Easter Day Epiphany, or What Religion Has to Do with Intimacy Anorexia

Hamster_FreeHamster_Free presentSilver Member Posts: 1,160
Reference Thread: http://marriedmansexlife.vanillaforums.com/discussion/2414/what-does-an-fo-do-when-the-capt-is-seeking-his-course/p1

So way back in the days of early marriage, my husband's strong religious upbringing came into play when my first baby was incubating.  He had always been a devout (though rarely attending) Christian.  I have spent most of my life as an atheistic leaning agnostic.  When the first baby was becoming more and more evident, it became very important that we have a christening for the child.  To date, I'm not sure how much of this was my mother-in-law speaking through my husband, but it became imperative.  Part of the christening ceremony is that parents promise to raise their children in the teachings of Christ and the Christian church.  I told him that as a wandering agnostic, I had no problem supporting him in carrying on his traditions, but that as they were his traditions, he would be most responsible for imparting them to his children.  

This frustrated my husband, and he said it would look funny to all in attendance if the baby's mother did not take part in the christening.  I said that I *would* take part, I would hold my baby, physically and symbolically supporting my child and his efforts to raise her up in the traditions he cherished, but that my own conscience would not allow me to make a promise to raise a child in a tradition which I did not wholeheartedly follow.  Much grumbling, but we met with the Chaplain, explained the situation, and he worked the ceremony to just that--I held my daughter as my husband and his mother made the vows to raise her into the Church.  

Fast Forward two years, baby #2.  Same thing, different place.  This time it was in my mother-in-law's church, so the pressure was on twice as much to join in with the vowing.  I still declined (and was met with more grumbling and pressure).  In pre-meeting with my mother-in-law's pastor, I explained my level of comfort of participation in the whole event, and he complimented me on my integrity, and held a beautiful service that I was proud to be part of, and which didn't leave too many blue-haired church ladies tsk-tsking.

In weekly church life, it became important to DH to find the 'right' church.  While there was one of every denomination in town, the 'right' church--a very pretty one-- was (at the time) about 30 min drive away, meaning that we were frequently arriving late.  After a while, we became comfortable enough that I could get myself and two babies ready in the time it took him to shower, and we were out waiting for him enough that we started making it on time.  Before long, that stopped being 'the right church', and he sought out other traditions.  The pretty church remained the default church, but DH continued searching.  

Fast Forward two more years to his mother's terminal illness.  We moved to be nearer to her to be present during her decline.  We were still in a different state, but at least in the same time zone.  Since we had just moved, the quest for the perfect church began anew.  We checked out a few--I checked out more, since he worked every other Sunday.  I found one that I was comfortable with--small, local to the neighborhood, and very welcoming.  It also spent a good portion of the service delving into the meaning of the chosen texts, which really helped me understand and start to appreciate the message, even if I didn't buy into it at a faith level.  He found one that he liked, one of his mother's traditions, which involved a lot more recitation and pre scripted affirmation of belief without exploring the word itself.  I told him I liked the other one better, and again, wasn't keen on a place that made me recite promises to God that I did not believe in.

He pitched a bit of a fit, saying that I didn't like his church and he didn't like mine, and stopped going to church at all.  But by this time, his kids were enrolled in a Christian school, at his behest (see Reference Post linked above), which meant that the kids were now being taught all day about good Christian values like honoring Mom and Dad and going to church every Sunday.  So, as mentioned in the thread, he gave it all up and went Wicca.  He said he'd still teach the kids Christian stuff, but that he was turning away from Religion per se.  Believe me, as a spiritual meanderer, I get it.  You have to question it all, right?  Right.


Comments

  • Hamster_FreeHamster_Free presentSilver Member Posts: 1,160
    So I've let the beast sleep pretty much since then.  He's read up on Wicca and lights a little frankincense once in a very great while on the shrine he set up, but doesn't do much with it.  

    I've stopped taking the kids to church..we were gone a lot last fall, and just got out of the habit--but the kids still like to go to church, and often ask.  Lots of times, they ask after the service starts, making it too late to go today, just like last week.  Today, they asked to go (OK, ulterior motives of church egg hunts might have lent a little extra urgency, but that's where they were).  I told him that we were going, and asked him to join.  He nah-ed and said, "Why today?  You all haven't gone to church in months."  I pointed out that it's Easter Sunday...one of the two days that most Christians tend to make even if they don't make any others.  "Nah.  You go to a church I don't like."  I pointed out that it was a different church, that I didn't want to go back to the small, everyone knows everyone church after such a long time away given that we're moving soon.  I also pointed out that taking his family to church on Easter is something his mother would have liked, and invoked his promise to raise his kids Christian, and asked him to just come today for his mother (who passed away in April about two years ago).

