I am of the personal belief (and feel free to disagree) that everyone, whether they are willing to admit it or not, is just a little bit bisexual and given the right environmental factors, can/will change sides. Imagine Ian Malcolm saying 'love, uhh, finds a way. there it is.'
In light of that, an EA with a gay man is as bad as an EA with a straight man. I would address it.
I can't foresee a situation where I'd change sides, but that's beside the point. What is relevant is that men are naturally wired to be attracted to women, so I think that this gay man could turn primal and come back to heterosexuality. The desire to have sexual relations with women, if only to procreate, has to be in there somewhere.
I'm thinking about leaving a VAR in their office to verify that nothing's going on. I can come and go as I please.
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BlackwulfLeading the pack. Silver MemberPosts: 1,782
How long has she known this guy? How long have they been close? If you run a keep on with your MAP you will get the leadership up to where she will be more attracted. I think if you put more muscle on your frame you will get more traction too. That will make her feel protected. The rule of thumb is that a spouse doesn't notice a MAP progression/changes responses by 3-6 months. So there is a lag in there.
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BlackwulfLeading the pack. Silver MemberPosts: 1,782
I wouldn't put a VAR in an office, that could blow up horribly. It is one thing to put it in a car/your own home, totally another on someone else's property.
Do you have access to her phone or email/social media?
@blackwulf she has known this guy for three years. They've been close like this for most of that time. She leads a workout class after work on premises with her colleagues for free. He participates. He is more for than I am, but I am closing fast. She has noticed my improved physique. She used to invite me to join, but I was so out of shape in the past. Also, I didn't want to appear weaker than others as that would be a DLV. When I'm ripped, I'll probably join in. I just popped in at their work unexpectedly. I think I'll do that more often just to have a presence. I know many if her colleagues and supervisors well enough to where if they suspected something, they might help stop it or give me a heads up. Good idea on the VAR. I've put one in the car before. I check phone records periodically (not nearly as much as I used to). Everything checks out fine.
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HildaCornersWinter? You call *that* winter?Gold WomenPosts: 3,377
I still think this is a BFF situation, possibly an EA on her part, and nothing on his.
Since you're friendly with GM, I'd suggest a slightly different "hands off my wife" talk: "GM, I think my wife may be crushing on you. I know you don't swing that way, but don't give her any indications you might have that kind of interest in her." [He'll probably respond with a George Takei "Oh My!"]
Keep working on your Awesome. From what you've said, it's working well, just slowly.
Enneagram 5w4. I'm researching what that means, before designing t-shirt art about it.
"I feel no shame in making lavish use of the strongest muscles, namely male ones (but my own strongest muscle is dedicated to the service of men - noblesse oblige). I don't begrudge men one whit of their natural advantages as long as they respect mine. I am not an unhappy pseudomale; I am female and like it that way." RAH
@HildaCorners lol Yeah, I'll keep working on myself. I think I was unavailable or difficult when it came to her emotional needs for many years, that she has gotten used to getting those needs met by others. She hasn't completely trusted me with her vulnerabilities and feelings for so long. Now that I've made gains, I see this and want her back. It will take a while. I still think she is waiting for me to break frame and get frustrated with her. It hasn't happened in months.
@HildaCorners lol Yeah, I'll keep working on myself. I think I was unavailable or difficult when it came to her emotional needs for many years, that she has gotten used to getting those needs met by others. She hasn't completely trusted me with her vulnerabilities and feelings for so long.
She hasn't trusted you? From my reading of your triage, that's because you have found it difficult to be emotionally close to you because she's been a verbally abusive alcoholic.
I get the impression that you make a lot of excuses for her.
It seems like both you and she lay the blame for the marriage problems at your feet, when her dysfunction seems to be at the core of it.
lostphoenix said: I have a "gay husband" so to speak. He's fun, totally sarcastic and says it how he sees it. We worked together, he's currently in Asia but we talk at least once a month or facebook, what's app about business, work, husbands, everything. He really is one of the girls more than a potential EA/PA.
@lostpoenix, the difference here is that while you talk to your "gay husband" once a month, Mrs Zot talks to this guy all day every day. She tells him everything. He was her confidante in her decision to ask for divorce. And he gives her massages.
Let's say zot wanted to go ultra-beta and offer his wife a massage. How special would that actually be, given that she already has a close male friend who can do that for her?
