Post-partum issues

odie6423

Hey everyone, just want to throw something against the wall and see what sticks.  We have 3 kids (6, 4 & 4 months) and wife is not interested in intimacy since the birth.  She's actually been averse to sex since the pregnancy began (before that really, lol).  We got intimate one time at the 5-6 month point (basically begging on my part - before I read the primer, knew the Alpha/Beta dynamic, DLV's, etc.) and it was a disaster.  She obviously didn't want it to happen, and we stopped mid-session.  Since this event, I've really started to read and try to understand what is going on with my wife, and me.  Through reading the primer, posts on this site and other forums I've come to realize how draining pregnancy and nursing can be on a woman, and how to approach her in general, so I have scaled back my approaches for sex.  However, also through all this reading and research, it seems that even other low-drive women agree to sex here and there.  My wife and I haven't had sex (aside from said disaster) in over a year.  And before that it was 1-3 times a month.  I've been admittedly more Beta than Alpha in the past and have recently changed my approach (more Alpha, OI, MAPping), but am not seeing any results.  I'm fit, make good money (she is a stay-at-home Mom), help out around the house, etc.  Reading all this material has been very eye-opening and encouraging, but I can't help but get down about the near future.  In our most recent discussion on her low desire, she said "check back with me in a year".  It was a light-hearted joke of a response, but it rings with truth.  I've been denied constantly, and showcase OI, but I'm perplexed here.  It's really hard to press on how much of an issue our sex life is when she can pull the nursing/baby card any time.  That being said, I don't think I can wait months/years to get this thing going again.  But if I don't be patient and allow for the "real" excuses to go away, I'm an a**hole.  Giving an ultimatum at this time or anytime soon does not seem like an acceptable approach.  I feel stuck.  Anyone have this situation or advice? 

frillyfun

The nursing/baby thing isn't a card.  As hard as it is- try not to take it personally.  When you're a Mom your "to do" list is nearly endless.  You have 3 little children who are dependent on you for their entire survival, and a husband who's big, and strong and can fend for himself.  Her resources are going to go to the children because you're self sufficient.

It's not fun, it's obviously hurting you- but her brain is in "protect the babies" mode.  Sex is the last thing on her radar.

It starts with showing her that you being a strong couple is what's best for the entire family.  Marriages don't come with pause buttons, and building a strong one is important.

Put some emphasis on couple time, cuddling, touching, connecting, date nights (even if you can't leave the house you can still do something special together).  Make it a priority.

And if it's at all possible help her get some sleep- Sunday morning is Mom sleep in day.  Sleep helps everything.  If you can make some time for her to get out of Mommy mode that's a big thing too.  Even a trip to the grocery store by herself will feel like a luxury.

pu1pj1tt3rs

I am interested in following this discussion.

@odie6432 - I can't imagine how tough that may be. There seems to be a large range of how pregnancy and nursing effects women's sexual drive. My experience informs me of one way, but there are plenty of others that share your story. Plenty more women on here that can speak to their experiences as well. You'll probably get some good advice on here. What I can say is that I don't think you can go wrong by mapping and continuing to be a great guy/husband/father. Hopefully her sexual receptiveness will recover sooner rather than later. Hang in there!

odie6423

@pu1pj1tt3rs @frillyfun ;  Thanks for you advice.  It helps to get some feedback from others, even if it means to wait it out!

Katt

I had little sex drive when pregnant and  zero when I was nursing.  My husband and I had sex roughly once a week during that period but I was very much "take it or leave it" (he felt differently LOL).  Do you think your wife is attracted to you but just exhausted and hormonally depleted from mommy hood or that there is an attraction issue as well?   

I would suggest you work on increasing your attractiveness (have you posted a triage?).    Also make sure your wife gets a decent amount of rest, a little time for herself here and there, and make time as a couple, even if it is at home "date nights" since you have several young children and may not have babysitting regularly available.  

frillyfun

Don't just wait it out....be awesome, sexy, and flirty even if it doesn't lead anywhere. 

