Himcules' Triage - Determined to Improve

Himcules

I've first heard about MMSL a couple years ago and have gradually been working on improving my marriage, but it often seems to be a three steps forward, two steps back affair with plenty of highs and lows. I'm hoping that by finally posting a triage I can get some feedback and continue to make progress.

We met in college and were friends for about two years before we stated dating and got married when we were both 26. We'd both dated others but neither of us had had a serious relationship and we were each other's first sexual partners beyond making out. I was a typical beta white knight but wasn't an orbiter - I never had any designs on her until a couple months before we started dating. Sex was pretty good for the first few months but started tapering due at least in part to my clingy beta ways. If only I could go back and smack myself. The non-sexual aspects of our relationship were fantastic though, and we got married.

For a while I had pretty bad lack of OI, before I even knew it was a thing. Begging, pleading, all the embarrassing stuff I'm sure you folks are familiar with. l still cringe thinking about it.

We've been married about 10 years now and have four kids 6-2. As in the past, the non-sexual part of our relationship is pretty damn solid. We go through the same bumps everyone does but we have great trust and are loving and physically and emotionally affectionate outside the bedroom. Cuddling in bed is great.

Sex, when it's there and good, is great even outside of ovulation sex. Since starting my pseudo MAP, frequency has gone from maybe 4x per month to probably double that with some clustering around ovulation and zero action during her period. In bed, I tend to be dominant but she'll sometimes prefer certain positions or resist me performing oral on her even though she clearly loves it when I do (as long as she's in the mood). She's never been big on giving BJs sadly but it happens once in a while. She's pretty open in terms of positions, but is otherwise reserved. It's usually up to me to bring the excitement and variety. I've been thinking about introducing a vibrator or some couples friendly porn but I'm not sure how that will go over.

Starfish sex is rare and I'll usually call her out on it, but part of the reason it's rare is because I'll back off my I initiation if I sense that's where things are headed. It makes me feel likes shit and it's even worse than getting straight up denied. Bottom line, she still generally controls the sexual part of our relationship despite my efforts.

Question responses to follow.

Himcules

1. Medical

I can't rule this out as I have no test results or quantitative evidence in either direction.  It's possible that she is suffering from some mild depression but that wouldn't completely explain our years-long situation.

She's never been thin and she does have body image issues after four kids. Could she lose a few pounds? Sure, but she's still damn attractive to me and if her demeanor about it were better I'd be fine if she stayed just how she is.

2. Structural

Nothing I can think of. Physically, I'm probably an 8+. Above average height, good looking, awesome physique.  I have a respectable, if not prestigious, job with a a solid salary. I'm respected at work and generally carry myself well in social situations. Overall I'm a 7 or 8.

She's a SAHM. Some extra pounds but she wears it well. In my eyes she's a 7 but without wife goggles maybe a 6?

I used to masterbate to porn several times per week but I decided to give up both without much fanfare about 8 months ago. I still relapse on both rarely, but almost never at the same time.  We've never discussed porn or masterbation much and she doesn't know any details about my once-time habit. I know she'd be fine with the masterbation and probably "it's ok but I don't understand it and don't want to know about it" with the porn.  While I feel like I have a lot more sexual energy to give my wife now, it's hard to last as long if I haven't ejaculated in a week or more. I'm sometimes ready to blow as soon as we get going. I also start to go out of my mind after several days just wanting that release.

I've made tremendous strides in terms of OI and run a pretty tight game on that front. I just wish I didn't have opportunities to do so so often as it still hurts sometimes but I've become a lot better about not showing it.

3. Neglect

Again, nothing really comes to mind.  I had to travel internationally a bunch for work last year and I know it was tough on her with the kids but that travel is not typical.

4. Other Sources

99.999% sure I'm the only one.

5. When did the sex go bad?

Probably just a few months into when we were dating.  I fear this means that we're just fundamentally misaligned in terms of sex drive and this is close to as good as it gets.