@Frank_London The events of the last couple of years (birth of our second son, wife's increase in SR through exercise and career status) have distracted me from our rocky past. Our first several years together were really rough because of her past abuse and other issues. I was much more alpha back then. Every time I said I was going out with my good friend/mentor, she would throw a fit and get physically ill. She was afraid I was going to cheat on her. After five years of holding my ground on this, I eventually gave up and went all out blue pill. It was at that point that she "checked out" of our marriage without overtly telling me (she revealed this to me two months ago). Anyway, I'm doing shit for myself now. Going to a game this weekend with that old friend (and taking my oldest son). With help from you guys on this forum, I'm piecing together a lot of events over the years that led me to where I was. I'm seeing what I could have done differently, but also realizing how much crap she put me through because she wouldn't see a therapist.
@Frank_London The events of the last couple of years (birth of our second son, wife's increase in SR through exercise and career status) have distracted me from our rocky past. Our first several years together were really rough because of her past abuse and other issues. I was much more alpha back then. Every time I said I was going out with my good friend/mentor, she would throw a fit and get physically ill. She was afraid I was going to cheat on her. After five years of holding my ground on this, I eventually gave up and went all out blue pill. It was at that point that she "checked out" of our marriage without overtly telling me (she revealed this to me two months ago). Anyway, I'm doing shit for myself now. Going to a game this weekend with that old friend (and taking my oldest son). With help from you guys on this forum, I'm piecing together a lot of events over the years that led me to where I was. I'm seeing what I could have done differently, but also realizing how much crap she put me through because she wouldn't see a therapist.
That's all great stuff.
But one thing I'd like to see you stop doing - I've bolded the relevant bit - is excusing and explaining her behavior every single time you mention it. Sure, okay, she got stalked years ago and was traumatized by it... but she's an adult and she's in a marriage with kids, and you have to deal with her shit. Today. It's time to move on and make things better, one way or another. And it's time to stop theorizing about why she treats you like shit. Maybe it's got nothing to do with high school stalker guy. Maybe she does it because that's just how she treats you and she gets away with it.
Also, I'd take the claim that she checked out years ago with a grain of salt. She may have started to feel dissatisfied back then, but who knows if she actually checked out so long ago or if this is just revisionism based on how she feels today.
@Zot Is it in her gay friends interest to try and break up your marriage? Is she vulnerable to being negatively influenced by others ?
Has she thought about the consequences of being a single mom ?
If you are comfortable talking about this, how is she with the children?
Is she short tempered and quick to anger ? Affectionate without being smoothering ? Supportive without being controlling ? Does she geuninely like being a mother or is it more of a bother and burden ?
Is she looking for an escape from all this responsibility?
What concerns me more from your triage is not other men in her life regardless of whether they are straight or gay but her possible lack of genuine self esteem and confidence.
When a person feels inadequate they can be very unpredictable and often unreliable.
Feeling inadequate creates the sense of an emptiness inside you compelling them to turn toward others with the expectation that they will fill it and punishing them when they don't
She will not be able to love you or anyone if she has a conflicted relationship with herself. This emotional neediness will make her hunger for attention from anyone that offers it but like a drug addict the more she gets the more she will demand always saying you don't love her "enough" or in the "right way" ect...
It has a vampirism about it leaving you feeling drained and exhausted by your interactions. This could play into your ADD in dangerous ways.
You actually come across as having a much higher SR than her but managing all her stuff may have impacted your own confidence.
In my opinion it is important to understand her emotional needs, including those needs that may be unhealthy, if you want to determine if other men are a danger to you.
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it. ~Andre Gide
"If you love someone, set him free; if you have to stalk him, he probably wasn't yours in the first place."
What concerns me more from your triage is not other men in her life regardless of whether they are straight or gay but her possible lack of genuine self esteem and confidence.
When a person feels inadequate they can be very unpredictable and often unreliable.
There are plenty of people with self esteem issues who aren't alcoholics or who fly off the handle at their spouse. Both Zot and Mrs Zot are already very skilled at making excuses for her.
If you're suggesting BPD, then yeah maybe, but that's a whole other ball game.
I'd like to see him address the known problems and if in the course of that BPD or something else starts emerging, deal with it then.
