Things are getting worse quickly

bobz · July 2014

Here's my triage....

Question One – Basic Questions

I'm 36, she's 37. Married for 8 years and 3 kids, 5, 3 and 7 months. We dated for 3 years before getting married but were also together in college for about year, close friends before that.

I'm 6'2", 185, fairly athletic build. She's 5'7", pretty skinny but 3 kids beat up her body a little.... I'm still attracted to her.

Question Two – Rule Out Medical

No medical conditions for either of us and we're pretty healthy. I did tell her to have her hormones tested during her physical last year and according to her, the doctor said the blood work was normal. She has not been on any birth control for many years. She is currently breast feeding.

Question Three – Rule Out Structural Attraction Issues

Nothing seriously structural. Nice house, I make a good living and she doesn't need to work but she does sell crafts she makes from home. She also does therapy online from the house.... she's a licensed social worker.

Question Four – Rule Out Critical Moments and Neglect

No addictions or serious problems; although the 2-3 hours of tv I watch at night bothers her..... we used to watch tv together. There was an incident where some drunk girl at a bar in Vegas called her very late at night. It was a buddy's bachelor party and I was actually showing the annoying girls a picture of my wife while being a good wing man. Nothing happened but I said my friend was talking to the girl, later on one my friend's wives told her I was up all night talking to the girl. Both stories were true but she flipped out and didn't talk to me for a while.

Question Five – Rule Out Outside Sexual Sources

I watch porn but not to the point that it's a problem. I've been going through her phone, history, facebook messages, etc. There's nothing that I've been able to find.

Question Six – When Did the Sex Go Bad?

In college we would fool around almost every night.... it's odd to write that.... she was very sexual and very into me. Weekly sex by the time we got married but I think even then she was starting to force herself. After our second child, things got worse and it was about once a month. That went for about a year before I found this and other sites, read the primer, started MAPping. 4 months of MAPping and the frequency didn't change but she did initiate sex a few times. One of those times she caught me off guard and she got pregnant. We've had sex twice since then, nothing in about 13 months.

Question Seven – What Was the Sex Like at the Start of the Relationship?

Sex was awesome in the beginning, the main reason I got back together with her after college. The bait and switch was a long process.

Question Eight – What’s the Elephant in the Room?

I don't like to say I'm depressed but I'm extremely disappointed in the way our relationship has turned out. I have a hard time getting motivated to do anything and once I found out she was pregnant with #3, it was worse. I basically stopped working out and eating healthy. I started to struggle even at work, luckily that hasn't caught up to me... yet. She was also very upset when she found out she was pregnant the third time, but pretended not to be after the day was found out.... she broke down that day.

Question Nine – Who is the Leader in your Marriage?

I definitely let her lead before swallowing the red pill. I never wanted to fight or even upset her... she usually got her way and I let her make too many decisions. Even now I have to be conscience about leading.... a lot of the time I have zero motivation, especially lately.

Question Ten – Tell Us About the Good Times

There was no clear line about when things were good or bad. Even now there are a few good times but they're rare.

I feel like I'm the same person, in some ways better since I started MAPping. Recently her craft business has been doing very well (for an out of the house craft business) and she's even signed the lease on a real store front. Things have gotten worse as she's gotten busier. She expects me to do more around the house. I already do all the house repairs, maintain the yard, fold the laundry, do the grocery shopping, cook a few dinners at night after the kids go to bed, pick up the house a little. We recently got a cleaning lady (something neither of us were doing.) Lately she expects more, she recently got upset when I told her I'm not going to be making the kids' lunches and getting them ready for camp.

She wants her work to be as important as mine but she's not paying any of the bills besides day care and her own expenses. Her jobs bring in about 1/6 of my income and although it's nice to have, we don't need her income. She gets very upset if I say something like that.

She's "threatened" divorce a few times, even said we would be divorced if she wasn't pregnant (she was pregnant at the time.) I don't usually react. Lately I've been doing less around the house even though she's been asking for more. We hardly even talk these days. I know I should talk to her, be fun and flirty. I know I should be MAPping harder, more alpha and leadership, but I'm less motivated every day. I don't even feel like talking to her. There's zero affection from either of us. If I do move over to her side of the bed, I usually get a swift elbow to the chest. I don't show a reaction at the time but it takes a toll and I want to interact with her even less. I need to flip my motivation to life after the marriage but that's hard to think about because of the kids. I do still want it to work out. Although this is my first post, I'm not exactly new here and have gone through many similar posts. I appreciate any insight and advice.

al2682 · July 2014

@Serenity‌ Please move to 911

Edit : not 911 perhaps, but introduce yourself.