 It's so easy to feel unsexy when you have spitup in your hair and leaky boobs.  Give her a reason and the opportunity to get spiffed up on occasion.

Carebear

I am nursing a five month old. So, I'll try to give a little insight here. First, she's tired. She's mom and everyone needs her for 'something' all the time. She's nursing. So she's touched out. She's likely got body issues. As a SAHM, I'm betting she hasn't had a great adult conversation in a while, either.   She also knows you want sex, which adds pressure. 

The fixes for these. As long as she's still waking at night, let her get extra sleep. I go down early, before 8. While I'm not sleeping, this gives me time to nurse and then just chill with nobody needing me. My husband takes care of getting our other three to bed.  Nursing makes you DRY (me anyway). No better libido killer than not getting the physical turned on. This is my biggest Hangup. I think my husband must be thinking I'm not attracted because I'm not wet. It's totally not the case. I'm thinking too much and it's just the way my body is right now. Don't keep trying and trying to get her wet.  It adds pressure to perform. Give her a bit of emotional connection, cuddling and foreplay and descreetly get the lube.  I can't help with body issues. We all have them and we all cope differently.  Let her unload about her boring day. Likely she feels it's too boring and you wouldn't care. Encourage her to tell you about her day. It's the only thing we SAHMs have to talk about. This is great beta ;-).  Don't make anything a covert contract. I, personally, hate that. A date night will likely exhaust me and the baby will probably be fussy after either tagging along or being looked after by others. Just cuddle and let us sleep. The day after, cuddle with and talk about how fun it was and you might get lucky. Finally, after a looong dry spell, it just feels awkward. Like we know we should've been having sex and then just do much time went by and now it's just weird. So be all cool with how she feels guilty for not engaging. Once you get over the hump, it'll get better. Also, birth control?  Is there any? 

Hope this helps a little. 

odie6423

@Katt @carebear @frillyfun ; I'm pretty sure she isn't unattracted to me, if that makes sense.  No Birth Control either (does that affect sex drive that much?) But she's never been that sexual to begin with.  When we were dating she would hardly ever deny, and she was much more sensual with me - touching, flirty, etc.  But soon after we got married it gradually dropped off.  I've brought this up and she has admitted that she was "courting" me at the time.  This is what I miss the most, just her being affectionate with me.  I don't think I'm that much different now from then (same or better build, looks, amount of hair, more income)  It's a catch 22 now - she admits she's reluctant to be affectionate with me as she thinks I'll think she is initiating impending sex, but since she hardly shows affection I can't help but think that most of the time.  So the result is her not showing affection as much anymore.  She's conceded that she needs to get over this and make an effort, but with the kids at their age now it's all so complicated, and our relationship is clearly on the back burner.  I guess I just expected her to be attracted enough to SOMETIMES want to have sex, no matter the situation.  Surely I can't fully understand her mental state with baby, hormones, etc., but I could never leave my partner in the condition she is leaving me.  I'm sucking it up for now (and have been), but I'm growing more bitter over time and am becoming less interested in putting the effort in.  It's not like I go to work, come home and do nothing.  I work a stressful job (which I never bring home, she doesn't ask anyway) come home and help with kids, dinner, laundry, housework, etc. until 10pm, every day.  I think the real problem is that neither of us fully know what the other is going through.  The difference is that I try to understand what she is going through, and help as best I can.  I know what people will say, just stick it out and try to make date night, help her, etc.  But she needs to help herself too.  And part of that is helping me and our relationship.  Oh well, I'll just keep at it and hope for the best.  It's clearly not going to change any time soon.  Thanks for the help.

Katt

I suspect attraction is a bigger issue than you realize for your marriage.  It isn't all about looks.   As @ANewHope‌ said, if you haven't read the primer, you should and start applying the info.  She can love you to pieces and like hanging out with you but not be sexually attracted.   They are separate things.   