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HildaCornersWinter? You call *that* winter?Gold WomenPosts: 3,377
Another red flag here is Mrs Zot's attitude that "gay is a choice."
Many women with this thought want to be "the special woman" that can turn a gay man straight. If Mrs Zot is like this, she's going to throw a whole lot of dopamine at GM (who will ignore it) and that could seriously mess up things in the Zot household.
Enneagram 5w4. I'm researching what that means, before designing t-shirt art about it.
"I feel no shame in making lavish use of the strongest muscles, namely male ones (but my own strongest muscle is dedicated to the service of men - noblesse oblige). I don't begrudge men one whit of their natural advantages as long as they respect mine. I am not an unhappy pseudomale; I am female and like it that way." RAH
She's an evangelical Christian who believes he is choosing this lifestyle. She calls him by a nickname.
Yep. Not only does her lizard brain see him as a heterosexual guy, her frontal cortex sees him that way too. There is no sense in which she thinks of him as 'one of the girls.'
@katherinekelly I don't think the GM wants to break up our marriage. I think as long as he is happy in his own relationship (8 years together) I don't see him switching teams. W is a good mother, although she can be abrasive to the boys. I find myself needing to intervene and protect them from her venom from time to time. As the boys have gotten older, she has turned more of her venom to them and less toward me. Last spring, when I was starting my MAP, she said on many occasions that she just wanted to get away by herself for a weekend. She expressed that she was burned out by constantly being needed by the boys, work, me, ect. She never did this, nor had she brought it up in 4 months. When we discussed it, I suggested that, if she were to go, she would leave her phone at home. She said she would want to talk with her BFF (older woman) and her father. The reason she was burned out is that she simply cannot say no to others' requests (mostly work related). She is a people pleaser. You hit the nail on the head regarding her feelings of inadequacy. I sometimes feel like she is always trying to compete with me. She also has major body image issues. For the first four years of our marriage, she would throw up her meals at least once a day. Then she was diagnosed with Hashimotos and that stopped.
@Legs My past attempts to set boundaries with the GM and the other coworker (motorcycle guy-a temp who lives with his parents) have been met with bs rationalizations. She behaves like an addict who thinks she is entitled to this kind of relationship. Her work environment is family-like (lots of beta flowing everywhere). I saw a therapist back in March. She agreed W has a lack of boundaries. W went with me to a session. W put up a front and didn't express much of her feelings. The therapist wasn't very helpful to say the least. W doesn't talk much about her interactions with GM lately. Sex has been gradually getting better and more regular, with her initiating twice in the last week. Both of those times, she wasn't wearing panties under her moo moo - a big step as she hasn't behaved like this in a long time. I need to find the right words to stop this EA (and potential PA).
I had to set boundaries on gay friend. He "dropped by" a LOT.
"If he is here when I get off of work then I expect a phone call to let me know. I won't try to control you, but you have a choice to make and so do I. He's not my friend and I get to decide when I'm around him. "
Of course, she never called me. If his car was there when I got home, I threw some sort of sporting equipment in the car and left. Omission of call meant no dad at home tonight.
She cried. She railed.
I said, "deal breaker."
Boundaries got set. I have pretty much determined that wife will test any boundary that I set because she has none. (Though is starting to)
What concerns me more from your triage is not other men in her life regardless of whether they are straight or gay but her possible lack of genuine self esteem and confidence.
When a person feels inadequate they can be very unpredictable and often unreliable.
There are plenty of people with self esteem issues who aren't alcoholics or who fly off the handle at their spouse. Both Zot and Mrs Zot are already very skilled at making excuses for her.
If you're suggesting BPD, then yeah maybe, but that's a whole other ball game.
I'd like to see him address the known problems and if in the course of that BPD or something else starts emerging, deal with it then.
@Frank_London I just did some research on BPD. My W meets all of the criteria except suicidal tendencies, which are hard to discover. She was a cutter when I met her. I had to plead with her to stop cutting her arm and wrist. Tonight, we were reprimanding our son for a behavioral problem he had at school. He was very remorseful and distraught. Yet, she continued to kick him while he was down (not literally) with intense venom. I stepped in and told her to she can be vampire to me, but to back off on our son. She proceeded to attack me. I pointed out that she can choose how she wishes to behave in this situation. She backed off and shut down for the night (BPD symptom). This will likely drag on a for a day or two before she rationalizes that is all my fault. I felt so much power and control in the situation. My MAP is working. I feel like sending her a link to the BPD description on Wikipedia. She really needs help with this. Otherwise, I feel like it's up to me to end the marriage and protect my boys. When she got in the house from picking up our son from school, she was chasing him with a ruler, hitting him, to make him feel how it was for him to pick in the other kids at school that day. Rather than express disappointment, she resorted to anger. After all if that, she sacked out on the couch for a few hours. I'm sure she'll get plenty of beta from GM in the morning.