    So he did.

    And he was *NOT* happy all the way through it.  We arrived late, my skirt (knee length) was too short for his taste, and I could (((feel))) the bristles sitting next to me.  We came, sat for the service, and were among the first people out the door and away.

    So what does all this have to do with intimacy anorexia, you ask?
  • Hamster_FreeHamster_Free presentSilver Member Posts: 1,160
    Religion is the Wall.  It is the defense.  It's (one thing) that has been used to maintain distance.  When he was devout, it was my heathen ways that kept us apart, despite his insistence.  As I opened my ears and my heart to follow the path he designated, he kept looking for different paths, making it harder for me to follow, and then it became 'my fault' that we did not go to the church he wanted.  As his kids got more and more interested in it, he turned away from it entirely and into Wicca.  I helped him set up the shrine.  He hasn't really done much with it since.

    I didn't challenge him on the Wicca, but I did ask what he intended as far as the kids went, what he wanted to teach them.  He said he would still teach them Christian theory, and would sprinkle in a little pagan lore along the way.  OK, fair enough.  Except now it's pretty much me teaching anything about theology.

    My conclusion:  Religion for DH is one big fat fitness test.  

    Insights?  Comments?  Commiseration? Disagreement?  


    Serenity
  • KatherineKellyKatherineKelly SeattleSilver Member Posts: 1,432
    edited April 2014

    Your words always leave me with the impression that your husband does not know how to be happy "In a relationship"

    He appears to act like someone fearful of emotional engulfment "by a woman" so looks for ways to push you away while not being able to let you go.

    If is mother has a dominant personality who never respected him as an individual but only as an extension of her own needs it would explain alot.

    Do you ever feel like the  blame and anger is the expression of a rebellious little boy angry at mother ?.

    It seems like he relates to you as an authority figure that he is being suffocated by, but also must obey.

    You are placed in the position of trying to "placate him" like a soothing mother.

    I hope my words have not been hurtful but I worry for you because you can never please someone like this and the more you try the more irrational, irratic and demanding  they become.

    The problem may have nothing to do with you and everything to do with his mother and if it is he will do everything to deny it and place the blame on you.

     

     

     Believe those who are seeking the truth.  Doubt those who find it.  ~Andre Gide

     "If you love someone, set him free; if you have to stalk him, he probably wasn't yours in the first place."

    [Deleted User]Hamster_Free
  • KheldarKheldar IndianaSilver Member Posts: 1,565
    I'm probably projecting in inaccurate ways here, but my guess (and believe me, it's a tentative one) would be that it's not about you. He doesn't believe, but at some level, he's a little kid whose family won't love him if he doesn't believe. So, even if he doesn't believe in what they taught him, he has to pick a faith - any faith. His visceral beliefs don't square with what he tells himself he believes. So, he keeps wandering. And because his faith lacks integrity, he keeps wandering. 

    Your identity isn't so wrapped up in your faith, so you can move from church to church more easily -- appreciating the good and shrugging off the bad or indifferent. If he stops believing, in some sense, he'll kill his mom for good. (Maybe that's a bit too Freudian).
    TimitzHamster_Free[Deleted User]Maria
  • Hamster_FreeHamster_Free presentSilver Member Posts: 1,160
    Yep, I see a lot of angst about his mother.  It's becoming more wistfully painful now that she's passed, but there was a lot of damage done to that little boy, and his mother was 'the good one'.

    I think at a level he's comforted by mentally framing me as the mother figure that he feels he should be responsible to--and therefore rebel against.  It, again, adds a layer of separation.  If he's rebelling against me, it's impossible to let me in to dangerous intimacy.

    Nothing hurtful said.  As with all the other crap that happened to him as a kid, it's not my fault.  Just in the process of teasing out the knots.
  • MongrelMongrel Pennsylvania, USASilver Member Posts: 1,869
    So what really is the religious obligation now?  His mother is dead, so no one has to appease her anymore. He has dismissed his Christian faith, so your H doesn't have to be catered to. You're an agnostic, for the most part. So who is this religion stuff for?

    Your kids.  If they like going to church, and like the Christian message, then I feel you should support them in that and take them (probably more frequently).  I didn't see their ages mentioned in this thread. That may help. 