Welcome - glad you started with a triage. You will get some good help here.

WillThisWork · July 2014

Hi @bobz‌ - It sounds like you are feeling really crappy right now. I'm very sorry to hear that.

This post, though, is in the Success Stories section. Whoops! Let's see if we can get it to the right place so that more people can see it and help you.

@Jen_Kay‌ - can this be moved to Introduce Yourself or 911?

Scarlet · July 2014

What do you mean by "one of those times she caught me off guard and She got pregnant?"

frillyfun · July 2014

How is your testosterone level? It can naturally dip when there's a new baby in the house taking with it a lot of your motivation.

It sounds like you two need to get on the same page about her business. Has she shared any kind of a business plan with you?

Why does she feel the need to earn extra money? Have you been Captaining the financials- do you have a budget?

Changed_Man · July 2014

frillyfun said:

It sounds like you two need to get on the same page about her business. Has she shared any kind of a business plan with you?

FTR, define "same page"

bobz · July 2014

Thanks for moving the post.

Scarlet, even though she doesn't want to use the pill or condoms, It's become my responsibility to make sure she doesn't get pregnant. I track her cycle and am cautious about when she's ovulating, I would insist on a condom that time of the month. I usually have this information before initiating anything.

Frilly, haven't had my testosterone level checked but even if it was low, I'm sure it's nothing that some more exercise couldn't help with.

I've let her make her own decisions with regards to the business. As long as her business doesn't need any kind of capital investment from our savings, I'm ok with her making those decisions. She doesn't have anything remotely resembling a business plan and won't do anything outside of the manufacturing side of it. When I make suggestion on things she do, like pay taxes on time, she gets angry and says she can't do everything herself. I agree with that but I have no interest in running her business. She does have a CPA but even her CPA isn't going to hold her hand through every detail.

I have been captaining the financials... that's one area I'm very much on top of. I think she likes having her own money. If it's money she's earning, I don't question about how she's spending it.... that's actually been working pretty well. I used to question her spending but let it go now since it doesn't effect our budget. It's something she likes doing, sometimes she treats it like a hobby, sometimes she treats it like a 9-5 job that's a burden on her.... depends on the frame she's presenting at the time.

frillyfun · July 2014

By same page I mean that she's making some fairly major changes to the family dynamic when she goes from being a SAHM to running a business with a storefront. You'd think common courtesy would dictate at least a little discussion between partners.

They may not get on the same page, but I'm not seeing any real mention of them communicating about this situation in any meaningful way either.

The business is only a part of a pretty complicated situation though.

Edge · July 2014

@bobz You guys are in a relationship death spiral from what it seems. Her rejections make you more distant and moody, which make her more repulsed, which makes you want to give up, which makes her even more repulsed, on and on. Generally speaking, I would venture that men are the primary ones to lead a couple out of such a death spiral. Yours will be a challenge, but it doesn't sound hopeless by any means.

OK, so if I had to live in a marriage with no affection, no sex, and getting elbowed by my wife, I would be a sad sack for sure. In the past, I get nearly physically ill when we would get in very little fights for a couple of days, so I can imagine most of the malaise you're suffering from stems from not getting the sex and affection that a normal man needs to prosper and conquer the world. Your wife is likely suffering in a similar way -- you're like two little Chinese orphans sleeping next to each other, desperate for physical contact but somehow mutually refusing to give it to each other.

It seems like one of those classic "freeze outs" where two people refuse sex and affection to the other to see who budges first. The general wisdom around here is that women ALWAYS WIN a freeze out contest. There's not going to be a point that she magically breaks down and says, "I'm so sorry I've been ignoring my wifely duties. I'm so lost without you. Let's make love!"

You say you've been "MAPping for months," but what exactly has that entailed other than being the financial captain? You've "let yourself go" (which goes against what should be the #1 part of every man's MAP, physical fitness and prowess) and you 100% have been sucked into the abyss of your wife's frame.

From your description, it's likely that you moved past the "no attraction" thing long ago, towards the "seething contempt" Roissy talks about in the Fourth Commandment.

IV. Don’t play by her rules

If you allow a woman to make the rules she will resent you with a seething contempt even a rapist cannot inspire. The strongest woman and the most strident feminist wants to be led by, and to submit to, a more powerful man. Polarity is the core of a healthy loving relationship. She does not want the prerogative to walk all over you with her capricious demands and mercurial moods. Her emotions are a hurricane, her soul a saboteur. Think of yourself as a bulwark against her tempest. When she grasps for a pillar to steady herself against the whipping winds or yearns for an authority figure to foil her worst instincts, it is you who has to be there… strong, solid, unshakeable and immovable.