I would not suggest that date nights and helping more and waiting it out are the answers.   Helping and date nights are great, but if you aren't providing enough good alpha, they won't help you get laid.

odie6423

@anewhope I share your issue with OI, I think this is my biggest flaw and hurdle to overcome.  I can't help but get bitter about it!  I mean seriously, I haven't even tried to get in her pants for months we're both busting our ass with the newborn, other kids, work, etc. - kids are in bed early for once on a Saturday night, it's just her and I talking and having a beer, and you reject sex?!!!  Are you f***ing kidding me? 

Here's a question:  when it comes to OI, let's say we're talking (just the 2 of us) I playfully entertain sex, and she rejects.  Obviously I can't get bummed, pissed, etc. but is it better to just carry on with what we were doing, or to go do something else?  It seems like a double edged sword in some ways.  She rejects and we carry on.  isn't that rewarding her?  Does she not think, "OK, it's not a big deal anymore, I can reject without flack now"?  But if I say, "well I'm going to do X, you can join if you like" is that not basically altering my plans because I got rejected?  It seems like either way is a win for her and loss for me.  The only thing I gain is her possibly seeing that the rejection doesn't bother me.  OI seems to be most effective in fly-by mode, am I wrong?

@Katt thanks for the insight, it seems OI and steady attempts at sex are my best option (at the right times of course)

@thewolf The comic makes sense, quite a lot of SIS in our lives at the moment.

So I guess the outcome here is Alpha, MAP, OI, and patience.

odie6423

oh yeah, and I'll fill out the triage when possible

odie6423

@anewhope noob here..... where is the triage at?

Angeline

link in my sig below

Angeline

@ANewHope‌ signatures don't show on mobile.

Carebear

ANewHope said:

@carebear - I don't disagree that that is how you feel, but that won't get men laid. Believe me, I changed a lot of diapers, rubbed a lot of backs, let my wife sleep in every Sat and Sun, took over meals beta beta beta and that doesn't make her attracted or horny, at all. Prolactin is the death of marriage. 

You're correct.  Beta, beta, beta won't get you laid.  But a balance might.  I can only give insight based on MY experience.  Disclaimer:  I've never had an attraction issue with my husband and have never given a no.  I'm always happy to partake in a little fun.  The reason I'm here on mmsl (in case you're wondering) is to up my game and attitude because my husband had a brief EA because he was BORED with the same sex 5x a week. 

I think you're doing too much beta.  I honestly can't figure how a woman can say she loves her husband yet denies him the very element that he feels love by.  Blows my mind.

I don't know what to tell you.  If my husband sat me down and calmly with little emotion and lots of fact, told me that he needs sex to feel loved and to feel love towards me, that would probably work.  Of course, we are hardcore Christians and the Lord tells us not to deny one another, and for good reason.  But, I'm not sure that would help you.  

As far as prolactin being the death of marriage.  I suppose if she's using it as a get out of sex free card, then yes.  In my opinion, it's an excuse.  If she WANTED to have sex, she would. She might not have sex floating on her radar, but if you remind her by initiating and she thinks to herself, "oh, that sounds nice"; she would have sex.  You are initiating and she just doesn't want to.  That was the case before she was pregnant and nursing, so, I'm thinking there's a reason.  You've got to find out what it is. 

I'm trying to walk the line here as this is an EXPLOSIVE issue, and I don't want to get banned. But what insight do you have when you know, that however exhausted you are, and you think you're doing the right thing taking care of the kids, that you're killing your marriage?  

Forgive me if I forgot, but have you just told her that sex is important to you?  Again, for me, that would work 90% of the time.  But for your wife, she might think you're being a selfish dick. 

The motto here is STFU. Prolactin means 0 interest on her part. No sex means he will eventually hate your existence and resent your babies, offset by his rational brain.  What is he to do?

@frillyfun‌ - you say you were touched out. My wife said the same. Does that mean no drivebys etc? How are you sexy flirty without adding pressure? Honestly looking for input / hope. 