    I'm a very adamant believer that each individual should find their own way with regards to faith or lack thereof.  Simply following what someone's parents did is 'blind faith'.  If individuals don't do their own due diligence and ask questions, how can they possibly know what is right for them?  In spite of the two of you sending mixed messages as parents, your children seem to have connected with Christianity, so I'd support them continuing to go as long as they want. If they ask why either of you don't join them, you tell them.  They will then have to decide what to do with that information.

    Disclaimer:  I'm an atheist, married to a Christian and the offspring of Christians.

    That said, I think trying to appease your H's less-than-devout religion of the year is a waste of time.  If he wants to be a Wiccan, yay for him.  Just ignore it.  It sounds to me like you're giving him power which he uses against you.  If you can detach from discussing it/arguing about it, it will lose it's power. The religion thing is just a tool for him to try to control things, as noted by previous responses. 
    "If you're not happy with your life, you've got to identify why, and do something about it." -- Mandrill
    "Treating her like a princess didn't make me a prince, it made me a servant."
    Link to triage questions:  http://marriedmansexlife.com/triage-your-relationship-and-the-911-er-category/


    [Deleted User]Hamster_FreeJoanna
  • RebornReborn LondonGold Men Posts: 2,987
    edited April 2014
    @Hamster_free my thoughts were in many ways similar to @KatherineKelly s. Personally I am atheistic. And I'm not familiar in detail with all your threads though I've had a quick look.  

    One might say that your H's relationship to God (real or not) follows the same pattern as she describes for his relationship to you: "he relates to you as an authority figure that he is being suffocated by, but also must obey." ... and avoid getting too close to. The "swinging" thing that you mentioned at one point seems like another way of creating distance / avoiding closeness. 

    Your post sheds a lot of light, for me, on leadership. His picky insistence that the church has to be "just right", and must be attended, followed by throwing it all over in a sort of tantrum and going Wicca, does not inspire anyone to follow. 

    What I am less clear about is what you want. 
    Enneagram type 5 w6. 
    If I offer lots of advice, it's probably really me giving advice to myself. That always seems to happen. 
    Hamster_Free
  • FormerNiceGuyFormerNiceGuy Silver Member Posts: 133
    Christian here, although from a let "say a lot of creeds" tradition.

    First, sorry for how the faith has been used in your life by your husband and his family.  It must hurt when you try and support someone who seems not to get that it's what you're trying to do.

    I don't think he knows what he believes and is either looking for past comfort (a church like mom's) or mythical perfection (this one's not quite right) or to rebel (maybe I'm a Wiccan, not a Christian).

    Don't know what to say.  I'm just sorry you can't go to church as a family (like the kids seem to want) and you can learn some of the interesting historical facts (even if you don't quite believe the interpretation of them).

    I know you don't believe in any of it, so hear this as "positive thoughts" or "empathy" if you want, but I'll be praying for you.  I know someone who can help, whether you think He's real or not ;).
    Hamster_Free
  • Hamster_FreeHamster_Free presentSilver Member Posts: 1,160
    edited April 2014
    Thanks for all the insights, everyone.

    For my purposes, in my own spiritual quest, I've reached the point where I feel that God is real..*I* simply am not capable of producing two perfect human beings without some sort of divine help.  I think I mentioned once before that religion is merely a human attempt to understand something which defies definition.  There might be some moments of clarity and tenets of accuracy, but I don't think human kind is capable of capturing, exploring the limits of, and labeling GOD as most religions attempt to do.

    For my kids, Christianity has been an incredibly helpful parenting tool.  It's a handy rule book reference that I can point to and say, "See?  You should/shouldn't do that.  Not only is it the kinder thing to do, God says so."  For the atheists out there rolling there eyes--hey, at least I'm not telling them the Bogeyman's going to eat them if they misbehave.  

    I have felt a bit guilty about not taking them more often, just because they have requested it.  I'm a big believer of entertaining ALL points of view before ruling any out, and so without a specific compass of my own in that regard, I can definitely follow their curiosity.

    But yeah, needless to say, DH no longer gets to call the shots on religion for the rest of us, and I think he's pretty much given up trying.  I wouldn't normally have goaded him into going like I did this morning--I was essentially taking the opportunity to call him out on all the bullshit.

    In a very real sense, I'm pretty glad he told me he wants to separate.  I don't have to appease, and I'm much more free to just be myself.  One of my favorite parts of church has always been the hymns, so today, while he was quietly seething, I was singing my merry lil heart out, whereas in the past, I would have toned down in deference to his mood.  It's like I'm free to breathe again.