6. The beginning

Sex was new and exciting since we were both virgins. It was great - variety, passion, frequency.  When we got married it was barely a blip on the radar in terms of our sexual dynamics.  There was some hot stuff on the honeymoon but even that wasn't really the sexfest most people seem to have.  Pretty soon after getting home it was business as usual.

7. Elephant

Her parents are divorced, my are platonically married and have probably been sexless for decades and are probably only together from inertia.  They're roommates who are frequently cordial and sometimes eiTher friendly or crabby. I have a terrible fear of ending up like them.  I/we have no role models of what a successful marriage as parents looks like.

8. Leader

A few years ago I would have deluded myself and said me, though it wouldn't have been true. However, even at my worst sexual beta low point, we've always been fairly equitable on the rest of the marriage.

Now, I'd say me but not without occasional power struggles. I've really alphaed up and she's made a conscious effort to defer to me and accept me as the leader but it's not easy with her upbringing.  Like I said before, I have to reluctantly admit at she's still usually in control of the sex.

Himcules

9. Good times

Most times. I love and am in love this woman, my best friend and teammate. Even though she clams up a lot and it takes effort for her to open up and talk, she seems genuinely willing to always work to improve our relationship. When it really comes down to it I feel a little stuck. I don't want to have an affair, I don't want to have a sexless marriage, and I certainly don't want to leave my wife and children. What I want is to continue to improve my marriage and not have to throw the (wonderful) baby out with the (sexy) bath water.

Edge

So, to clarify.  You're saying you have four kids aged 2-6, a very nice, functional relationship with your wife, and have sex about eight times a month with rare "starfish" sex.  To most people, that sounds like an ideal marriage. 

Let me guess -- despite all that, you're still unsatisfied with the quality of the sex.  You want her to be more "into it" and more adventurous?  It makes you feel unwanted when her views on sex don't equal yours?  

Off the top of my head, I'd say you suffer from what a lot of us do here --- porn-induced marital sex dissatisfaction syndrome.  We've watched thousands upon thousands of young women have wild sex, all while we masturbate and get an endorphin rush.  Yet, when we look at our ONE WOMAN who is not at all like the videos, we naturally think, "Geez.  What is wrong with this woman?"

I'd say, overall, you have it about as good as it gets.  Sure, you can improve things some, but I think most of your transformation is going to need to happen in your own head versus her behavior, if you know what I mean. 

If I'm misinterpreting the problem, let me know.  In your mind, exactly what IS the problem you have?   

Himcules

Ha, well when you put it that way...

Seriously, I realize that I have it way better than a lot of people here and I'm thankful for that. It's taken a lot of work. I actually went back and looked over some stuff I'd recorded in my journal a while back and I think the 4x then, 8x per month now estimates are high. Call it 2-3 then, 4-6 now with occasionally higher amounts. Rose colored glasses I guess. I don't really keep even a mental log but that's my best estimate.

The main "problem" is that I'd like to be able to initiate without getting rejected so often. I'd like to be able to take advantage of opportunities for quickies when the kids aren't around instead of the routine of only at bedtime when we're both tired. I want to feel like she really wants me and isn't just responding to my advances at best and tolerating me at worst. There are sporadic times when all that does happen and it's incredible. Is it so unreasonable to want it to happen more often?

Maybe you're right. Maybe this is as good as it gets and I need to moderate my expectations.

Edge

I'm not trying to discourage your efforts to improve.  I'm sure it's possible, so don't let my pessimism slow you down!  How often are you initiating per week on average?  How do you initiate (e.g. verbally? through sexual touch?) and how does she actually "reject" you (e.g. verbally -- "can we do this tomorrow?" or through body language or through common tricks e.g. going to bed super early, pretending to be sick, etc...)