I know you directed this at frillyfun, but I feel touched out at times as well.  I just told him that I feel touched out.  That he's welcome to still grope, but that while I won't groan, I'm also not going to reciprocate or like it AT THAT MOMENT.  I'm not always touched out, but sometimes, like during a growth spurt when nursing is non-stop, I am.  I let him get his feelskies without feeling bad about it myself, because I already warned him.  And he holds no malice either because he knows what to expect.  In your case, maybe say something like this to your wife: 

"I know you don't want me to touch you because you probably feel touched out, but you feel so good to me, I just want to.  If all I want to do is grope your boobs while your washing dishes, would you get offended?  No sex, just want a feel em a little."

Your wife is likely to look at you like you grew two heads, but at least you'll get an answer.  If you were my husband, you'd do it anyway.  Just for a second then move on.  That way she learns that you were serious about it not leading to sex.  No covert contracts. But get her used to you feeling her up again.

@katt is spot on. MAP up. Get awesome. Lead. Be light and funny. Get her some sleep. Keep initiating. Actions not words. At some point, jokingly, say "you think this male specimen ( pointing in a circular motion to yourself) can go much longer?  Look at you (start to molest her).

And back rubs and taking all the responsibility from her isn't the answer, at least not the complete answer. 

Katt

@Carebear‌ I agree with a lot of what you said, but I will note that many (most?) women don't realize that their husbands feel love through sex, so they don't realize they are denying what he needs to feel love.  Like you, attraction to my H hasn't ever been an issue for me and prior to the baby years (and now since we're out of them) we always had plenty of sex, but I never thought of it as equating to an expression of love in my husband's eyes.  I always thought of if as mainly a physical drive for men.  I know better now, but I was more than a decade in to my marriage before I had that realization.

Carebear

odie6423 said:

@Katt @carebear @frillyfun ; I'm pretty sure she isn't unattracted to me, if that makes sense.  No Birth Control either (does that affect sex drive that much?)

Some bc really does affect things.  The depo shot almost got me divorced.  It was AWFUL for sex drive.

 But she's never been that sexual to begin with.  When we were dating she would hardly ever deny, and she was much more sensual with me - touching, flirty, etc.  But soon after we got married it gradually dropped off.  I've brought this up and she has admitted that she was "courting" me at the time. I understand this.  She's caught you now, no need to do all these things to attract your attention.   

This is what I miss the most, just her being affectionate with me.  I don't think I'm that much different now from then (same or better build, looks, amount of hair, more income)  It's a catch 22 now - she admits she's reluctant to be affectionate with me as she thinks I'll think she is initiating impending sex, but since she hardly shows affection I can't help but think that most of the time.  So the result is her not showing affection as much anymore.  Well ONE of you has to be the one to break the cycle.  I'd like to see it be her.  Just because men are better at keeping their word and not making excuses (hamstering) If you break the cycle by proving that you won't initiate sex so she'll be affectionate, she might think of another excuse to not be affectionate.  But you could try it for a while. Never know if it'll work unless you try. 

 She's conceded that she needs to get over this and make an effort, but with the kids at their age now it's all so complicated, and our relationship is clearly on the back burner.  BS.  Complicated is her excuse (unless your baby is a very difficult one.  A six year old is perfect age to dangle a toy and sing or talk to baby, bonus if it's a girl.  Six and four are old enough to be mom's buddies and helpers doing chores, fetching things, playing by themselves and with the baby safely strapped in a bouncy or swing.  

I guess I just expected her to be attracted enough to SOMETIMES want to have sex, no matter the situation. Two words: Responsive desire.  If she didn't initiate before, she surely won't now.  She 'should' respond to you though.  If not, then there's a reason, even if it's all in her head (as in weight issues or what about the baby thoughts)

 Surely I can't fully understand her mental state with baby, hormones, etc., but I could never leave my partner in the condition she is leaving me.  True and she needs to realize that love sometimes is a sacrifice.  If she'd suck it up and have sex with her husband, she might remember how nice it is.

