It took a long time but I think I'm starting to get it

Vaysh

When I would talk to people or read up on dating, I would almost always toss away the "be feminine" advice.  I've always been a pretty masculine person in thinking and behavior patterns, and it wasn't "me".  I should lie about myself to get a boyfriend?  Lying is wrong, this advice is wrong, this advice would lead to a miserable relationship.

Yet here I am.  35, single, and with no prospects.  Clearly what I've been doing hasn't been working, so I needed to try something new.  After reading several blogs and forums (including MMSL) I finally decided to conduct an experiment.  I went to a favorite market over the 4th of July weekend and I did nothing different except for two things: 1. I wore the tiniest bit of makeup and 2. I wore my hair down

My clothing didn't change, and my behavior didn't change, but my interactions with people I had seen many times before changed.  My service was faster, friendlier, and I was freely offered extra assistance that I usually had to request.  I was blown away and realized...be "feminine" isn't "be someone you aren't" as much as it's "emphasize and draw attention to your natural assets, especially in regards to how they set you apart from the opposite sex."

That probably shouldn't have been a revelation but, to me, it really was.  The minute I got home, I bought the MAP book, and I've now finally joined the forums.  Here's to seeing what the future brings!

Serenity

Hi and welcome. 

Each of us has both masculine and feminine components in our personality. 

We all know that the way our brain is wired affects our actions, but what many don't understand is that our behaviors also change the wiring in our brains.

It's a concept called neuroplasticity and it means that the behaviors and thoughts you engage in most frequently are the ones that create and reinforce neural pathways in your brain.

The more often you act feminine, the more your brain will actually create pathways that cause you to act feminine. Do anything long enough and it becomes second nature. 

It's not so much a matter of 'fake it to make it' as it is 'act it to become it'.

SignorePillolaRossa

welcome

there is so much vagueness behind generalized adjectives that it is difficult to tease out the actual reality of what you mean when you say "I've always been a pretty masculine person in thinking and behavior patterns" ... one can interpret that in many ways from 'admirable and advantageous' on one hand to 'actively self-defeating' on the other

If you intend only to wear your hair down and a little make-up, it might be hard to translate a single experience of some better customer service into a meaningful relationship or even more than a single date ... but if you are going to internalize adding feminine aspects to your thinking and behavior, then you might get somewhere ... (note: i didn't write 'subtracting' masculine, only adding 'feminine')

it might be interesting and useful for you to reflect on and describe what you mean by your masculine thinking and behavior that you do not want to get rid of and also what you mean by feminine thinking and behavior that you seem to not want to do much of besides makeup and hairstyle ... if you care to share your thoughts on these matters here, i am sure you can get some valuable feedback / critique to consider adding to your development

it is my opinion that men, especially men attuned to the world view put forth by Athol and promoted on this forum, will be looking for women with feminine energy ... sure, appearance will be the first impression so hair and makeup are definitely something to include ... but a feminine looking woman who turns out to have too much masculine energy and not enough feminine energy will, more often than not, be looked at as a suboptimal relationship partner 

best of luck

Vaysh

Thanks for the replies, Serenity and Signore!  I realize now that I have one hell of a long road ahead of me.

When I think of a feminine person, I think of someone who is dainty, into frilly clothes, spends lots of time "putting on their face", easily overwhelmed/upset, pastels, Hello Kitty, fixated on appearances, submissive.  Most of what I equate with femininity I consider to be rather superficial and also annoying.  Meanwhile, when I think of masculine things, I think of comfortable clothes, physically activity, okay with dirt and sweat, assertive, rational, calm, problem solving.  Girls want to talk about things and men want to do things.  Passive China doll vs self-sufficient person.  

(As an example, there's a guy in the gym who aspires to be a cage fighter one day. He's small, jumps every time someone throws a half-speed punch anywhere near his face, and tends to curl up in a ball rather than fight back.  With the traits he's shown, I consider him both incredibly frustrating and also exceptionally feminine.)

