Infidelity on the part of my wife. Me too... Now what???

goldenboygoldenboy CanadaSilver Member Posts: 7
edited August 2014 in 911 Relationship ER

Hi There. Current status of my marriage - we are in crisis.

Question One – Basic Questions I am 45. My wife 43. Married 11 years. We have two children, a girl and boy, 7 and 9. This is my first marriage, her second. We are both solid 8's, but both of us have improved in the last year or two due to diet and exercise. I'm 6'1" and 190. She is 5'4" and 125. We are both in love with each other. But the marriage has been in decline for several years. The recent discovery of my wife's longstanding affair to someone close to us, has put us in crisis.

Question Two – Rule Out Medical Medical - we both have issues with our bodies - me, mostly disc issues and other joint related. She, mostly joint/muscle - both of us are healthy, just typical issues of those in their 40's that are active. I had a vasectomy a couple of years ago. She was afraid of tubectomy.

Question Three – Rule Out Structural Attraction Issues We live in one of the best neighborhoods in one of the best cities in North America. I have a good career and earn six figures - she has a fitness company and is new and fledgling, so the income is also fledgling at this time. Money is always a concern (homes here average a million dollars), but we are not really different from anyone else here.

Question Four – Rule Out Critical Moments and Neglect Sex and intimacy, closeness, etc. started to decline years ago. After kids all started to decline. My wife had been a stay at home mom for both kids (in Canada, you get a year of modest benefits for paternity and maternity combined). This lasted a couple years, with a short return to work between births. With really several years of only one income, our debt spiralled up, and has put us in a position of a higher mortgage than when we first bought our house about 9 years ago. About three years ago, my wife lost her job due to the organization losing its funding and disbanding. We both knew it was coming for at least a year or two prior to it occurring. I was trying very hard to get her to proactively look for a new job/career during that time - I did not want her to get a letter without a plan. She was struggling with having no real career path - it was a dead end job that gave her flexibility for hours and really quite good pay, and it really helped us with the kids schedules while they went to preschool and then to primary school. So, the company closed and she ended up without a job. I pushed harder for her to pick herself up and find something, but I felt she was not trying hard enough, and I suspected she wished to stay at home as a housewife. We could not afford to do this.

I think she had some resentment to me for pushing her through those times. I felt it was necessary - and I wasn't very hard on her, more encouraging. But I realize now that her self esteem was low at that time so anything I did was seen as more extreme. She went into fitness as a new career path and she really took to it. She got her credentials, and ended up finding a business opportunity. It was a small business that was really just a start up and the woman selling it was moving so needed to try to sell and get some cash out of it. My wife had a hard on for this opportunity. She wanted it so bad she didn't want to look at it any way except emotionally. I really didn't think the business was worth paying for, due to the age and the fact the woman selling was in no position to negotiate (she was moving and had no time to market it for sale). I agreed to finance the purchase, but I wanted my wife first to prove to me that there was potential for it to be profitable. She did no do this - she did not know how, but really just didn't want to jump through a hoop. I wanted her to look at it from a non-emotional standpoint. that was what I wanted. But she didn't. I agreed to pay for it anyway. She has thrown herself in and done very well, with what she had to work with. I've been very proud of her, and have told her so, but she still resents me for not 'supporting' her with this initially. This was the crux of our marriage. More on this in question Eight.

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  • goldenboygoldenboy CanadaSilver Member Posts: 7
    edited August 2014

    Part two: Question Five – Rule Out Outside Sexual Sources Yes - she has had an affair that has lasted until I confronted her with it - over two years. It involved daily texts, texting photos, also videos. Hotel rooms. Regular meet ups for sex. Toys, lingerie, all possible sex acts between two people -wow pretty much everything I could have feared and then some.

