No More Christian Nice Girl - discussion thread

Maria

Chapter 3.
This is going to be  shorter. ;-)
1. No painful or harmful childhood experiences whatsoever.

2. I think I'm neither a coconut, nor a peach. An apple perhaps? Not overly sensitive to every touch, but not indestructible either.

3. My parents are healthy role models. They built a great family life together without losing their individual identities. Both are active, have meaningful careers and hobbies. have achieved a lot in their lives despite having had to bury the one or the other dream.

4 and 5 . I never heard as much as one discouraging word from my parents. My brothers both chose becoming professional musicians instead of training for a "proper" job and received tons of support and practical help although everybody else shook their head how they could be so irresponsible as to allow them to follow such uncertain a path.

6. Cowardice is not doing what one is convinced would be right because of fear. A gentle spiritcharacterises the way in which you act, not whether you act or not.

7.Everything from ridicule to death - depending on the situation.

8. I need courage to not shy away from conflict, especially if I know that someone I love will likely be angry with me because of it.
And I need courage to stand by my legitimate needs.

9. There are many great role models in my life - some of them here on this forum ;-)

10. I don't think I have any unreasonable fears (okay, I have, if you count my phobia of slugs).
My typical reaction when I'm afraid of something is to take action. I feel much better when I am doing something - as fruitless as it might be.

Maria

@Natalie_Lorin said:

 "Am I doing this for a good reason or a bad one?" That's a merry go round I can ride for hours. Very rarely is the answer obvious to me. Most of the time I'm paralyzed by my inability to decide whether or not I'm being selfish or establishing good boundaries.

Same with me!
No abusive childhood, as I said, but I never trained how to defend my boundaries as they were never violated.
Accordingly it feels strange for me to fight for something - it feels wrong.

Natalie_Lorin

Maria said:

4. My Nice Girl issues stem from avoiding conflict in situations that made me unhappy (when my needs weren't met) and wait for God in his wisdom to step in, answer my prayers, move the heart of those that were the source of my unhappiness and provide what I needed/wanted.
I still find it hard to differentiate between a justified need and a selfish wish sometimes.

Not quite sure what to do with this one, but it really rung a bell for me. As a teenager I sort of "owned" the title of rebellious child in that I threw myself into praying and sincerely trying to not be rebellious or belligerent (like my mom said I was), and I think there was probably a covert contract in there that I would be "good" and God would fix my parents and make things stop hurting. Now, what else I could have done as a teenager I really don't know. When you're in that situation the best thing you really can do is keep your head down and get through it. The time I tried standing up to my mom and enforcing some healthy boundaries she started dragging my stuff into the basement saying it was time for me to leave (fortunately I was a senior in college at the time and had church folks willing to take me in for a few months). I guess maybe it's an attitude of "God I'm being good (read: nice/passive/not making people uncomfortable), so You better fix this" instead of saying "Ok, God, how do You want me to grow and act in this situation."

ETA: As a mom who hopes to raise her kid(s) in a place where boundaries and desires are respected appropriately it's insightful to hear how kids can come out of that unprepared for the "real world." I'll try to remember that one.

Maria

I think there was some kind of magical thinking in place:
If I do everything right then subsequently everything will turn out right. This way of thinking ran through my entire life.

In a religious setting this meant not thinking to know better than God what's best for me. Not for fear of Him punishing me though, but because that might not work out as well. The "right" and most successful path would be to allow oneself being "led", trust in God and be consistent in prayer.

Not necessarily being "good" and have God reward me,  more in a cause - effect way, minus the moral element of having to earn God's approval.
It's complicated  :-S


I can not imagine growing up with abusive parents and I'm impressed and glad by how you came out of it such strong, healthy, sane persons.

Natalie_Lorin

Hmmmm, I think that makes sense? If God wanted you out of some circumstance you'd naturally be out of it, and since you aren't out of it you should just hang back and wait to be "led" out instead of trying to go where God doesn't want you to go? Is that about it?

Maria

Yes.
Of course I always knew one had to strike a balance between making responsible decisions and submitting to God's will.
So I tried to make responsible decisions (doing everything right) - and what happened then surely must be God's will.

Maria

Re "Follow your dreams"

In my (perhaps false) perception that's a totally American thing. Everything is possible if you only want it and are prepared to work hard.

