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Advise on what is turning out to be a Serious Relationship
icaerus
Some tropical paradiseSilver Member Posts: 12
Hello. I just wanted your input on my current relationship. I’m a divorced father of two, 39 yrs old, currently with full custody of both the kids. I’ve been divorced for 3 yrs now, previosly married for 7. My ex wife dropped the d-bomb telling me the ILYBINILWY speech but three months after I found out she was sleeping with somebody else even before I had left the home. I tried in full blue pill way to get her back until I found out about the other man. Anyway, that was a bit of a background.
I dated around and played the field for about a year, swallowed the Red Pill while at the same time took therapy with two amazing guys that pulled me out of the dark hole I was in, until October 2012 that I met my current girlfriend (35 yrs old) at a mutual friend’s birthday party.
Coming out of a divorce, I started things off very casually, giving out this player vibe and not being too serious about it. Our first date was a cup of coffee at Starbucks and in our second (1st proper) date we heavily made out and slept together by the 3rd.
Things organically became more and more serious into the following three months until sometime in March I noticed a sharp change in her attitude; she had always been somewhat reserved and restrained but from then on she opened up quite a bit. Nonetheless we never had the relationship talk. She knew about my kids but I did not introduce them until April 2013. By then all of a sudden I started meeting her friends and family; up until then I was non-existent to them (which was fine by me at the time.)
The sex was pretty good, quite frequent with the exception of around the holidays 2012. It came a point where I would get up and leave after she rejected me and having gone though what I had, I kinda suspected something and I asked flat out front if there was another man in the picture. She denied it.
Fast forward to June 2013, now officially a couple, her laptop broke down and I offered to help. After unsuccessfully trying to have it repaired in different shops she agreed. I made a backup of the information, because she’s an amateur photographer and was afraid she would lose her photos, which by the way she offered to show me at some point for critique (I’m an amateur photog as well)
Well, I had this backup with me and remembering about what she told me I started looking at the pictures. And lo and behold, there WAS another guy. Some intern kid from work (23 yrs old- she went Cougar). From a trip to the beach she had gone with him. Him naked in her living room sofa. Miscellaneous candid photos. I decided to confront her about it, knowing full well that at the time she denied being with some other guy while dating me. It was more of a “not tripping on the same stone twice” kind of thing, after what I went through in my divorce.
She didn't deny it. She got very nervous and emotional. She said she had been alone for a long time (no sex for a year prior to dating me, she said), that her previous boyfriends had all cheated on her and she wanted to experience dating two men at once, that she felt very embarrassed when a girlfriend of hers (mutual friend with the OM) found out, that She Was Not Like That®, that she grew uncomfortable as time went on and that she grew tired of the running around and that the kid turned all clingy on her and she felt like a mom with him at the end. She said their thing ended by mid December 2012 because the kid had gone away for vacations and when he came back it was just not the same. She begged me not to leave her and told me that I did not realize the kind of man that I am, meaning that I was the guy of her dreams. That it was a stupid mistake she made back when we were dating casually. That the other guy meant nothing to her. That she was not sure if I only wanted to pump and dump her in the beginning. She seemed really repentant and repulsed by the situation she put us in. As she told me, “I know I fucked up.”
I did not go all nuclear on her because of the same issue: we were an assumed couple but not officially there. I did not turn all beta on her either: I maintained my frame, and told her I had to think about the whole thing and if I wanted to be in a relationship with her. I decided to keep dating her.
I later discovered a journal she kept and there she wrote things about the kid and I found inconsistencies. That there had been contact after the guy came back from the Holidays. That they had put an end to it just before Valentines. She wrote that she felt he was like his little brother yet he was the best lover she’d had. That he broke her heart but that she realized that the guy was a spoiled child and that she needed a Man. The dates align to the time she changed her attitude towards me. Almost everything added up.
I didn’t tell her I had read her journal but the dissonance of what she said to me to what she wrote in there bugs me to this day.
They were not friends on FB but followed each other on Twitter. I asked her to stop following him there and she obliged, easily, no resistance other than saying that they never speak anyways.