I do have softness for the people I care about.  Cuddling is great, feeding people is automatic, and I'll bend over backwards to help some people out.  That being said, showing affection through shit talk, harassment, and occasional, good-hearted scuffles makes complete and utter sense to me, and tends to be my default.  

Reading back through the above...exposure to more examples of what it means to be feminine is probably what I need more than anything else at this point.  My notions are pretty one dimensional and (I hope) inaccurate, but without any other reference point, they're all I have to go on.

Vaysh

Thanks, Leticia!  Do you have any recommendations for places to look for examples of badasses who are also feminine?  

Angeline

http://jezebel.com/first-woman-to-complete-the-american-ninja-warrior-cour-1605907801

http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2013/04/wwii-files-audrey-hepburn-and-the-dutch-resistance/

http://www.whitehousehistory.org/whha_classroom/classroom_documents-1812.html

zeroday

is it necessary to be a "bad ass".  I think the point here is that conventional wisdom has produced sup par results.  without taking away from your inherent and learned talents, successes, and overall "badassness" you have unsuccessfully navigated the SMP and are being forced to change tactics or miss a window.  I would certainly buy the primer.  

Men want to feel needed.  If you are too self sufficient and "needless" men will not feel important being with you.  And when they try to they will come off as needy and unattractvie.

Men are attracted to specific things.. this would be feminine things.

Many men on this site were sold that pragmatism and egalitarian relationships would result in relationship bliss, and the sex they signed up for.   Clearly this is not the case.

Remember that our personalities are FLUID to some degree.  You aren't "lying" or not yourself when you try different things...you are just experimenting.  

Going back to "badass"  I'm pretty sure that if you are more bad ass than your man that does not bode well.  Read Athols Blog.  He's got some great stuff in how a woman can make a man feel important just by celebrating when he does something capable.  And why not...I love the sound of a womans laugh.

Scarlet

Agree with the others.  You're creating a false dichotomy.  Honestly I'm a bit confused where you're getting these ideas.  I truly don't know anyone like the following "someone who is dainty, into frilly clothes, spends lots of time "putting on their face", easily overwhelmed/upset, pastels, Hello Kitty, fixated on appearances, submissive."

What is your friendship group like?  How about your coworkers?  Are you clinging to these odd ideas and ignoring the reality around you? 

Maria

Scarlet said:

 I truly don't know anyone like the following "someone who is dainty, into frilly clothes, spends lots of time "putting on their face", easily overwhelmed/upset, pastels, Hello Kitty, fixated on appearances, submissive."

You don't know Paris Hilton?  

Seriously  now:

Scarlet said:

Agree with the others.  You're creating a false dichotomy.  Honestly I'm a bit confused where you're getting these ideas.

This.

Angeline

Neediness is different than allowing someone to feel successful and strong and powerful. Why not grant someone the pleasure of being admired?

Scarlet

And needing others does not mean one is incompetent.  I do some crazy stuff at work, but I still need my coworkers. 

zeroday

How is it coming so easily right now?  Oh wait it's not.    The point here is you may be capable of picking something heavy up and carrying up a ladder but let your man do it and feel good about wing a man.    Artificial ins emendation and the aluminum stepladder do not replace us. 

zeroday

That's not me being a dick,   This is me saying that you arguing with an observable reality is not going I help you.  Don't argue...adjust...adapt and thrive

Raspberry_rose

Mae West:

Audrey Hepburn. Beatrice from "Much Ado About Nothing." Eleanor of Aquitaine.  Queen Elizabeth I of England. Abigail Adams. Jackie Kennedy. Eliza Doolittle from "My Fair Lady." Katherine Hepburn. Marie Curie. Ninon of France.  The Japanese stereotype of a Yamato Nadeshiko (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/YamatoNadeshiko), or Silk Hiding Steel (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SilkHidingSteel). Colette. Coco Chanel.

Why do you think a feminine person is such a fluffball?

