGuy

At 22 I had no intention of getting married. I didn't really want to settle down until my late 20s when I got more serious about the women I was hanging out with. But even then I was a bit of a nice guy. I would get Oneitis whenever I started dating a girl for a couple of weeks. I scared a lot of them off quickly. One of the things that came out after my wife's EA was a partner count. It's one of those crucial questions you need to ask before getting married. We we were both about 30 and both had had several LTRs before meeting her. So I knew she had at least a couple of partners. After her infidelity problems she told me she thinks she had sex with 33 different guys. (She thinks, many were drunken 1 night stands she can't remember them all) I think I had had sex with 6 women by the time I was 30. This was a HUGE red flag. I was too nice to ask her that question. I probably would've moved on to a different woman if I had known that... Caveat Emptor!

mixnmatch

Spot on post!! If anyone reading this notices these signs, you need to be aware of what may happen. Any decent looking alpha woman who has somewhat of a head on her shoulders wields tremendous power. To combat that you need to up your SR. Not just what you think it is, but what SHE thinks it is.

The bold part above is the essence of MMSL. Market value sex rank and your wive's perceived value of your sex rank are completely different.  

I have a friend who looks like the better looking version of one Hollywood's best looking males.  He has charm, looks and body.  His market value is around 11+.  But I would bet his wife thinks he is about a 5/6 when she is about an 8 possible 9 if they didn't have kids.  This week I was talking to her when I went to pick up my kids from their house.  Wife, "H drinks to much, he works to many hours, he doesn't make enough money, we fight constantly, ....."  

Yet my friend has 10+ woman approach him every single place we go which makes him wonder why in the world his wife doesn't to have sex with him.  It's market value SR vs wife perceived SR.  Hopefully I can get him on the MMSL.