@Legs She really on top of her thyroid problems. I'm often the one to confirm that she's hypo - hair in the sink is usually a calling card. She goes to her endo ASAP to get her blood checked. She also exercises regularly - running at 5:00 am the teaching exercise class after work several time a week.
She also expresses that she wishes he wouldn't be gay anymore. This is the line that grabbed my attention. He may not be having an EA, but I believe that your wife is...
Comments
I wouldn't feel comfortable either, @Zot.
If you run a keep on with your MAP you will get the leadership up to where she will be more attracted. I think if you put more muscle on your frame you will get more traction too. That will make her feel protected. The rule of thumb is that a spouse doesn't notice a MAP progression/changes responses by 3-6 months. So there is a lag in there.
Do you have access to her phone or email/social media?
I just popped in at their work unexpectedly. I think I'll do that more often just to have a presence. I know many if her colleagues and supervisors well enough to where if they suspected something, they might help stop it or give me a heads up.
Good idea on the VAR. I've put one in the car before. I check phone records periodically (not nearly as much as I used to). Everything checks out fine.
Since you're friendly with GM, I'd suggest a slightly different "hands off my wife" talk: "GM, I think my wife may be crushing on you. I know you don't swing that way, but don't give her any indications you might have that kind of interest in her." [He'll probably respond with a George Takei "Oh My!"]
Keep working on your Awesome. From what you've said, it's working well, just slowly.
Enneagram 5w4. I'm researching what that means, before designing t-shirt art about it.
"I feel no shame in making lavish use of the strongest muscles, namely male ones (but my own strongest muscle is dedicated to the service of men - noblesse oblige). I don't begrudge men one whit of their natural advantages as long as they respect mine. I am not an unhappy pseudomale; I am female and like it that way." RAH
I get the impression that you make a lot of excuses for her.
It seems like both you and she lay the blame for the marriage problems at your feet, when her dysfunction seems to be at the core of it.
@lostpoenix, the difference here is that while you talk to your "gay husband" once a month, Mrs Zot talks to this guy all day every day. She tells him everything. He was her confidante in her decision to ask for divorce. And he gives her massages.
Let's say zot wanted to go ultra-beta and offer his wife a massage. How special would that actually be, given that she already has a close male friend who can do that for her?
With help from you guys on this forum, I'm piecing together a lot of events over the years that led me to where I was. I'm seeing what I could have done differently, but also realizing how much crap she put me through because she wouldn't see a therapist.
That's all great stuff.
But one thing I'd like to see you stop doing - I've bolded the relevant bit - is excusing and explaining her behavior every single time you mention it. Sure, okay, she got stalked years ago and was traumatized by it... but she's an adult and she's in a marriage with kids, and you have to deal with her shit. Today. It's time to move on and make things better, one way or another. And it's time to stop theorizing about why she treats you like shit. Maybe it's got nothing to do with high school stalker guy. Maybe she does it because that's just how she treats you and she gets away with it.
Also, I'd take the claim that she checked out years ago with a grain of salt. She may have started to feel dissatisfied back then, but who knows if she actually checked out so long ago or if this is just revisionism based on how she feels today.
Has she thought about the consequences of being a single mom ?
If you are comfortable talking about this, how is she with the children?
Is she short tempered and quick to anger ? Affectionate without being smoothering ? Supportive without being controlling ? Does she geuninely like being a mother or is it more of a bother and burden ?
Is she looking for an escape from all this responsibility?
What concerns me more from your triage is not other men in her life regardless of whether they are straight or gay but her possible lack of genuine self esteem and confidence.
When a person feels inadequate they can be very unpredictable and often unreliable.