    ETA: Kids are 5 and 7.
  • TimitzTimitz Silver Member Posts: 820
    It sounds like you've come to peace with things. I'll echo the sentiments that it sounds like he never really owned his faith and was just going through the motions.

    As a philosopher I would tell you to not let you and your children's quest for truth be derailed by emotional terrorism. The questions of God and morality are the deepest and most enduring, as well as the most worthy of answering. As an aside anyone who scoffs at you telling the kids no because God says so forgets that there are many secular rules that are followed "because the King says so" as it were. Speed limits are a great example of rules that are followed soley based on appeal to authority for many people. Likewise, 5 year olds simply aren't capable of following the Kantian moral imparative, though children do seem to grasp the principles of morality and ethics better than adults. With that said as social creatures teaching obedience to authority is a critical skill for children to learn because they don't know about certain dangers, and no one starts off as a leader. Indeed the best leaders are those who learn to obey first. In teaching that, "Because X said so" is perfectly valid. I'd just be, cautious about speaking for God on specifics versus don't steal because God said so.

    I think you are on the right course and should plow on ahead.
    "You must be like water which always seeks the easiest and best path around obstacles." Sun Tzu
    Katt[Deleted User]Hamster_Free
  • SerenitySerenity Senior Moderator** Posts: 11,358
    @Hamster_Free   Your husband set you up for failure regarding religion in the same way he did with refusing to move the boxes.  

    It sounds like your relationship has been one huge fitness test and each time you've tried to appease him, it's been a DLV in his mind.

    I think you're going to get a lot out of the vampire/victim sections in the new MAP book. 
    Athol_Kay[Deleted User][Deleted User]
  • Hamster_FreeHamster_Free presentSilver Member Posts: 1,160
    Thanks, Timitz...those are very healing words.  I will definitely take them to heart.  Serenity, you're SO right.  I read through the Vampire chapter...yes.  Yes, yes, yes.  While I'm mourning the loss of the happy times, the thought of freedom without having to try to live up to impossible, ever-changing standards is like the scent of fresh air in a coal mine.  I'm not out of the dirt yet, but I do feel the air stirring--and I like it.
    Serenityjon
  • PhoenixDownPhoenixDown TejasGold Women Posts: 10,632

    How are you doing, @Hamster_Free?

    MariaMaterStellie
  • Hamster_FreeHamster_Free presentSilver Member Posts: 1,160

    How are you doing, @Hamster_Free?

    Just realized I never hit post on this one - last year.  Hats off to the wee scribes in the computer for holding on to this one, waiting for the day I might actually hit the button.  Original post follows:


    Hi--wow!  Thanks for thinking of me!  I'm really well, thanks.

    We've moved and separated.  We've got a much more functional standard of communication, especially now that both of us are established in our own places. Needs of the kids are put first onboth sides and we live near enough to consistently keep that priority.

    He apologized for the hotwifing stuff and has acknowledged the role of abuse in our marital dysfunction and is in counseling.  

    i'm proud of him for the strides he's made, and I hope to maintain a relationship amicable enough to be able to support him through the process as an understanding (non-spousal) friend.

    We haven't filed for divorce yet due to state residency requirements, but I have high hopes that we can file a settled agreement when the time comes.

    He has a new lady friend who'll be moving in with him at the end of the month (no fault state, so I won't hear any flak about infidelity at this point--that ship is well and truly sailed)...I have an excellent prospective Captain that I have my eye on, though I have asked him to allow me to process myself out of this relationship first, and he's been very understanding.

    In the meantime, I'm really enjoying being single, and loving that I get to really focus on being my kids' very present mom for just over half the week every week.

    :)


  • Hamster_FreeHamster_Free presentSilver Member Posts: 1,160
    Now for the update -

    More functional communication??  Hahahaha.  That was SO last year, when he was taking all the help he could get from me.

    Once he had his feet under him and the new girl moved in, that was it.  She's it, me n the kids were yesterday's news.

    He took the kids in full time when I was looking for a home and a job, but never related to them - only disciplined them, just like he always had, only now without the Mama buffer around to soften the blow - so they shorted out.  Lots of behavior issues at school.

    I got a place and a job, and took em back half time.  The first night they stayed with me, snuggled in a puppy pile on my bed in a studio apartment, my wee 5 yo boy heaved a sigh with his whole body and said, "Mama, I thought I'd never be with you again".  And then drifted off into a very still sleep.  I cried.  A lot.

    My daughter and I have since cried together many times over the family existence that is no more.

