The subject of BJs with W

maxx138maxx138 San AntonioMember Posts: 170

So this has been,or had been, a point of contention between us. When we were first together she used to give them spontaneously of course, usually when we showered together before she left for work. However once we moved in together and then got married they very infrequently and then not at all. 

She told me when we were dating that she would "ruin men for other women with her BJs". So of course I thought she was really into them.  After some non-alpha asking for them early on I got upset and asked what the problem was. She said that first of all she did a lot of stuff with me early on to keep me around and once she knew I wasn't leaving she didn't feel like she had to do it anymore. She also said that she doesn't like them because it's a non reciprocal sex act. 

I have conveyed to her over the couple years we have been together how much I enjoy them. She says "just ask for them then". I said I do but you always turn me down or give an excuse. I asked a couple more times after that with the same results so I just stopped all together

No celebration of Steak & BJ  day this year, which she told me we would always celebrate. And definitely no offers although she said if I want one to just give her a sign like push her head down to that area and she'll do it. Again with no favorable result

So I'm kinda at a loss on how to broach the subject again with her. I obviously really enjoy them, I know upping my SR and game may help this. But I get the impression from her that she feels like they are some dirty slutty thing. 

So ya, any suggestions or comments in this would be helpful. 

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  • iam44iam44 earthSilver Member Posts: 59
    edited July 2014

    "She said that first of all she did a lot of stuff with me early on to keep me around and once she knew I wasn't leaving she didn't feel like she had to do it anymore"

    hypergamy has no shame.

    So you are learning the hard way the other maxim of, "Watch what they do, not what they say".

    You will find that my posts in general can have an antagonistic and slightly cynical tone to them. This is my basic red pill stance and die hard belief in the Evo-bio aspects of red pill.

    So in short, it sounds like she "gamed" you into marriage as her Beta provider ticket. That aside, a few basic questions which I will ask without having read your triage.

    Is your objective sex rank at least 1-2 points higher than hers?

    If so does she understand it this way? Explicitly by either saying it or acting that way? (My vote is that no, she does not see it that way based on WHAT SHE DOES or doesn't in this case DO which is fellatio).

    I don't have any other questions because it's that simple, she doesn't find you hot enough to do things she used to in the "capture phase". She feels comfortable enough in her relationship with you that she can withhold that which she felt she had to provide when there was the potential of competition for your attention and commitment.

    So you have a few things you can do. If you are already that much hotter than her, objectively speaking, at least 2 points, you can work towards dread and phase 4.

    If you are not hotter then her, go back to phase one, turn up your MAP and get your act together until such time as she demonstrably believes you to be hotter than her.

    Either way, the end goal (Not the BJ, it's a side effect of reaching the end goal) is to destabilize the relationship enough that,

    A: she thinks it is indeed possible that you CAN leave, and

    B that it is indeed possible that you WANT to leave due to her sub-par marital performance across the board and

    C that she believes that if you DO LEAVE that you can do better without her than you can with her. e.g. you can dump her ass, walk out the door and score a lady ten years your junior who is not a land whale and she will happily blow you every morning.

    She will only arrive at this conclusion after she see's a number of cues repeatedly and overcomes her own denial about the matter. Don't bother talking about it, speaking will solve nothing, you cannot negotiate desire, ever. I mean it, don't say a thing.

    So, are you sufficiently hotter than her?

    Over to you....


    I had my profile deleted not long ago, I have actually been here since early 2013, I'm not new
    maxx138BlueWolfLoisLaneLovesBatmanHeartburnHydrangea
  • maxx138maxx138 San AntonioMember Posts: 170
    iam44 said:

    "She said that first of all she did a lot of stuff with me early on to keep me around and once she knew I wasn't leaving she didn't feel like she had to do it anymore"

    hypergamy has no shame.

    Lol. Well we all do more at the beginning of a relationship. Definitely hurt when she said that though. It almost feels like you've been tricked. I know that's not the intention though

  • maxx138maxx138 San AntonioMember Posts: 170

    @iam44‌   

    I think she "thinks" my SR is higher in a surface level. But really hers is. I lost a lot of points being my beta self early on and am MAPing and trying to get that back. Men hit on her all the time. She's basically hot enough to get any man 95% of the time. 

    I am losing weight and working out more. I am in testosterone so that is helping with muscle gain

    Totally agree about what you said about not brokering desire. That's exactly it. She is in counseling and on meds for depression so I don't want to pressure her of course. She is afraid to lose me in the sense that she states she is not good enough for me. But I think that it is more the depression talking. 

  • maxx138maxx138 San AntonioMember Posts: 170

    @iam44‌  

    Definitely no one-itis going in she is my third wife, so I got over that a long time ago. I can absolutely see life without her. That's not said to be mean or uncaring of course, but as is said partners are replaceable. 