Still, I would like to encourage you to keep going and not start planning your "Phase Seven" when you are so profoundly mired in Phase One. It's not going to involve "easy" things like losing weight and making more money, but much more radical shifts in your dynamics. You need to reverse the downward spiral to an upward spiral. With each small victory, your desire to prosper and succeed in the relationship will be strengthened, your manliness will be bolstered, and you will both be much, much, much happier.

Olddog · July 2014

Welcome!

Thanks for the triage.

Kids 5, 3 and 7 months? As much as I LOVE those ages, I also HATE them. And as a mom, I have to say, so close together kinda makes me shudder (One of them, not really planned for? Do you think that's a moment of critical neglect? You're using condoms now, right???)

When exactly did the Las Vegas thing happen?

Her hormone test from a year ago is worthless IMO, not with a 7 month old. Others should chime in though.

Don't get into a pissing match over whose job is more important - it all goes into the same pool and you both reap the benefits of extra cash, right?

Not doing shit around the house, well that sounds passive aggressive to me if you're not depressed...

Have you read any of the books? The blog?

spanky · July 2014

no pill, and no condom? And the expectation that no one gets pregnant? That doesn't seem very well thought out...

stillasamountain · July 2014

Olddog said:
Not doing shit around the house, well that sounds passive aggressive to me if you're not depressed...
Have you read any of the books? The blog?

"I already do all the house repairs, maintain the yard, fold the laundry, do the grocery shopping, cook a few dinners at night after the kids go to bed, pick up the house a little. We recently got a cleaning lady (something neither of us were doing.) Lately she expects more, she recently got upset when I told her I'm not going to be making the kids' lunches and getting them ready for camp."

Seems like he's doing a fair bit, for a person with a full time job, no? As well as ponying up for extra help.

bobz · July 2014

frillyfun said:

By same page I mean that she's making some fairly major changes to the family dynamic when she goes from being a SAHM to running a business with a storefront. You'd think common courtesy would dictate at least a little discussion between partners.
They may not get on the same page, but I'm not seeing any real mention of them communicating about this situation in any meaningful way either.
The business is only a part of a pretty complicated situation though.

There was communication about the store. I want to support her with her business but at the same time I think it's a poor business decision to open a store while you're taking care of 3 kids, can't keep up with current online orders and have no other help. I did have that discussion with her but ultimately, I let her make the decisions about her business. It's when she's not able to do anything else around the house that it becomes a problem with the relationship.

Edge said:

@bobz You guys are in a relationship death spiral from what it seems. Her rejections make you more distant and moody, which make her more repulsed, which makes you want to give up, which makes her even more repulsed, on and on. Generally speaking, I would venture that men are the primary ones to lead a couple out of such a death spiral. Yours will be a challenge, but it doesn't sound hopeless by any means.
OK, so if I had to live in a marriage with no affection, no sex, and getting elbowed by my wife, I would be a sad sack for sure. In the past, I get nearly physically ill when we would get in very little fights for a couple of days, so I can imagine most of the malaise you're suffering from stems from not getting the sex and affection that a normal man needs to prosper and conquer the world. Your wife is likely suffering in a similar way -- you're like two little Chinese orphans sleeping next to each other, desperate for physical contact but somehow mutually refusing to give it to each other.
It seems like one of those classic "freeze outs" where two people refuse sex and affection to the other to see who budges first. The general wisdom around here is that women ALWAYS WIN a freeze out contest. There's not going to be a point that she magically breaks down and says, "I'm so sorry I've been ignoring my wifely duties. I'm so lost without you. Let's make love!"
You say you've been "MAPping for months," but what exactly has that entailed other than being the financial captain? You've "let yourself go" (which goes against what should be the #1 part of every man's MAP, physical fitness and prowess) and you 100% have been sucked into the abyss of your wife's frame.
From your description, it's likely that you moved past the "no attraction" thing long ago, towards the "seething contempt" Roissy talks about in the Fourth Commandment.
IV. Don’t play by her rules
If you allow a woman to make the rules she will resent you with a seething contempt even a rapist cannot inspire. The strongest woman and the most strident feminist wants to be led by, and to submit to, a more powerful man. Polarity is the core of a healthy loving relationship. She does not want the prerogative to walk all over you with her capricious demands and mercurial moods. Her emotions are a hurricane, her soul a saboteur. Think of yourself as a bulwark against her tempest. When she grasps for a pillar to steady herself against the whipping winds or yearns for an authority figure to foil her worst instincts, it is you who has to be there… strong, solid, unshakeable and immovable.
Still, I would like to encourage you to keep going and not start planning your "Phase Seven" when you are so profoundly mired in Phase One. It's not going to involve "easy" things like losing weight and making more money, but much more radical shifts in your dynamics. You need to reverse the downward spiral to an upward spiral. With each small victory, your desire to prosper and succeed in the relationship will be strengthened, your manliness will be bolstered, and you will both be much, much, much happier.

