Wife ambivalent about monogamy

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  • SManSMan Silver Member Posts: 1,126
    edited April 2014
    Also, find out about what the divorce rules are in your state, and how divorces tend to work out for the man & the woman in your city's family law courts.  The only way to do this is set up a consult with a good family law attorney.

    If a woman thinks she can have her cake and eat it too when it comes to affairs and her marriage ending, that her beta boy would never really pull the trigger . . . Nothing puts the fear of God into such a woman like finding out her husband has done his research, for real, knows what the real deal is . . . and, well . . . maybe she better think twice about whether he'll pull the trigger, for real . . .

    You don't let her know what you know, or even that you've talked to a lawyer until it comes down to the nitty grittys. Don't fling it at her during an argument.  Don't get emotional when she creates drama.  It should be done in response to her crossing a clear line of refusal.

    When she hamsters about affairs, what happened on AM, blames you for the affairs, dares you to divorce her, or whatever other drama she causes . . . that's when you sit her down, totally calm yourself, no raised voice . . .  and you  tell her: "here's what your upcoming divorce is going to look like for you . . . "

    UnpluggedThe_DudeChanged_Manmixnmatch
  • _io_io Silver Member Posts: 1,821
     
    Thanks, that makes a lot of sense. I think this is the area in which I'm furthest behind. I keep expecting her to act like a logical vulcan and continually get surprised that she's not.
    You obviously have bad pattern recognition ability.  Definitely immerse yourself into MMSLP.
    Unplugged
  • UnpluggedUnplugged Out WestSilver Member Posts: 46
    SMan said:
    When she hamsters about affairs, what happened on AM, blames you for the affairs, dares you to divorce her, or whatever other drama she causes . . . that's when you sit her down, totally calm yourself, no raised voice . . .  and you  tell her: "here's what your upcoming divorce is going to look like for you... "

    Great thoughts, thanks for that. One thing I'm sure she doesn't know (because I haven't felt the need to tell her) is that about 1/4 of our combined assets is my mother's inheritance, which isn't community property. All mine.
    CapsterThe_DudeCrashaxeAngeline
  • UnpluggedUnplugged Out WestSilver Member Posts: 46
    edited April 2014
    Yes, she did cheat. Saying she didn't have sex is your rationalization hamster at work — she would have had sex if your timing was off. Nobody goes to Ashley Madison unless they intend to cheat, and the intention is a bigger red flag than the act.

    Saying that, I have every hope that you can recover from this ... if you decide you want to.
    At the moment, that's the thing. I've given her every opportunity to win my trust and she keeps defending herself. If I had to choose right now, we're done. Kind of pisses me off that she might benefit from my MAP improvements -- not the right attitude, I know.

    Meantime, I'm going to re-read everything on your list (because I've read it all once at this point) and make sure I'm taking actions.
  • Version3Version3 Silver Member Posts: 1,906
    My ex had an EA and online sex. She also said she was glad a) she did it and b) glad I found out. In her case, though, she was too far gone, and although I mapped hard I couldn't save the marriage. I hope you;re not in a similar spot, but it is extremely serious.

    Stop talking to her about it, and start mapping and changing your behavior.

    "The pain of discipline is a tiny thing compared to the pain of regret."
     
    It's an obstacle. Get over it.

    Unplugged
  • OneEyedDrunkOneEyedDrunk Out West Silver Member Posts: 1,808
    I was on AM and stopped myself when I found MMSL. It's a tough situation. On some level her needs were not being met. Look at what you can do to increase attraction, and give her what she needs. Immerse yourself into the a Primer. I can attest to the positive improvements I a have been able to make in my marriage.

    A common statement is to be the man she would have an affair with. That totally holds true. Cheaters sext each other. They meet up for lunch and heavy petting afterwards. They talk dirty to each other. My wife calls me a dirty man. We have parked around the corner from her job while I grope and make out with her.

    The Strategies in the a Primer can change your marriage for the better. If you want to stay married of course.

    oneeyeddrunk.weebly.com
    MiddleMantexascfguy[Deleted User]mixnmatch
  • Version3Version3 Silver Member Posts: 1,906
    Forgot to mention that my ex shared the "ambivalent about monogamy" feeling. She saw an open marriage as perhaps the only way to save the family. I couldn't get on board with that at all. I think she still may think I was the ultimate cause of the breakup, but I sure don't see it that way.