    I'm trying to cut a little slack because if her depression. But at the same time I have wants and needs. 

    BYW I am also reading "No more Mr Nice Guy" and gaining some great insight off of that. 

  • maxx138maxx138 San AntonioMember Posts: 170

    @Tiger‌  

    Ya we both got lazy. We actually lost a lot if weight together last year. Then her depression hit and she gain it all back plus more and I gained mine back. I only need to lose about 30 pounds to be awesome. 

    So I have the book of course and am on my second reading. She gets flirted with a lot, even when we are out together and I go to the bathroom someone will roll up on her.  I have never been much of a flirter. Do you think I should start flirting with women when she's around? Nothing heavy, just some flirty words or something. Or should I let other women's reactions to me be enough?

  • iam44iam44 earthSilver Member Posts: 59

    "Lol. Well we all do more at the beginning of a relationship. Definitely hurt when she said that though. It almost feels like you've been tricked. I know that's not the intention though"

    Sure, this is the blue pill trap we all fall into, this is why marriages fail so frequently. Do you spend 10 weeks shopping for a car, test driving different models, negotiating with the dealer, paying your money, then drive the thing for 100,000 miles without a shred of maintainance and expect it to still run right? No, of course not.

    Part of the MAP is that you must continue to court your wife in your marriage to succeed, but screw all that blue pill crap about roses and chocolates, use the red pill play book and court for no cash and prizes and get the results you both desire more easily.

    "She is afraid to lose me in the sense that she states she is not good enough for me. But I think that it is more the depression talking."

    This is both good news and a flag for you. Hint, it's a loyalty test. If she is indeed suffering from depression her need for Beta support from you may well be higher than normal. If you go all Alpha all the time you will scare the piss out of her and she won't feel very blow joby for sure. Read up on loyalty tests because you need to know how to deal with them. No need to deal in absolutes , E.g. "Don't worry honey I'll never leave you". because that reinforces her thinking that you'll never leave.

    Rather always say things to leave a bit of room for her hamster to do the work for you, nature abhors a vacuum. "Honey I love you, WHY would I leave you?".

    Indeed, why would you? Don't fill in the blanks, the hamster will do that for you.

    I had my profile deleted not long ago, I have actually been here since early 2013, I'm not new
    Angeliner9stone
  • maxx138maxx138 San AntonioMember Posts: 170

    @iam44‌  

    So you do think that is a loyalty test? It never occurred to me but good catch. Still just starting out in all this. 

    I have been a fairly roughy feely guy in the past, always doing drive bys; groping and "mustaching" the back of her neck, which she loves. I notice that when I consciously pull back and don't do that for a day she thinks something is wrong. In fact even since I started with the MAP and NMMNG stuff she has asked that more frequently

  • maxx138maxx138 San AntonioMember Posts: 170

    @Tiger‌  

    I am always flirty with her, only now in a more Red Pill way. I wonder sometimes if I flirt too much and need to pull away more. 

    The guys that flirt with her are always gone by the time I come back. She have me a huge kiss the last time I came back and she got flirted with. She was establishing her own mate guarding that time because I wasn't aware of what happened til she told me. 

    We were out with people from her work having a good bye outing for her boss who is moving to a new store. She told me on the way home that he grabbed her boob and grabbed the ass of another coworker. I played it cool. Didn't get upset. I just said "oh ya" and left it at that. I never mentioned it again. She went on about how inappropriate it was and this and that on her own, so I feel like that was a proper Alpha response on my part. If not I know you guys will let me know

  • TigerTiger SeattleCategory Moderator* Posts: 2,324
    edited July 2014

    Good, being  flirty from a position of Alpha is good stuff.  The difference between that flirting helping our hurting your position is her level of attraction.  If a busy man of value that she is attracted to is flirting with her that is welcomed and can set the stage for a future sexual encounter.  If a lazy wimp who she has no attraction to is flirting with her that's creepy.  What you will find is that as you work your MAP the same set of things which were neutral or negative before will become positives again.

    I don't think it's necessarily bad for you that other guys flirt with her, or that she flirts with other guys.  The trick is that she needs to see you as more valuable to her than these other "opportunities".  But the entire thing is built on a foundation of attraction, if that is not there then things which work great with it, will fail miserable and will not result in you getting what you seek.

    MAP on my friend, raise your value and work on that attraction and good things will come.  It's hard work, takes time and discipline, but it will work.

    Scarletmaxx138
  • maxx138maxx138 San AntonioMember Posts: 170

    @Tiger‌   

    if a lazy wimp who she has no attraction to is flirting with her that's creepy

    Fortunately that sums up the guys that flirt with her. She definitely sees me as more "valuable" but I think the attraction has slipped due to my beta past. 

    Thank you for your advice

    MAPing on...