Kathrynthegreat

Please remember Outside Sources doesn't mean "Do you think your wife is having an affair? " It's about where either one if you gets that dopamine. Porn, strip club with buddies, erotic novels, that cute coworker you look forward to seeing a little too much. .

Himcules

Thanks for the replies.

@Edge, I initiate probably 5 times per week, either verbally, by dominant physical touch (throw her down on the bed), or by sexual or sensual touch once we're in bed. Rejection is usually by calms of fatigue, "just not feeling it, I'm sorry", or some variation of "let's do it tomorrow", at which point we're back to square one. Occasionally it will be by body language like extreme tension or her legs bolted together before I even start progressing things physically.

She says that she wants to feel differently but doesn't know how.

@NotHeisenberg, she knows how the rejection feels intellectually, since in the past I've tried to explain it, but I doubt she really knows how much it can hurt since so far as know I've never denied her like that. My OI is pretty solid after years of being terrible. I don't think I've actually gotten worked up about rejection in at least a year. 

@Kathryn, excellent point. Like I said, I almost entirely gave up porn and almost all masterbation about 8 or 9 months ago. I don't enjoy strip clubs and in fact actively avoid them.  I'll notice an attractive woman the same as any guy but there's no one that I regularly look forward to seeing in that way. i.e. I don't have anything even remotely resembling an EA.  When things aren't going so well in the bedroom for several days, I definitely still feel a temptation to resort to porn and masterbation but I can almost always resist.  When I fail, I feel doubly shitty for giving in and for failing at getting the real thing.

So far as I know it's pretty much the same with her. I don't think she's ever watched porn, she claims to not masterbate (very rare exceptions), and doesn't read romance novels or anything. Often, but not always, it seems like she just has  a near zero or repressed sex drive.

For what it's worth, I'll regularly have women in public flirt with me, even before MAP but more so now, and I've faced Athol's "test" a few times and passed. I won't lie that the female attention feels good (dopamine), but it's very frustrating to pull all sorts of attraction from other women without trying while sometimes feeling sexually unappreciated at home. 

_io

I see two areas that need immediate work. Leadership and stoking her responsive desire. You are falling down on the job (and they are both your job) in these areas.

Who is in charge of what in your marriage? How do you handle finances? Vacations? Date nights? Chores? Child care and discipline?

What do you do throughout the day to keep her mind on sexual matters? Touch, sexy texting?

Himcules

Hi, @_io. I've made great strides in becoming the legitimate leader of my family. I control the finances, vacations, date nights, and most food and cooking. I have the final say on big family decisions but I'm fine deferring to her for smaller things if she has a strong opinion and I don't. We share the household chores probably 35/65 me/her since she's at home. I take care of stereotypical man stuff like home repair, the cars, grass, etc and she does most of the laundry and cleaning but I help out when I'm able. She has the kids during the day (oldest daughter us in school now, next oldest in 3 day a week preschool) and is thus the primary disciplinarian at that time, then it's shared when I'm home. I'm less of a pushover when it comes to discipline and the kids respond accordingly.

I send naughty texts, have flirtatious phone calls, and regularly do drive-bys when I'm home. She usually responds accordingly but then when it's time for the rubber to meet the road it's often full stop.

I fully expect that any improvement will come from me. That's what started me on this journey and I accept near full responsibility for the state of our relationship.

Edge

@Himcules  It's possible for you to still do everything right / perfectly and have the same results (again, not trying to be Debbie Downer).  Your wife sounds nearly identical to mine, but has been quoted as saying, "No woman can be expected to have sex twice in one week!!"  You might read through my two discussions regarding things that have helped me deal with it (note: partly, I've just given up my previous goals -- problem solved).   :-c

OneEyedDrunk

Keep mapping to increase the attraction. Use the strategies outlined in the primer to stoke her responsive desire. Do not get mad when she gives you a hard no. Be cool like Fonzie, smile, and do something else. Be cocky when she turns you down. It's highly likely you can turn it around when you are funny/cocky.