Other than this, and after that, she has been the perfect girlfriend from June 2013 when this happened. She has repeatedly told me that she will always be afraid that this mistake of hers will forever haunt us, and eventually tear us apart. I have been laid like tile, 3-4 times a week, sometimes in the span of hours. I am very dominant since then in and out of bed. Throw her around, not ask for permission, pull her hair, spank her, even choke her lightly every so often. We do traditional PiV, rawdog, BJs, oral, anal, public sex… She is very feminine, has an hourglass figure, dresses conservatively. Her family is intact and though she lives alone she is in constant contact with both her parents. She is amazing with my kids, they adore her, as do my friends, parents and siblings. She goes from home to work and if I’m not around she goes to bed by 9pm. She rarely goes out alone, no GNOs, and in the rare event she does go out alone (twice I think in the last year) she runs it by me first. She has said that she is all pro-equality but she does not like to be called feminist, as she dislikes a lot of the connotations. She responds very well to the Cap’n/FO model although I’ve never verbally explained it I apply it and she defers to me without much resistance. She even comes up to me and says stuff like "the weekend is coming... what do YOU want to do?." I've even tacitly been given permission to sleep with other women, so long as it is kept casual and very discreet...
Nonetheless, her bio clock is ticking and she’s expressed desire to have a kid and get married. I don’t object to being married again, wear a band, being called a husband, etc… it’s just that with my previous marriage and subsequent divorce I am very guarded as to the possibility splitting my possessions (again) and I haven’t been able to completely shake off the whole "dating this kid thing" she did back in the day. In my country there is no no-fault divorce and if I marry her with a good prenup, I'm in a better position than shacking up.
What are your thoughts? I’ve spoken to my therapist about this and he says to just let it go. I only talked this out with our mutual friend, the one who introduced us in the first place, he is a very conservative but very pragmatic Catholic man who’s known her for 20-something years and he told me too to let it go, that she was not like that at all. Nevertheless I want to have some red pill input… could you please comment? Thanks in advance and sorry for the long post!
Comments
Do you want more children?
Remember to play!
Do the right thing, whether anyone is watching or not.
Be married, until you are not.
Email address: angeline.greenwood@att.net
Just to get the facts straight, she was screwing around with a young guy for the first three months you were dating and she didn't tell you?
What happened to her previous marriage?
What's that about?
One Hour Call 12-Week Guided MAP
"The turnaround is tremendous. And I'm lifting weights, eating better, and tackling projects. I have all this great energy without a vampire sucking my life force.
He's a lot stronger standing on his own two feet, as well." - Scarlet
I totally missed that. Yikes.
Believe those who are seeking the truth. Doubt those who find it. ~Andre Gide
"If you love someone, set him free; if you have to stalk him, he probably wasn't yours in the first place."
Thanks everybody for your comments.
@Scarlet: I wouldn't mind another child. In fact back when I was married, I always pictured myself with 3 kids. In fact I almost got a vasectomy just before meeting her and backed out at the last minute. And as I said, I would not mind being married again, but in the case of a divorce I don't want to go through the process of having to split my assets again. Especially now that I have my two existing kids to think about. If I ever have another kid, I would get a vasectomy the day after the rugrat is born.
@Angeline: In fact, when she told me She Wasn't Like That®, I answered back, "Hey, look at you, you WERE exactly like that!" to which she stood there, frozen in silence. I did not sleep with anybody else in the beginning but let's say I wasn't closed to the idea. I mean, I didn't, not because I didn't want to, but because there were no good enough opportunities to do so. My behaviour those initial months with her were that of a lover not that of a boyfriend. Her hoping to marry and having a baby is something that has just come up last month. There are weddings and friends getting pregnant all around and that must've sparked something I guess. My take is that in the beginning she saw me as Alpha fux and now I'm more in the Beta bux compartment. FWIW I got laid like tile even before I found out about the whole thing with the other guy, and that hasn't changed much thereafter.