Europeans tend to be more down to earth. Pessimistic you could also say. Our default is "Psh, that's  impossible" and then we either don't try it to begin with or are convinced that we get there only halfway. ;-)

My parent's mindset was a strong "Go for the win but prepare for losing" .  They made it clear to us that our dreams would probably not become true - but if we never tried they'd definitely come to nothing.

And that's why I'm sometimes angry that I sacrificed so many of my dreams, totally unnecessarily so. Only my fault, noone told me to. I chose not following them, because I thought a good mother and wife could not do some of them.

Now I think life's short and we should make the most of it. I don't want to postpone stuff I'd like to do any more. Who knows what happens in a year or ten?

And I want my children to develop dreams and find ways to make them come true without losing contact to reality.

growingafamily

I definitely have the freezing anxiety. I think the only decision I've ever felt completely confident in was marrying my husband.

I'll get caught up tomorrow.. Husband's home from work today. I think chapter 3 was the one I have a thing or two to say about.

Natalie_Lorin

Hope I'm not pressuring people :-S This is just something I really want to try and get a handle on, and y'all are just so darn smart and encouraging

growingafamily

chapter 2:

1. I don't think any of this is really surprising to me. God created differences to compliment each other as partners, because of the different roles each one would play.. isn't that what MMSL is all about

2. I typically want to connect with people who are "like" me, which in my current life situation is mostly other moms. But deeper than that would be other moms who are more conservative, for lack of better word. I'm a member of a really huge local mom group on FB and we've recently spun off a smaller and more intimate group of moms who have similar parenting styles and similar religious values.

3. At school? No big difference. Honestly, except boys were expected to be a bit more athletic when it came to gym. In the classroom, pretty much equal. At home, oh gosh, my mom came from a really sexist home, a "boys can't clear the kitchen table" type of home. It wasn't so bad for us, but there was still a division of boys take out the trash, girls do dishes.. and all the "extras" like cleaning and such typically fell to my sister and I.. partly because my brothers were allowed to roam free and my sister and I were more restricted in what we did, so we were literally home more often when the extra help was needed. At church.. meh. We all sat in the pews and stood, sat, knelt at the same time. There was the whole altar boys v. altar girls thing, but I was ok with not being one. That's more 'political' than an expectation though. Media? I dunno, I guess I'm supposed to be boy obsessed and fashion obsessed? I noticed that everyone on TV back when I was a kid wore "cool" clothes, even if the character wasn't particularly cool. I wasn't like that at all. I hardly identified with any female characters when I was a kid.

4. I guess this is kind of moot. I don't know how other churches work but as a Catholic we just attend. I guess there are  other committees and such, but those are mostly run by ladies and I'm not on any of them.

5. Both? I think sometimes I get along with some men better (as long as they are not talking about sports, lol) but I have always been in situations were making female friends was easier. Overprotective parents (not really allowed to have male friends, or maybe just afraid to find out what attempting to would be like, as far as my mom's reaction--and then going straight from that home to marriage). There are couples we know where I get along better with the wife, and others where I get along better with the husband. Mostly I meet people through mom groups these days, as stated above. 

6. Um, yeah, my ex best friend was a big ball of cattiness. I think through most of my teen years I didn't like girls much. But only hung around them due to aforementioned reasons. Except my brothers, cousins, and their friends. I think I felt more at home with them than some of my friends. 

7. Being catty? Stay away! Experiencing the cattiness of others? uh, tell them to stay away? Feeling Nice Girl pressure? Probably give them a lengthy dissertation of how I ended up how I did, and some pointers on how to avoid it, to whatever degree I am able to do so.

8. I'm not sure about culture as a whole.. I think it varies too much to say there's too much pressure in any one way, at least that I feel is damaging. 

growingafamily

Natalie_Lorin said:

Ok, here's what I really want to talk about in this chapter. They talk about how women and men are different, but then it seems to be a problem when society acts on those differences in having different standards of behavior for men and women. A lot of what they're saying is a problem (looks, status/investment as signaled by clothes and such, being generally nice and agreeable, etc) are a lot of what makes up female attractiveness. We hear over and over that men aren't attracted to women's brains or sense of humor or "insert popular trope" here. If a man says this it's only because he thought she was fuckable in the first place. All things being equal men would prefer a smoking hot girl with a great sense of humor and an amiable disposition. All things NOT being equal men have different tolerances for these things, and all this is part of what makes up SMV/MMV. However their example woman - her husband asked her out because she wrote about Title IX in the school paper? Really? It might have gotten her noticed, but it probably wouldn't have worked very well if she'd be a frumpy slump of a girl.