    Question Six – When Did the Sex Go Bad? Sex declined for the most part after the kids. But the last few years, she has been pushing me away, and I've been chasing her. I've done all the wrong things - chasing her harder pushes her away, complaining makes it worse. The biggest issue is that she was withdrawing from me and putting her affections to her lover at that time (which I did not know about yet). There was no intimacy, and while sex was good for her (as an act only), there was no closeness and connection. I found myself sounding like the housewife complaining about this. Her only response was to deny it was about anything other than sex for me. That was demeaning and hurtful to me. This all pointed to an affair, but I realize now how easy it is to get confused about your suspicions - I ended up questioning myself rather than her. The signs were there, I just was in denial about it, I realize now.

    Question Seven – What Was the Sex Like at the Start of the Relationship? Sex for us was good. She was inexperienced compared to me when we first got together. She was reciprocal and horny and interested. The reciprocal wen tout the window when the declines started. I was a one man band and it became very mechanical. Her lack of interest in me and especially the lack of caring about my needs was heartbreaking.

    Question Eight – What’s the Elephant in the Room? Continuing on from her purchase of the new business. At this time, we were friendly with some neighbors at our family cottage. We would go there most weekends and hang out together, play watersports on their boat, and be social. I didn't know it at the time, but the husband started making the moves on my wife. The timing was good because of her lowered self esteem, and her resentment towards what she saw as non-support from me. The horror for me was that she responded, and did so with really no hesitation, and they slept together the very first time they got together, at a hotel. I had suspicions but not until the following summer. She was taking him to the gym and giving him 'personal training'. I thought that he was sweet on her and I indicated this to her. she assured me there was nothing to worry about, of course. What a sucker I was. The thing was I trusted her- I just didn't trust him, and I was aware how easily these things can turn into affairs.

    Over two years later, and my suspicions continued to spiral upwards. I'd approached her a few times on this, each time being assured it was all in my head. I put some limits - they were not to go to the gym, and she complied. I had no idea they were getting together regularly, mostly when I was travelling for work. I finally got the proof I needed to confirm my suspicions this summer, after an awful lot of effort. Of course, I'm destroyed; their relationship was far more involved than I every would have feared. I had my 'D Day' with her last Saturday, and with quite a bit of antagonizing, I managed to get a full confession out of her. She told him, and he immediately came clean with his wife (they have two children aged 16 and 20).

    This has all been beyond description to me. She has apologized and been very good at staying here and claiming to want to make this work. I very much want to get over it as well, if I can, though I'm in the mire of it now and every hour has me going through different emotions. The elephant: I have had two affairs on her. Both were one time events. Both sucked. Both were wrong. Neither were ongoing. Neither were emotional. The first one was around the time our sex had declined. I sent her to her parents in Mexico with the children when our second was a newborn. I was lonely, and was jealous she was up to something down there. I just had a feeling. I think it was in my head - a result of feeling rejected by her, though she likely doesn't remember the rejections I was experiencing at the time (refusing kisses, pulling out of my arms, etc.). There was a co-worker in town for a business event, and I had no idea she had eyes on me. It happened. Then it was over. We talked about it. She came clean with her husband, and they got counselling. Lucky, they are happily married with a kid many years later. I resolved never to tell my wife. I felt so bad about it and wanted to tell her, but figured all I would do is unload my weights from my back and put them on hers. it was never going to happen again. or so I thought.

    Fast forward to last year. Our marriage is a joke. We continue to get along, as long as I don't ask for intimacy, sex, or the like. We are doing well by the kids, and any outward appearances to friends, etc. But, things are a mess. I am lonely all the time, and I confess this to her. She says she feels the same. What I didn't know was that she gave herself to this other man for years by now - of course I was lonely even in the same room. I was at another conference, and a woman was coming on to me. I thought it was harmless, but of course it wasn't. I was lonely, so very lonely. And I ended up in her room. Mostly, I complained about my problems at home, and this almost stranger to me listened, and held me while I cried like a baby. But still, we did have sex. And like the other time, it was lousy. Coincidentally, my wife was with her lover at this same time, back at home. I reached out to her that week, hoping to find some resolve to do the right thing, but I was let down. No wonder - she was getting busy on her own. What a mess. So here we are - I am a mess, she is a mess. I decided today to come clean - it's not fair for her to feel all this remorse, when I have also been unfaithful, albeit in my opinion much less so. I am responsible for my actions - I will not deny this. But she gave her heart and made all sorts of attempts to continue on in her affair than I did. I guess as much of an asshole as I am, I have some dignity left, not sure. Her affair is over - I am sure of that. I am sure she wanted a way out and now it is upon us. My affairs were over before they started, and now she knows about everything. I was afraid to tell her now - that it might make her lose her regret. But I didn't want to play a game with her heart. We are both so hurt now.