    She took it the hardest of the two; she's older, and VERY emotionally intelligent.  There's a lot that does not fit the narrative for her, I can tell.  I follow all the rules and don't talk down her dad, but where my boy's behavior issues leveled out a bit over time, she continued to have fits and bouts, and is now in therapy at her teacher's recommendation.

    Between me and their dad, communication alternated between -let's keep the tone as it's always been- to -utter vitriol. 

    And then divorce papers were filed.

    Friendliness at this point has completely melted away.  We communicate on businesslike terms only.  When we first moved to the neighborhood, it wasn't unusual to see both of us at the same party, and even both of us +girlfriend, all calmly chatting together.  Not so much these days.  We live less than a block from each other, but might as well live in different states for how often we see each other outside of custody exchanges. 

    Every communication is evaluated on both sides for political advantage, so *nothing* other than straight logistical facts is exchanged.  If they know I will be somewhere, they change plans.  Personally, I think it's childish behavior, and would have no problem (and have invited both repeatedly) to meet in person and clear the air a bit, or even put on a polite public face for a common goal.  Notsomuch. 

    Things haven't really been the same between me n them --and particularly the girlfriend--since I pointed out that he and she became FB friends three days before he informed me of his intention to split and 'date when we moved to where we were going'.  (oddly enough, we're not FB friends anymore).

    So here's the scorecard as I work on my financial declaration for divorce:

    He: 
    Split and established residence with the "FB friend" a month and a half after the split.  (*side note* - all of you who posted in my "He Gave me the ILYBINILWY" thread that he was probably doing a remote EA - well....there's your sign.  Y'all catch on quick.)
    Got a PT job in a tasting room at a winery ($11 an hour), at which he works on average 4 shifts a month.  No shifts at ALL this summer so he can 'be with the kids' (read - Disneyland Dad).
    Goes to school to earn his degree in viticulture, because he can do that on a military pension and the GI bill without working.
    Says he deserves 50/50 custody, even though much of the time that they'd be home, he's in class, meaning his gf would watch the kids, not him.  Repeatedly declines to take them at times that he would be available, and/or which would help me out.

    I:
    Got a slightly higher wage job working office administrative for a non-prof--not much, but keeps us dry and fed.
    Got a studio apartment
    Upgraded to a 2BR rental house 5 months later
    Abandoned all dating efforts and focused on caring for my kids (because the dating wasn't working out, what with me keeping my kids' needs first and all).
    Joined a band.  :)  A band that rehearses at my house, so I don't have to abandon my kids to have fun.  :)  :)

  • codename_duchesscodename_duchess AustraliaSilver Member Posts: 222
    Don't want to be a necromancer but this thread has just resurfaced and felt that I should comment on this.
    For my kids, Christianity has been an incredibly helpful parenting tool.  It's a handy rule book reference that I can point to and say, "See?  You should/shouldn't do that.  Not only is it the kinder thing to do, God says so."  For the atheists out there rolling there eyes--hey, at least I'm not telling them the Bogeyman's going to eat them if they misbehave. 
    I think that this isn't helpful. Argument from authority (because X said so) is a bad argument since when X is proved fallible, the argument fails. Just like kids who do something "because Mum says so" and then finds out that Mum is only human.
    Understanding why we do something takes a little longer ( I know, I've been guilty of "because I say so" when I'm tired or short of time) but when they understand the reasons (it hurts someone else) then they're less likely to ignore it and can use the same logic in other situations.
    JellyBean
  • John3John3 SeattleSilver Member Posts: 1,396
    @Hamster_Free, sounds like he's doing about normal for the divorced dad script, you are doing much better...which is good to hear.  Time does tend to improve things. 
    The woods are lovely, dark and deep.
    But I have promises to keep,
    And miles to go before I sleep,
    And miles to go before I sleep.
  • Hamster_FreeHamster_Free presentSilver Member Posts: 1,160
    @codename_duchess, definitely, once they're old enough to reason, the why's can be filled in, and they have been as age appropriateness allows.  The good thing is that there are a lot of good guidelines for just being decent to each other in Christianity that hold up well under the why scrutiny once you reach that point.  I'm not going to debate theology in this thread - there're plenty others that do that.  What I'm saying is it has been helpful in my circumstance, and the kids embrace it pretty well.  I'm all in favor of them doing the work when they're ready for the big universal questions and finding their own faiths.
  • Hamster_FreeHamster_Free presentSilver Member Posts: 1,160
    Thanks, @John3:)
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