Great comments.... you're 100% correct. Luckily she's a therapist and is happy to point out the death spiral analogy. It is true though and I know from past experience that the direction of the spiral won't change until I take action... it's still good to hear that from someone else. I was doing p90x and weights after that. That's stopped since the baby came along but I'm going to start working out again. I've been taking more of a leadership role with decisions and the kids, and trying to add more alpha in the relationship. I agree I'm still in Phase One and need to start back at the beginning. I'm also going to go over the primer again since it's been over a year since I read it.

Olddog said:

Welcome!
Thanks for the triage.
Kids 5, 3 and 7 months? As much as I LOVE those ages, I also HATE them. And as a mom, I have to say, so close together kinda makes me shudder (One of them, not really planned for? Do you think that's a moment of critical neglect? You're using condoms now, right???)
When exactly did the Las Vegas thing happen?
Her hormone test from a year ago is worthless IMO, not with a 7 month old. Others should chime in though.
Don't get into a pissing match over whose job is more important - it all goes into the same pool and you both reap the benefits of extra cash, right?
Not doing shit around the house, well that sounds passive aggressive to me if you're not depressed...
Have you read any of the books? The blog?

The baby was not planned. I guess you could say it's an extended moment of critical neglect. No immediate need for the condoms, but let's say yes to that question. The Vegas thing was about 6 years ago. It's not a pissing match about our 2 jobs... it's really apples and oranges, for me at least. I know she wants her job to be as important but it's not. The money does not go in the same pool, in fact it's sitting in her business account. As I mentioned, she pays her expenses and the child care. I sometimes think she plans on using that money if we do seperate.... even though that's a silly thought. I've read the primer and the blogs.

I'll respondent to others when there's more time.... thanks for all the comments.

CartB4Horse · July 2014

I don't think your situation is dire, let alone 911.

I do think it is going to shit and gaining speed.

You came to the right place, MMSL saves marriages that are in a lot worse shape than yours. Understand YOU have to do the work, especially now.

Get in shape. Start today and don't stop. Add muscle, drop fat, start to look hot.

Get to your doctor and get your T-levels checked. Post the results here so that others can look at them and advise.

What are three areas that you need to improve on that you can do this week end/next week? Do them.

bobz · July 2014

mrs_h said:

Can you explain how you track her cycle? She doesn't know when she ovulates, but you do? Do you share an app? I'm not sure how she can chart accurately (ie at all) when she's depending on you to take her temp, check her cervix, etc. I understand what's done is done, but if she clearly initiated during peak fertility, she has no idea and isn't charting. That's not on you. A girl can't say "I don't want to use bc, here, chart for me and make sure you know when to wear a condom." ??
I would consider the Vegas thing a big deal. If I were her, knowing the marital stress you're going through (and have for some time), I would just assume you cheated.
I get the feeling from your post you don't feel she's contributing anything to the household, like you are. Is that true? (Not a loaded question) what sorts of things could she do to gain value in your eyes? Full time job? Better/more responsible at the craft business?

I just track it by days of the month, which is realize is not the most scientific method, I agree it should not be all on me but that's the least of my worries right now.

The Vegas thing was a big deal but it was 6 years ago, before things were bad.

She does contribute to the household. Even if she's not doing a lot around the house, it's hard to take care of 3 young kids. I do give her a lot of credit for that AND that she's able to earn some money from home. She usually does her work until it's time to go to bed, but everything else takes takes a back seat. Any other full time job, we would have a nanny (which I've given her as an option if she wanted to go back to her full time job.) The problem is that she doesn't make that much for the time she puts in doing her crafts.... a nanny would be making more per hour then she is. She has a lot of "value in my eyes" but there needs to be a balance between her work, family, and house. It's a difficult issue.... how do you tell someone with a successful business to not be so successful.

spanky said:

no pill, and no condom? And the expectation that no one gets pregnant? That doesn't seem very well thought out...

I do take other measures but obviously that didn't work out so well.

MILF_in_training said:

Welcome!
In addition to the great advice above, I strongly suggest you read Athol's Married Man Sex Life Primer and No More Mr Nice Guy by Robert Glover.

I've read them both but do need to read the Primer again.

Thanks for the comments.