    Coincidentally, today is the day I may have the meet/shake hands with the BF for the first time. Not the same guy she EA'd with, BTW.

    "The pain of discipline is a tiny thing compared to the pain of regret."
     
    It's an obstacle. Get over it.

  • UnpluggedUnplugged Out WestSilver Member Posts: 46
    Forgot to mention that my ex shared the "ambivalent about monogamy" feeling. She saw an open marriage as perhaps the only way to save the family. I couldn't get on board with that at all. I think she still may think I was the ultimate cause of the breakup, but I sure don't see it that way.

    Coincidentally, today is the day I may have the meet/shake hands with the BF for the first time. Not the same guy she EA'd with, BTW.
    Ugh. My wife blurted out the possibility of an open marriage during a tense discussion. She changed her tune when she saw me packing a suitcase and looked her in the eye and said "I will never agree to an open marriage with you."

    I feel the anger building now.
    Joskin_NoddWarriorMonk
  • SManSMan Silver Member Posts: 1,126
    edited April 2014

    Ugh. My wife blurted out the possibility of an open marriage during a tense discussion. She changed her tune when she saw me packing a suitcase and looked her in the eye and said "I will never agree to an open marriage with you."

    I feel the anger building now.
    This may be a critical difference between you and your W that may not be possible to reconcile, @Unplugged

    Certain people are not monogamous, and are either open to, or even want, 'open relationships' or swinging.

    Certain people are monogamous, and if this is truly a fundamental difference between the two of you, trying to stay in a marriage where the two of you meet each others needs may be like trying to mix oil and water.

    Just sayin . . .

    I suppose what's important now is to find out whether this is something structural with her (and IME for certain people it is) or whether she was just hamstering/rationalizing her going outside the marriage to get sex when she had lost attraction to you by 'theorizing' about open relationships.

    Did you get the impression she was talking about it as a way for the both of you to get your sexual needs met? Figuring out where she's at concerning monogamy may be critical.

    Because if she just doesn't want to be monogamous/wants some outside strange/wants the thrill of illicit stuff like prowling for affairs where she might get caught (i.e. if there is anything structural here) then her Hoovering you back in this time won't solve the root issue.

    In fact, if she just has the itch open relationships, she may just figure out how to have better security when she goes for some strange next time . . . unless the interest in open relationships was only theoretical . . .

    _______________________________________________

    Also- whatever you do don't let anger eat at you.  The person you hurt most when you nurse anger is yourself.
    UnpluggedHildaCorners
  • TenneeTennee Next Stop: AwesomevilleSilver Member Posts: 5,963
    edited April 2014
    At the moment, that's the thing. I've given her every opportunity to win my trust and she keeps defending herself. If I had to choose right now, we're done. Kind of pisses me off that she might benefit from my MAP improvements -- not the right attitude, I know.

    Meantime, I'm going to re-read everything on your list (because I've read it all once at this point) and make sure I'm taking actions.


    In bold, these are exclusive, not inclusive IMO. Her continued defense of herself has nothing to do with her 'trust' in you. She is the trust violator, not you. She is in no position to frame this argument. Period. Don't let her.

    Anger is not your friend here. I'm not saying don't be angry; I'd be Four Alarm Fucking Furious. Don't let it control you. Fine that steely nerve. Unwavering intense stare. Cool, calculated speech. Make sure you stay in control. I'm talking Mel Gibson in 'When We Were Soldiers' in control.

    I haven't used Dread a lot, but if this were me, I'd vacate for a couple days (don't remember if kids or not). Really, find a couch to crash on. Clearly state 'I have a lot to think about, I'm leaving to do that' and simply go. Part of why I would leave for a bit is that personally, I probably couldn't control the likely coming Mt Vesuvius eruption of rage. I don't think a disappearing act for a night or two is PA. It might, however, give her justification for more bullshit.

    Y'all - Is time away good idea or not?