I agree with what you're saying here but it's still a reality where he had just her in front of him and not a choice between her and a frumpy girl who wrote a similar article. And that he saw the article first, then sought her out. Or something, it doesn't really say. The alternative would be that he knew who she was but never thought much of her until then. There are tons of pretty girls out there, it goes without saying that men want someone attractive but how do you pick which one? I think there was a thread here a couple months ago about whether you and your SO are intellectual equals and I am pretty sure only one person outright said no. So your brainyness, or boldness, or something to that affect, might not put a frumpy girl ahead of a hot one in the game, but it could put one pretty girl above another.

growingafamily

Natalie_Lorin said:

As for how women shame and exclude each other. Yeah it's a problem, and yet it's also an extremely valuable tool. It used to be that "slut shaming" served the rather valuable purpose of making it harder for men to get laid without commitment first. Putting out placed your competition at a disadvantage, and therefore women who "broke the rules" would/could get the boot. Shame can also raise a group's total girl game if a couple of women with good game come into the group and start setting the pace. Admittedly, on the negative side it can discourage women from upping their game (as several FO's and captains have deplored). But my point is that the female social matrix does serve a useful purpose in establishing and maintaining group norms which is completely ignored by the authors. Being assertive and outgoing and involved in leadership can be great, or it can destroy a group. Being argumentative in the right way can make a guy sit up and notice (because some guys just really do like having those sorts of discussions), and being argumentative in the wrong way can make a guy next you on the first date. This is the stuff they don't address, and I feel like (in this chapter at least) they completely overlook the role girl game plays in a women's life.

Ok, baby needs me. I'd be curious what the rest of y'all think about this.

I would have said the originally purpose of "slut-shaming" was to ensure that babies were born into marriage. To keep the crime rate down, as a whole, as is typically the case where intact nuclear families are the norm. Religiously it probably had more to do with expecting people (not just girls) to practice christian/biblical sexual morality, for their own benefit moreso than anyone else's. As to the competition, I doubt I could say anything unbiased about that, since I wouldn't have wanted anything to do with any guy who wanted anything to do with casual sex, so I don't see it as such personally. On a broader scale with less defined morality it might have been.

As to the girl game of the group, I had some thoughts on this but I think the point I thought I was going to make is the exact opposite of the point I would have ended up making so I'll have to hold off on this one.

Katt

I'm not entirely caught up, but on the topic of " mean girls", as @mrs_h‌ mentioned, I had such a terrible experience with a group of girls that I thought were my bestests friends in middle school, that I still have a hard time forming friendships with women, and I avoid groups/cliques of women like the plague. It's a major weak point for me, but spares my life a lot of drama.

Natalie_Lorin

That sucks I hear you about it being simpler though.  I'll admit though that I'd like to know how to get into a group in the first place I feel like I'm always on the edges looking in. I do have a few good friends (got that fact slammed into my head this past week in fact), but I've hardly ever been part of a group.

growingafamily

chapter 3. I dunno, I'm starting to think I should do this after getting that mental clarity I just saw the doctor about straightened out. I'm kind of staring at some of these questions and blinking.

1. I don't know. I'm not sure how "everything happens for a reason." I am. sometimes it's just "sh*t happens".

2. peach, all the way

3. kind of drawing a blank here. I had a cousin who was a year and a half older than me, and I totally wanted to be like her.. until I didn't. Which was when I was about 14, I realized we were going in different directions, so obviously she didn't have that much influence. Otherwise.. my mom? It was a little awkward because there was a lot of ways I didn't want to be like her, but she was definitely my biggest influence. Her mode of representing ideas was giving a crap ton of examples of people and what they did and how it turned out, so it sunk in, you know? 

4. Some of both. My mom had weird ways of trying to "be prepared" (the ol' girl scout motto) which sounded an awful lot like being negative and discouraging. But other times she'd try to encourage us in certain abilities. Looking back, she was probably just encouraged  us to do things she wanted us to and discouraged us from doing things she didn't want us to, enough that it looked like a balance I guess.