@The_Dude: Yes, she was fooling around with a young guy for the first three months and she didn't tell me. I found out nine months into our relationship and verified that in fact her sleeping with the kid stopped six months prior, even though the guy was still at work. As of June 2013 he is out of the picture, living away in another country (he is originally from abroad.) She has not been married before. From what I can tell (info that her and her friends and family have given me and from what I read in her journal) she had a seven year relationship with her first boyfriend from the end of high school through University and beyond, never moved in with him. After that she was engaged to another guy and lived abroad for some time with the fiancée but she broke off the engagement after finding out of his several, repeated affairs. After that, she returned to our country to live with her parents and got into a depression period that she got out of by going to graduate school at the insistence of her parents. She finished grad school 5 years ago, 3 of which she still lived at her parents house. After grad school she got herself a job and had two or three mini-relationships these 5 years. Two years ago she got herself a house and started living alone. Shortly after that, we met. Her very traditional parents were very strict raising her and kept her on a short leash. In fact, it was a whole mess with her parents when she decided to live abroad with the then-fiancé, and it was very humiliating for her when she had to return to her parents house after she broke the engagement.
@Athol_Kay: when I found out about her fooling around with the other guy, I stated in very clear terms that if she ever fooled around again like she did with this kid, I would walk away and leave her. She agreed to this. I also drew a line and stated that we had two options from then on: either to consciously and expressly decide that we are in a mutual exclusive relationship, or have an open relationship and be honest with each other about our whereabouts. She told me that she didn't want me to be with someone else and that she didn't want anybody else in her life but that after what she had done, she had no moral grounds to impose anything on me. She told me that it was up to me then, on what I wanted to do, but that for her part she did not want to sleep or have a relationship with anybody else. I almost acted on it, as a way of getting back at her, but i didn't. Not that I didn't want to.
KatherineKelly: I understand your points, especially on people moving with the herd. The kid talk we had was just last week, after almost two years together. It came up because I noticed her worrying about where our relationship is going, and that she is not getting any younger and she needs to be with someone at least open to the possibility of another child, one with her of course. About marriage, we have spoken and I have told her that I'm not sure if I want to marry again, which is to say that I'm not sure, not that I'm opposed to the idea. She told me then that she didn't need the rings or the big wedding or being married, but I think in her mind being married is a superior status than being a live-in couple. Understand that in our traditional society living together is not seen in the same light as being married, and I think her traditional upbringing reinforces that. In our country we are not yet up to European or even American standards where living together is "unabashedly normal"...
Thanks again for your comments.
I think you need to honestly assess what you know of her and make a decision. The boyfriend during the first three months is a pretty understandable situation she got herself in. You weren't exclusive. There was no way she could have been open about it and told you. The only thing she could have done better was cut him out the day she met you which is not reasonable to expect.
The open marriage talk seems like it was driven by panic. My wife offered to let me screw other women when her affair got exploded and she was desperate to keep me. She thought it would help even the score. But she didn't really want that and as the panic faded she came to her senses about that.
If you think she is a good women then drop it and move on. If you emotionally can't do that then move on now. Don't go down the road too far if you can't let it go.
how much does a prenup really protect you and has she agreed to that?
@Angeline is bang on with "Actually, she IS like that." Women, especially in conservative societies are good at hiding sexual adventures because of the enormous social cost of being "outed." So the Catholic friends advice is really not worth much, especially as Christianity in general has come to look at women through from a very "Blue Pill" viewpoint.
Think the "other women" thing is panic/hamstering as per the @The_Dude.
The red flag here is that she did not come completely clean about the affair, this may be fear, may be not, you have to judge.
She may feel that she has never really had a chance to have explore her sexuality as a single person so it will be up to you to supply plenty of bedroom dominance and cast a wide next in exploring what she likes in the bedroom (lucky b**tard) through baby stress etc.If you do get married I would throw in the requirement for paternity testing of any babies into a cast iron prenup. By all means trust but verify.
On the other hand if you don't go forward with marriage and a family you need to move on so she can look for another partner, it's the decent thing to do.
Progress not perfection.