    Tiger
  • TigerTiger SeattleCategory Moderator* Posts: 2,324

    @maxx138‌, went back and read your triage post.  If the problem, as you describe is that your wife is looking for you to up the alpha then perhaps she is shit testing you by dragging her feet with the blow jobs.  Perhaps you should make your desire quite clear and then give her the opportunity to meet your needs.  Think about what a strong confident man would do in this situation, and then push things in that direction.

    When you are alone together and the opportunity exists then simply state your desire.

    "I'm feeling very tense today, a blowjob would feel pretty good right now."

    "I'm feeling relaxed, a blowjob would feel very nice."

    "I'd like a blowjob."

    Notice how none of these are actually asking her if you she will give you a blowjob, rather you are simply stating the fact that you would like a blowjob.  That's a subtle distinction, but an important one.  You are clearly stating your desire, not asking for her permission.

    If she turns you down then, go off and do something manly.  Do not reward her with your presence if she chooses not to satisfy your desire.  Don't be bitchy about it, simply matter of fact.  If the hamster engages then feel free to listen to what she has to say and then use the classic, "You've given me a lot to think about." and disengage.

    If she's looking for an Alpha male a clear statement of your desire and an expectation that those around you will meet your desire is an alpha move.

    maxx138
  • maxx138maxx138 San AntonioMember Posts: 170
    edited July 2014

    @Tiger‌  

    Good advice. I'll wait for an opportune time to try it. I'd really like to get to the bottom of what seems to be her issue with it. Is it just an attraction thing, which of course she'd never just come out and say or is it something else. Does she feel it's degrading?  She enjoys when I pull out and cum in her mouth so I don't think it's that. ;)

    The only real comment she has made is that she feels like a BJ outside of sex is a non reciprocal thing and that she'd just rather have me push her head down and do it during sex. So OK. But I want the real BJ. The one where I lay back and she does it from start to finish. 

    I'll continue on and see what happens. Definitely don't need anymore DLV's with her

  • OlddogOlddog CanadaSilver Member Posts: 743

    Are BJs a regular part of foreplay?

    "STOP.THAT." - Tennee
    "So it seems to me, that you can in fact, you can teach an old dog new tricks" - Jamie Hyneman
    "So that's like a foursome every time you guys get it on!  - Monkeys_Uncle h/t Katherine Kelly
  • maxx138maxx138 San AntonioMember Posts: 170
    Olddog said:

    Are BJs a regular part of foreplay?

    No. Again she said once that I should just direct her in that direction if that's what I want. Which, ok ya I guess so. That sounds pretty alpha to just push her head in the direction of my junk and wink at her, no problem

    However I usually do 99% of the foreplay, unless she initiates, and I am almost always rock hard after that so I really don't need it then. I have positioned myself at her mouth and she goes at it when I'm not quite ready to go. But I don't really consider that a BJ since, again, I am doing almost all the work and she's still laying on her back. 

    I'm looking for the spontaneous "damn you're so sexy I just need to suck your cock" BJ, not the "I'm basically just fucking your face" BJ. Lol. I guess we all strive for that

  • AngelineAngeline planting seedsCategory Moderator** Posts: 14,500

    How often are you having sex? I went through a period of refusing to give BJ's because (A) we weren't having much sex and I constantly felt shortchanged (B) there was no reciprocity, but mostly (C) once he orgasmed, the evening was over, and it would be DAYS before anything happened again.

    That she said it's a "non reciprocal sex act" reminded me of how much that sucked.  

    "Speak your truth." - Scarlet
    Remember to play!
    Do the right thing, whether anyone is watching or not.
    Be married, until you are not.

    Email address: angeline.greenwood@att.net
    HowlAtTheMoonMaterStellieTalktome
  • maxx138maxx138 San AntonioMember Posts: 170
    edited July 2014

    @Husband2point1‌ ;

    Agree. I am rationalizing. She did them spontaneously when we dated. 

    @Angeline‌  

    We have sex about three to four times a week. She doesn't always feel like cumming, PIV orgasms do not come easy for her, but she enjoys the sex regardless. So on those nights it's usually just once. Other nights when she is feeling orgasmic and ready we will have sex at least twice sometimes three times with her orgasming up to 6 or 7 times through a combination of toys, PIV, PIA ( yes she has had an orgasm from anal sex with me ). So she's definitely not wanting. Also we agreed that we would always take care of each other. So she lets me know when she needs a big orgasm night :)

    So it's definitely reciprocal. I do however wish she was more active during sex. She will take whatever position I put her in of course, but sometimes I feel like it's me doing a lot of the work. But no real complaints. I can pull her on top whenever she just can't go very long. 

    Angeline
  • maxx138maxx138 San AntonioMember Posts: 170

    @iam44‌  

    Just for clarification, what do you mean by "evo-bio"?

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