Also, change it up man. Quit wearing the dad jeans. Think of a movie star that she finds attractive. Me? I've got the three day growth going, have spiked hair, and dress well. I love dressing great while my wife puts on her frumpy sweats.

My wife was in the hospital the other day. I came back from work, and changed to go visit her. I got in my nice jeans and a button up shirt. Spiked hair, axe body spray, looking good. She told me I was hot. That's how you do it man. Dress better than she does.

Himcules

@Edge, I took a look at your posts. Thanks. I have to admit that sometimes things do seem better when I back off. Maybe I just need to adjust my expectations.

One problem is that, like you, quality sex is incredibly import to me on much more than just a physical level and I also tend to view our relationship through the lens of recent sexual interactions. I recognize that it's not helping me and I need to figure out how to control it and just become less emotionally invested in that way.

@OneEyedDrunk, I'm pretty well put together I'm the OI and appearance fronts. I regularly get compliments from my wife and others but that doesn't seem to translate I into nookie.

Edge

@Himcules  (Hey, I just "got" your name -- not HERcules, but HIMcules).  

Well, I think it's a dilemma (or  "tension," if you will) that alot of us face.  On one hand, if we become so obsessed with sex-with-our-wives relative to quality and quantity, it sets us up for negative feelings and other forms of suffering when (invariably) it doesn't always work out as we want.  On the other hand, if we just throw in the towel and stop caring (as if!), then the sex may just get worse and the marriage suffer.  

Yes, it sucks.  Multiple people over time have had to swallow that bitter pill, e.g. "You mean to tell me that I've got to approach near personal perfection and 'game' my wife over and over and over forever just to have a regular, fulfilling sex life?", or some variant of this.  

I'm trying to find a happy medium, of course.  I have definitely erred on the side of obsession for many, many years to the point that each sexual encounter felt like a well-earned victory.  At times, I'd get angry because that just doesn't seem to be what marital sex should be like.  And, I suppose, it isn't, but that's what so many men these days face due to the propensity of contemporary wives to say "No" and hold you to it.  Remember, the sexual revolution gave women the power to say yes to promiscuity before marriage, no to their husbands after marriage.  

Still, keep in mind that you're on the high end of frequency for a married man (esp. with 4 little kids at home!).  You still have a lifetime ahead of you.  (That bit of wisdom probably doesn't help any, but hey...).  

OneEyedDrunk

Himcules said:

@Edge, I took a look at your posts. Thanks. I have to admit that sometimes things do seem better when I back off. Maybe I just need to adjust my expectations.

One problem is that, like you, quality sex is incredibly import to me on much more than just a physical level and I also tend to view our relationship through the lens of recent sexual interactions. I recognize that it's not helping me and I need to figure out how to control it and just become less emotionally invested in that way.

@OneEyedDrunk, I'm pretty well put together I'm the OI and appearance fronts. I regularly get compliments from my wife and others but that doesn't seem to translate I into nookie.

It takes time. Also, there's a great post on push/pull by on here. It's where you pull back from normal, and she pushes closer. It's interesting and works great by the way.

Himcules

No idea how I really did it, but I got a BJTC this weekend for the first time in years - on Mother's Day of all things!  I'd been making it clear throughout the day that I was pretty horny and later, when the kids were all playing outside I initiated and it worked!  To top it off, she'd just started her period which has always been a no-fly zone for any sort of sexual activity.

Her mom is coming in from out of town this week so that will certainly put a damper on things, but days like yesterday definitely give me hope.

Himcules

What's the best approach for an FO grudgingly giving in to initiation after initially rejecting you? Last week, I pushed to a hard no and remained fairly (though not perfectly) OI. About 30 min later my FO said something along the lines of "well I guess if you really need to." I really wasn't in the mood for strictly obligatory starfish sex at that point and I said that it's ok and we can just go to sleep. Wrong play?