  • goldenboygoldenboy CanadaSilver Member Posts: 7
    edited August 2014

    Part three: Question Nine – Who is the Leader in your Marriage? For the most part, I am the leader. I make most financial decisions on my own. I pay the bills. I am mostly in charge with the kids with regard to punishment, etc. But, she has had my balls in her purse for some time as well. She does not admit to seeing it this way, but I have definitely always been a pleaser. Reading the Primer has confirmed to me that I have stopped being the man in the relationship, and I fear this is what has contributed to the loss of interest from her and my subsequent chasing her away.

    Question Ten – Tell Us About the Good Times Good times - well, we've had many. Most were when we were friends, before marriage. But we both have good families and we've had lots of good times as a couple, and as parents. I still love her, and I believe she loves me, though all this news is likely to destroy us. I think our marriage went south when we had to put more effort on the kids and work than on us as a couple. We did recognize this, and started planning dates, and talking, and I recently started on the MAP, but all this was when she was in a full blown affair - talk about a non starter. This is an ongoing story. Thank you for reading. I am grateful for any guidance and support as we go through this.

  • The_DudeThe_Dude Hollywood Star LanesGold Men Posts: 4,583

    I'm sorry to hear this.  It's a killer.  Let's start with the immediate issues.

    You are most likely in serious grief and trauma.  You need to actively work on alleviating the worst effects of that.  How are you sleeping?  Are you eating?  Force yourself to drink enough liquids.  Stay away from booze.  How is your mental state? Do you think you're thinking clearly?  If you don't get sleep and get your mental state calm, you won't make good decisions.  Think of yourself as an accident victim staggering away from the scene.  Make sure your brain is working.

    "Her affair is over - I am sure of that. I am sure she wanted a way out and now it is upon us."

    If you can, add detail here.  These things are much harder to stop than you may realize.  You need to make sure you cover all your bases.  Unless you've been reading the 911 threads for months don't trust yourself to know all the angles here.  Even if she is completely remorseful and sincere, you need to make sure you've cut this off properly.  Affairs have a really nasty habit of rising from the dead.

    ScarletCartB4HorseCowboy
  • soa2005soa2005 United statesSilver Member Posts: 631

    @goldenboy‌ ;

    You both fucked up and you're both hurting. Now what? It sounds like you both came clean and are remorseful. The following steps may help. 

    1. Both of you become completely transparent and accountable. Open up all communication devices and passwords. Account for your time away from each other and verify. No exceptions. 

    2. You speak to the other mans wife and verify that she is aware of the situation. 

    3. You and your wife draft a no contact letter or email and send it to the OM. 

    4. Set consequences in the event your wife contacts the OM. 

    Right now the wounds may be too fresh but at some point it would be ideal to have a real heart to heart with your wife. You listed some moments of neglect but there may instances you are unaware of. When this discussion takes place you should both discuss any resent you harbor towards each other. I had the "resentful " discussion with my wife probably 2 months after dday. This discussion didn't necessarily stop the pain but it did help us rebuild our foundation. 

    ScarletAngelineAlecto
  • WillThisWorkWillThisWork North Carolina Silver Member Posts: 98
    edited August 2014
    I feel pretty concerned reading this because in your triage you state that you and your wife are in love with each other.  I'm sorry, but I do not think that a woman just out of a two year, intense affair sounds like she is in love with her husband.  I state this so bluntly only because it sounds to me like you are projecting your own feelings onto her, and that is something you're going to have to stop doing if you want to have hope of turning this around.  