    ETA: not a move out. An absence of a day or two.
    "Fall down seven times, stand up eight"  Japanese Proverb

    How will you live well today?
    Version3AngelineJesusMarimba[Deleted User]
  • UnpluggedUnplugged Out WestSilver Member Posts: 46
    edited April 2014
    SMan said:
    This may be a critical difference between you and your W that may not be possible to reconcile, @Unplugged

    Certain people are not monogamous, and are either open to, or even want, 'open relationships' or swinging.

    Certain people are monogamous, and if this is truly a fundamental difference between the two of you, trying to stay in a marriage where the two of you meet each others needs may be like trying to mix oil and water.

    Just sayin . . .

    I suppose what's important now is to find out whether this is something structural with her (and IME for certain people it is) or whether she was just hamstering/rationalizing her going outside the marriage to get sex when she had lost attraction to you by 'theorizing' about open relationships.

    Did you get the impression she was talking about it as a way for the both of you to get your sexual needs met? Figuring out where she's at concerning monogamy may be critical.

    Because if she just doesn't want to be monogamous/wants some outside strange/wants the thrill of illicit stuff like prowling for affairs where she might get caught (i.e. if there is anything structural here) then her Hoovering you back in this time won't solve the root issue.

    In fact, if she just has the itch open relationships, she may just figure out how to have better security when she goes for some strange next time . . . unless the interest in open relationships was only theoretical . . .

    _______________________________________________

    Also- whatever you do don't let anger eat at you.  The person you hurt most when you nurse anger is yourself.

    Thanks for that. She keeps saying she only wants to be with me and the twisted logic she's using seems to suggest that having the possibility of an affair would only be ok in an extreme circumstance. I don't think she's wired for polyamory, in fact I think it would destroy her. But that doesn't matter if I can't trust her. I really need to kill that fucking hamster.
  • UnpluggedUnplugged Out WestSilver Member Posts: 46
    edited April 2014
    Thanks everyone, all your comments are very helpful and seem dead on. I keep listening to her hamster like it sounds reasonable, and then the next day I say to myself WTF? And start getting pissed off. Good news is even discussing this causes her a lot of distress so I think deep down she knows what has to happen. But to go there means she'd have to admit to being a different person that who she tells herself she is -- a betrayer.

    Question for y'all: I'm thinking about confronting her and saying: "there is no gray on this, only black and white. If you can't change your attitude, we're done." The alternative would be to keep mapping and save the ultimatum for later. Thoughts?

    (Btw, forgot to mention we're in couples counseling once a week. That's a forum for me to introduce gambits with a different approach.)
  • TenneeTennee Next Stop: AwesomevilleSilver Member Posts: 5,963
    YOU frame this entire thing, not her. She's in no position to do so. You take control here. "Good news is even discussing this causes her a lot of distress so I think deep down she knows what has to happen." This is why I wonder if a healthy dose of Mega Dread isn't in order. You need to re frame this entire thing and operate from the position that You will decide what happens next.
    "Fall down seven times, stand up eight"  Japanese Proverb

    How will you live well today?
    Crashaxe
  • The_DudeThe_Dude Hollywood Star LanesGold Men Posts: 4,583
    Do you have access to her email? Text records, phone records? Go back at least a year and reverse lookup any number you dont recognize.
    Open her email and look at sent and deleted folders at lest a year back.
    Run a credit report.
    Check the browser history as far back as you can.
    Look for apps on her phone like whatsapp that are messaging apps that don't leave records.
    If she's logged into google by default,
    Open googles "web history"
    Templar
  • Version3Version3 Silver Member Posts: 1,906
    edited April 2014
    Unplugged said:
    Question for y'all: I'm thinking about confronting her and saying: "there is no gray on this, only black and white. If you can't change your attitude, we're done." The alternative would be to keep mapping and save the ultimatum for later. Thoughts?

    STFU

    "The pain of discipline is a tiny thing compared to the pain of regret."
     
    It's an obstacle. Get over it.

  • dalefdalef Silver Member Posts: 1,963
    Read the site "Prowling with Kat" about AM. A second date on AM means sex, a first date often does. Five first dates without sex?
    Changed_ManOtter[Deleted User]mixnmatch
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