Thanks @The_Dude ... I agree with what you say about panic driving the allowing me to sleep around. If push came to shove I don't think she would be so forthcoming about it today. A good prenup would be a good idea since where I live you can pretty much put anything you want in there and in most cases it would still hold up in court. If there is a kid of course I would not be able to dodge that responsibility, nor even want to. I have not brought the prenup thing up yet but her not wanting to sign one would be a deal breaker to me. In any case her and her family have assets too and by her being rather pragmatic, I would say she would go for it, not be thrilled by it but nonetheless go for it. In any case I am not planning on proposing for at least a year so right now I can slowly begin to test the waters
Thanks for your thoughts @try_red_pill, I actually agree on everything you said. I guess it comes down to one huge red flag vs a collection of green flags. I understand and agree with your thoughts on Christianity these days. FWIW, the Catholic friend who gave me advice is a very red pill man to the point where he is constantly labelled as chauvinistic and a mysogynist, so I don't think he was being apologetic of my girlfriend. And besides he's known her for 20 years more than I have ,so his insight was valuable to me.
I may be missing something here. What is the big red flag? I don't see it.
If you were this woman, you were 'dating' a younger guy who wasn't a long term option, and you met Icarus, what would you do? Tell Icarus then? Dump the boy toy day one? Tell him later without prompting?
It's not an affair. Yeah, it stung. I don't see this as any real evidence to her character at all. She minimized it a little when it came out. So what. Everyone panics a little in that situation. Or is dating the younger guy the real problem here?
Either drop the issue entirely or move on. Holding this as some sort of delayed sentencing is a recipe for trouble down the road.
@try_red_pill ; Demanding a paternity test in a prenup for some future may be child is crazy. If she didn't kick you in the balls if you asked for that I'd wonder about her a little.
Delayed sentencing. I had not thought about it that way. I would not want this hanging over my head like this if it was me. Thanks @The_Dude
If you didn't have the exclusivity talk, for all she knows you were spinning her like a plate and she was girl #3 bound to be cast aside on a whim.
I don't see how you can have too much complaint about what your at the time not-girlfriend was doing sexually.
And she is like that. All women are like that if presented with the right combination of factors. As are all men. We're all like that.
It's just that unless you can point to a sign where she cheats in a committed relationship, it's not a huge red flag she hooked up with someone else when you were hooking up with her.
One Hour Call 12-Week Guided MAP
"The turnaround is tremendous. And I'm lifting weights, eating better, and tackling projects. I have all this great energy without a vampire sucking my life force.
He's a lot stronger standing on his own two feet, as well." - Scarlet
Thanks to @Athol_Kay and to everybody who commented.
One thing I noticed early on was that the whole thing stung the way it did because I perceived it as "first my wife cheats on me, then my "girlfriend" "cheats" on me, what the fuck is wrong with me?" pity party.
In fact the start of our relationship may not have happened in the most elegant of circumstances, but at the time everything happened she was neither my girlfriend nor cheating on me.
It hurt the way it did because it stung right in the fresh wound. BTW I explained this to my girlfriend in those same terms and she understood.
OK. Time to let it all go. Let the peace of mind come in. I'm gonna face the future now and let the past go.
Thank you again to all.
That's a very healthy way to process it. She actually sounds pretty cool, to me. Good luck to you!
@icaerus - 100 percent agree that she didn't cheat on you, but what bothers me is that she lied about her involvement with another man when directly questioned. Then, when caught in that lie, she lied about when she ended things with him.
I'm also a little concerned that she wrote in her journal that the best sex of her life was with this 23-year old. You're obviously a much better candidate for marriage and fatherhood, so it just makes me concerned about how she views her sex life with you.
Remember to play!
Do the right thing, whether anyone is watching or not.
Be married, until you are not.
Email address: angeline.greenwood@att.net
She was raised in a culture so conservative that she felt humiliated by having a long-term relationship fail. Of *course* she lied when someone realized she's not such a good girl.
The timing indicates she wrote about him being an amazing lover prior to this relationship getting serious. And of course he was! Just like vacation sex is the best sex for a married couple, having a no-strings-attached fling is going to be thrilling. It doesn't mean that no other sex is excellent, nor does it mean that the OP pales in comparison. She had a fling, realized it was meaningless, and then the relationship with the OP developed into something serious and she was terrified of losing a Very Good Thing. There is no need to castigate this woman.