I'm sucking it up for now (and have been), but I'm growing more bitter over time and am becoming less interested in putting the effort in.  It's not like I go to work, come home and do nothing.  I work a stressful job (which I never bring home, she doesn't ask anyway) come home and help with kids, dinner, laundry, housework, etc. until 10pm, every day. Again, if she's a SAHM with those little helpers, she needs to be doing dinner and laundry and housework.  Do you have a crock pot?  Dig that sucker out!  It's a mom-with-tiny-baby's best friend.  Her problem is a lack of planning and so she probably is very tired and depressed.  It's depressing to be home all day and not get anything done.  Help her plan a routine, not a schedule.  Be more of a sounding board and not so much of 'you should do this'.  Give advice in a way that she knows you're not trying to tell her what to do.  

  I think the real problem is that neither of us fully know what the other is going through.  The difference is that I try to understand what she is going through, and help as best I can. Two books I can recommend, but if you give them to her I doubt she would read. (get a trusted girlfriend or older woman role model to give it to her) "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus"  If you are Christian "Created to be His Helpmeet"  Both are short, easy reads that have a bit of an entertainment value but are really self help books.  They both give the wife 'understanding' of the husband mind/body needs.

 I know what people will say, just stick it out and try to make date night, help her, etc.  But she needs to help herself too.  And part of that is helping me and our relationship. Totally agree

 Oh well, I'll just keep at it and hope for the best.  It's clearly not going to change any time soon.  Thanks for the help.  If you don't DO something, then nothing will get DONE to change things.  It's not on her radar (yet) but it's on yours.  So if at first you don't succeed, try, try again.  

Katt

On the birth control issue, hormonal BC can hurt some women's drives.   But the flip side since you say she isn't on BC: have you had a vasectomy or are you preventing pregnancy in any way when you do have sex?   Because if she's afraid she might get pregnant again that might be an obstacle to her wanting sex.    I was irrationally terrified of getting pregnant again when I was nursing both times and if there isn't a reliable method of prevention going on, it might be a scary thought for her. 

odie6423

@katt I'm religious about pulling out, so I don't think she's afraid of that.

Katt

My husband was religious about pulling out and I was SCARED SHITLESS of pregnancy.  No method is totally effective, and pull out is one of the least reliable, largely due to the capacity for human error.  

BrianC

@odie6423‌ childbirth and nursing are big issues.  Nursing can pretty much meet all of a woman's pleasure needs chemcically and leave you out in the cold for the first couple of years of an infant's life, depending on the particular phyisiology of the woman.  Ultimately you need three things going for her at once to make it work during this time:

• High attraction.
• Her getting out of mommy mode.
• Her understanding that you have options.

Getting her out of Mommy mode does indeed require a heavy dose of Beta and picking up the slack, but it has to be the right Beta.  Instead of just doing what needs to be done, be the man with the plan: make lists, give assignments, etc. Ask her for meal plans so you can pick up groceries.  Divide chores on a publicly visible list.  Enforce things like bedtimes.  Make her take time out for hobbies ad self-care.  This is the time for bossy Beta.  If you know her love language, make sure to hit it once a week.  Don't tell her what you did, tell her what to do, and what you are going to do.

The first and last are a matter of MAPping obviously.  If she doesn't think you have options, she is not going to spend much thought to the state of the marriage.  be sure to take your wardrobe up a notch.  Work out.  Talk about your job.  Get a babysitter and take her out somewhere exciting and active.  If you have done as most fathers, and been pushing hard at career advancement, show it.

Also, get out for something other than work.  join a gym of club where you can spend at least an hour or two a week.  Plan take-out for those nights to help justify it.  You need to have a life outside of marriage and baby.  Make that work in such a way that she doesn't feel hung out to dry, though:  maybe go to the gym two evenings a week once the little ones are in bed.

It helps to know what specific Alpha buttons to push and push them hard.  What is your wife attracted to?  Do you know?