Vaysh said:

When I think of a feminine person, I think of someone who is dainty, into frilly clothes, spends lots of time "putting on their face", easily overwhelmed/upset, pastels, Hello Kitty, fixated on appearances, submissive.  Most of what I equate with femininity I consider to be rather superficial and also annoying.  Meanwhile, when I think of masculine things, I think of comfortable clothes, physically activity, okay with dirt and sweat, assertive, rational, calm, problem solving.  Girls want to talk about things and men want to do things.  Passive China doll vs self-sufficient person.  

Reading back through the above...exposure to more examples of what it means to be feminine is probably what I need more than anything else at this point.  My notions are pretty one dimensional and (I hope) inaccurate, but without any other reference point, they're all I have to go on.

Vaysh

Thanks for the additional feedback!  I apologize ahead of time for the huge wall of text.

Scarlet said:

What is your friendship group like?  How about your coworkers?   Are you clinging to these odd ideas and ignoring the reality around you? 

The majority of my friends are male (not at all surprising, no doubt!),and most are nerdy to various degrees.  I have a few female friends, but only three I would consider feminine.  I work at a university and half of the professors are decent and the other half I honestly wonder how they survived to adulthood.  There are very few women in the department.  I only have one coworker, and she is about the same age as my mother.  She's pleasant enough and we do our best to help one another out, but we don't have much in common.  

Most of my time is either at work or at the gym.  There are a few females in the gym and most of them are fighters.  If I'm not training or working, I'm at home cooking, cleaning, and gaming.  I don't have any friends that I go out with, as the only friends I have in my area are guys from the gym, and any time we get together we want to train.

I have a friend I consider to be a natural alpha male, and I trust and respect his opinions.  I asked him what I could do to be more feminine and attract men.  He said "wear a sundress and have your hair down."  Any time I've asked anyone I know about being more feminine, that is the response I receive time and time again - wear dresses and put your hair down.  The last guy I dated was from the gym.  He became interested after he saw me at a fight.  I'd come straight from my cousin's wedding so...I was dressed up, hair down, makeup on.  Lots of unusual attention that night from guys who've known me for years, hugs, repeated unsolicited compliments, red faces, and (in one case) actually stammering when trying to talk to me.  With that in mind, you can probably see why I started to think that physical appearance must be where I was going wrong.  Clearly I have a lot more to figure out, though.  

Angeline said:

Neediness is different than allowing someone to feel successful and strong and powerful. Why not grant someone the pleasure of being admired?

zeroday said:

How is it coming so easily right now?  Oh wait it's not.    The point here is you may be capable of picking something heavy up and carrying up a ladder but let your man do it and feel good about wing a man.    Artificial ins emendation and the aluminum stepladder do not replace us. 

These are absolutely valid points.  In a relationship, I do everything I can to make sure the guy knows he's valued and awesome.  Sometimes I'll do super basic things, like ask him to open a jar for me and then verbally appreciate how easily he could do it.  I try to set him up for basic leadership options, such as asking where he'd like to eat, or what he'd like for me to cook so that he has an opportunity to make a decision, can lead us somewhere, and I happily go with his choice.  I try to do random things for them, like bake cookies or surprise them with tickets to a hockey game (admittedly, that one benefits me, too, but, still).  Other times I just hold their face or hand and tell them I'm happy and lucky to have them.  I figure if I dig someone, they should know it, and I want them to feel good about themselves when they're with me.

mrs_h said:

Most of the women (I actually know) I aspire to be like I would describe as ladies. They are feminine, confident (in themselves and their husbands), smart, know how to carry themselves and speak well. They are respected by those around them, even people who don't like them. No one walks all over them. A few of them are even overweight and wear less than stylish clothes (by my standards). But the way they act demands respect (and not because their badassery makes people fear them. I find the tough girrrrl schtick in movies superficial). And you know people would respect them no matter what they did--housewife, engineer, artist, biochemist, pet sitter.  

I'm not fond of the current trend of "women can do anything as well as a man or better" in entertainment media, either.  There are things I'll never be able to do as well as a man can, and that's simply fact.   

I've heard from lots of people (women especially) that I'm intimidating, and I ask them what I'm doing to make them feel that way, but I never hear specifics.  Instead it's mostly just "I was so afraid to talk to you but after you talked to me I realized you're nice and not scary."  I need to figure out what I'm doing that's making me come off this way.  I don't want anyone to be afraid of me, that's not my goal at all.  I just want to have fun and for people around me to be happy.