5. Yes, oh yes. I was so overprotected. Not completely babied, but my sister and I had far fewer privileges than my brothers. I mean we played outside (probably supervised from the window, but we didn't know if we were) and she wasn't cutting my food or anything, but pointing out the dangers of everything, yes. controlling pretty much everything about jobs, free time, relationships, etc. yes. Not calling excessively when out, at least. But probably only because I was only allowed to do things that were already determined to be 100% free of risks. My kids are pretty young yet, I know I want to be less like this, but there's not much to do at this point. 

6. this is one of the questions giving me a deer in headlights look. I wasn't really raised to know the difference. 

7. No idea, no idea.

8. Making stupid phone calls. Doing anything. Yeah, that's pretty much it there. 

9. I'm not entirely sure what a role model woman would look like, to be honest. 

10. Overreact, completely. Like when my husband started working night shift and I stayed up until 3-5 am every night/morning because I was paranoid to go to sleep. Until we got a dog, then I figured he'd at least alert me to any intruders. It also affected where we bought a house, since I didn't want neighbors able to see the car gone all night, so we bought within walking distance of his workplace. 

11. I've finally come to terms with the fact that while I wasn't abused by my parents, the treatment I received from my oldest brother my entire life was emotionally abusive and carried consequences for a long time. I definitely believed some lies about me.. that nothing I had to say was worthwhile, no one would be capable of actually liking me, etc. Between that and the overprotective parenting from my mom, I sat in a lot and never really tried to make friends. Luckily I came across a handful of others who had no one else, so it's not like I had NO one, but we were kind of "because we're there" friends.

MrsJon

OK Chapter 3

Questions:

1. It's really hard to see the purpose of all the pain and suffering we often see around us. Sometimes I think there is no purpose. People just make foolish choices and/or have bad luck. For myself personally, I would hope personal growth.

2. Peach, I think. I don't think everyone is either coconut or peach though. I think it's a continuum, and we react differently depending on everything else going on in our lives.

3. My paternal Grandmother. She was not an educated woman, but there was not much that she either didn't know or couldn't find out. People always went to her for advice. She also had the gift of painting pictures with words. She brought people and events to life. Even though my Father died when I was very young, I grew up feeling like I knew him, because of my Grandmother. I gained my love of books and learning from her. I also learned about love for family, good manners, patience and interest in other people from watching her interact with others.  I spent most of my childhood Summers with her. I still miss her.

4. I think I heard a lot of both, so sort of in between. I think this gave me a pretty realistic outlook overall.

5. My Mom used overprotective parenting as a tool to control - mainly as we grew older into our teens.  With my own children (although they are young yet), I have a tendency to go in the opposite direction. I base my parenting more after my Grandmother's style.

6. This is a hard one. The only thing I can think of, is strength. You can be gentle, but you must be strong too. I don't think you can be a coward and be strong too. Although, I think everyone is guilty of taking the coward's way out at some time or other. Some things are just harder than others to deal with.

7. I think my MIL is pretty strong and courageous. She has been through cancer and chemo, and I think you have to be strong to get through all that.

8.  Oh, so many areas I am working on, I can't list them all. Everything I am working on is pretty much detailed in my MAP thread, so I won't list it all again here.

9. My MIL is the only person I can think of.

10. The answer depends on what else is going on in my life. Generally, I underreact. However, if there are large or many other stressors, then I will melt down and overreact. Work in progress with this.

Two phrases from the chapter  jumped out at me:

(referring to Christian Nice Girls avoidance)   "Instead of learning how to do conflict well, they avoid it all costs..."

I think doing conflict well is a great goal, but I don't think many of us would say that about ourselves. It's ok to be a work in progress. We can move along the continuum. We just need to take it on, and get better at it.

"Sometimes it just seems easier to tag along with the passive role models who have trudged down a deceptively smooth trail of over-compliance, conflict avoidance and people pleasing"

I think this statement fits right into our MAPs. Athol mentions this in the MAP book, although I can't remember which section, maybe the DHV/DLV?   The part about if you don't know who you are or what you want, you will get pulled into the frame of a more dominant person. Definitely something I am working on.