Feeling inadequate creates the sense of an emptiness inside you compelling them to turn toward others with the expectation that they will fill it and punishing them when they don't
She will not be able to love you or anyone if she has a conflicted relationship with herself. This emotional neediness will make her hunger for attention from anyone that offers it but like a drug addict the more she gets the more she will demand always saying you don't love her "enough" or in the "right way" ect...
It has a vampirism about it leaving you feeling drained and exhausted by your interactions. This could play into your ADD in dangerous ways.
You actually come across as having a much higher SR than her but managing all her stuff may have impacted your own confidence.
In my opinion it is important to understand her emotional needs, including those needs that may be unhealthy, if you want to determine if other men are a danger to you.
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it. ~Andre Gide
"If you love someone, set him free; if you have to stalk him, he probably wasn't yours in the first place."
If you're suggesting BPD, then yeah maybe, but that's a whole other ball game.
I'd like to see him address the known problems and if in the course of that BPD or something else starts emerging, deal with it then.
Many women with this thought want to be "the special woman" that can turn a gay man straight. If Mrs Zot is like this, she's going to throw a whole lot of dopamine at GM (who will ignore it) and that could seriously mess up things in the Zot household.
Enneagram 5w4. I'm researching what that means, before designing t-shirt art about it.
"I feel no shame in making lavish use of the strongest muscles, namely male ones (but my own strongest muscle is dedicated to the service of men - noblesse oblige). I don't begrudge men one whit of their natural advantages as long as they respect mine. I am not an unhappy pseudomale; I am female and like it that way." RAH
W is a good mother, although she can be abrasive to the boys. I find myself needing to intervene and protect them from her venom from time to time. As the boys have gotten older, she has turned more of her venom to them and less toward me.
Last spring, when I was starting my MAP, she said on many occasions that she just wanted to get away by herself for a weekend. She expressed that she was burned out by constantly being needed by the boys, work, me, ect. She never did this, nor had she brought it up in 4 months. When we discussed it, I suggested that, if she were to go, she would leave her phone at home. She said she would want to talk with her BFF (older woman) and her father. The reason she was burned out is that she simply cannot say no to others' requests (mostly work related). She is a people pleaser.
You hit the nail on the head regarding her feelings of inadequacy. I sometimes feel like she is always trying to compete with me. She also has major body image issues. For the first four years of our marriage, she would throw up her meals at least once a day. Then she was diagnosed with Hashimotos and that stopped.
I saw a therapist back in March. She agreed W has a lack of boundaries. W went with me to a session. W put up a front and didn't express much of her feelings. The therapist wasn't very helpful to say the least.
W doesn't talk much about her interactions with GM lately. Sex has been gradually getting better and more regular, with her initiating twice in the last week. Both of those times, she wasn't wearing panties under her moo moo - a big step as she hasn't behaved like this in a long time.
I need to find the right words to stop this EA (and potential PA).
"If he is here when I get off of work then I expect a phone call to let me know. I won't try to control you, but you have a choice to make and so do I. He's not my friend and I get to decide when I'm around him. "
Of course, she never called me. If his car was there when I got home, I threw some sort of sporting equipment in the car and left. Omission of call meant no dad at home tonight.
She cried. She railed.
I said, "deal breaker."
Boundaries got set. I have pretty much determined that wife will test any boundary that I set because she has none. (Though is starting to)
Tonight, we were reprimanding our son for a behavioral problem he had at school. He was very remorseful and distraught. Yet, she continued to kick him while he was down (not literally) with intense venom. I stepped in and told her to she can be vampire to me, but to back off on our son. She proceeded to attack me. I pointed out that she can choose how she wishes to behave in this situation. She backed off and shut down for the night (BPD symptom). This will likely drag on a for a day or two before she rationalizes that is all my fault. I felt so much power and control in the situation. My MAP is working.
I feel like sending her a link to the BPD description on Wikipedia. She really needs help with this.
Otherwise, I feel like it's up to me to end the marriage and protect my boys.
When she got in the house from picking up our son from school, she was chasing him with a ruler, hitting him, to make him feel how it was for him to pick in the other kids at school that day. Rather than express disappointment, she resorted to anger. After all if that, she sacked out on the couch for a few hours.
I'm sure she'll get plenty of beta from GM in the morning.
She also exercises regularly - running at 5:00 am the teaching exercise class after work several time a week.
This is the line that grabbed my attention. He may not be having an EA, but I believe that your wife is...