Raspberry_rose said:

Mae West

Oh man, Mae West is awesome!  I don't think of her as particularly feminine, though; just a radical broad who wears fancy clothes.  I would be 100% down with being a radical broad who wears fancy clothes.

Scarlet

Part of the intimidation problem may be how you view women.  If you think feminine women are useless, that's going to come out somehow whether you want it to or not.  Contemplate if you have some arrogance behind that viewpoint. 

growingafamily

I'm typically a jeans and t-shirts type myself but for summer I almost always wear skirts out. Just grab a couple jean skirts for starters and wear them with whatever tops you normally wear. Baby steps, no need for a total overhaul at once.

Tiberius

you sound like that movie cliche where the 'homely' girl slaps on some makeup and puts on a dress *poof* it's a fairy-tale princess.

hell if I got that kind of (positive) reaction I'd slap on a dress at the market.

Raspberry_rose

Mae West is feminine. She's just a very different kind of feminine than you're used to typing as feminine.

For more examples: see the hetaira of ancient Greece, the geisha of Old Japan, the Italian Renaissance courtesans, the preciuses of Louis XIV's court in France.

I'd still like to know why you think femininity means a wishy-washy pastel creampuff?

dalef

When  you came to a fight with your hair down, makeup on, and dressed up, the guys who has seen you as friend at the gym, saw you as WOMAN. Take that to heart.

Vaysh

dalef said:

When  you came to a fight with your hair down, makeup on, and dressed up, the guys who has seen you as friend at the gym, saw you as WOMAN. Take that to heart.

I did, I definitely did.  But I'm hearing that there's a lot more to it than the physical.  That's what I need to figure out more than anything else. 

Raspberry_rose said:

Mae West is feminine. She's just a very different kind of feminine than you're used to typing as feminine.

For more examples: see the hetaira of ancient Greece, the geisha of Old Japan, the Italian Renaissance courtesans, the preciuses of Louis XIV's court in France.

I'd still like to know why you think femininity means a wishy-washy pastel creampuff?

I dig geisha.  They are some seriously hardcore artists.  I'll check up on the others mentioned.  The more examples of feminine that I have, the better able I'll be to find the common traits between them all and figure out how to bring that out more in myself.  I really appreciate this

I wish I could tell you why that's my impression of femininity.  If I had that figured out, though, I probably wouldn't be in my current position!

Tiberius said:

you sound like that movie cliche where the 'homely' girl slaps on some makeup and puts on a dress *poof* it's a fairy-tale princess.

hell if I got that kind of (positive) reaction I'd slap on a dress at the market.

I look completely different depending on what I do with my hair.  I was counted as absent in high school once, despite sitting in my assigned chair, just because my hair was down and not up.   (I wore hair down and minimal makeup again over the weekend.  A girl I've known for a few years didn't recognize me and I had to pull my hair back and tell her who I was.)

Scarlet said:

Part of the intimidation problem may be how you view women.  If you think feminine women are useless, that's going to come out somehow whether you want it to or not.  Contemplate if you have some arrogance behind that viewpoint. 

This had never occurred to me before, but I think you're spot on.  No doubt, this is an issue present in interactions with everyone.  Why would anyone want to talk to someone who thinks they're beneath them?  Ugh.  I think I'm going to try and work more of the teaching personality into daily interactions from here on out.  When I teach, I go into it with the thought of "they probably won't get this, but that's okay.  As long as they try, I should be able to help them make progress."   People always go into and leave a class I teach with a grin on their face, so I have to be doing something right there.

growingafamily said:

I'm typically a jeans and t-shirts type myself but for summer I almost always wear skirts out. Just grab a couple jean skirts for starters and wear them with whatever tops you normally wear. Baby steps, no need for a total overhaul at once.

Duly noted! (I actually don't even own any skirts or dresses that aren't costume pieces I made!  My baby steps may be closer to gestation phases.)