    The people on this board give excellent advice regarding permanently stopping affairs, so I am going to yield to them regarding your immediate next steps.  

    I just want to reiterate again the importance of your COMPLETELY REMOVING ROSE COLORED GLASSES, about all things related to your wife and this relationship.  I know it hurts, but please don't slide back into the comfort of self-delusion; it will continue to sabotage your relationship and your life.  The bitter truth is your friend.

    I am very sorry that you are going through this.  I think you will get good support here, and of course even more so on a coaching call should you choose to do that. 


    SunDancefordsvt
  • The_DudeThe_Dude Hollywood Star LanesGold Men Posts: 4,583
    @WillThisWork‌  Actually you can't assume that at all.  Many people involved in affairs are still in love with their spouse.  Not always but it is not at all uncommon.
    ScarletSavagesoa2005HildaCorners
  • ScarletScarlet Category Moderator** Posts: 7,542

    According to the aforementioned book by Shirley Glass, affairs are primarily the result of poor boundaries, not always the result of a poor marriage.  I don't know if that's accurate or not, but we cannot assume lack of love. 

    Speak your truth. 
    CowboyCarrotcake
  • WillThisWorkWillThisWork North Carolina Silver Member Posts: 98
    edited August 2014

    Do you think women who are actively avoiding all kinds of physical intimacy with their husbands can be classified as "in love?"  I am not saying that I do not think there is hope to revive loving feelings or that the loving feelings aren't possibly dormant in a sense. Anyway, this is probably distracting to the thread so I won't continue on this line of conversation. 

    Nevertheless, goldenboy‌ mentioned failing to see/truly acknowledge the red flags of his wife's early affair, and I still do encourage him to be wary of rose colored glasses; he can't afford them now. 


  • goldenboygoldenboy CanadaSilver Member Posts: 7

    Hi all. Wow than you so much for all the responses. I didn't expect much but am new to the site. 


    On the question if how sure I am about it being over: he told his wife. And I met with her shortly after. My wife agreed to call him to say it is over. But he won't take her calls. I believe this is because his wife demanded he not take calls from her. 


    I have agreed to do the same with the woman I was with. She no longer works for my company and there is really no reason for us to continue to communicate. I have no feelings for her. And I'm happy to comply. 

    About my belief that my wife still loves me. I suppose I might be wrong. She said she does. She said she wants to make it work. Of course, trust is an issue now and part of me wonders if she just doesn't want to lose this comfy safe life we have together. That's not the same as love, I agree. But how am I to know?

    Today, with the roller coaster of emotions that is my new life, I got mad at her. Trying to be the good husband and supporting her as we get ready for couples therapy. I began to realize I still haven't gotten to anger yet. And I'm really angry. 


    I'm also pissed that I no longer have the 'right' to be angry with her, because I strayed as well. 

    We argued and now she's sped away in her car and it's late at night. 

    What to do...

  • Frank_LondonFrank_London in transitSilver Member Posts: 1,853

    Do you think women who are actively avoiding all kinds of physical intimacy with their husbands can be classified as "in love?" 

    A couple that have been married several years are typically not going to have the same feelings of passion and in-love-ness that a new couple do.

    It's counterproductive to over-analyze whether she is "in love" or not "in love" or whatever. It's an unanswerable question - there may be no right answer - and whatever the answer is, will be heavily driven by her hamster anyway.

    The question is whether goldenboy wants to stay married and continue to live and have sex with her as a husband and wife; and if so, how to make that happen.

    ScarletReborn
  • Frank_LondonFrank_London in transitSilver Member Posts: 1,853
    edited August 2014
    goldenboy said:
    We argued and now she's sped away in her car and it's late at night. 

    What to do...

    Less is more. In these situations when the husband starts texting and calling and begins late night arguments.... none of that stuff can help (usually). 

    Do nothing right now. Go get some sleep. Don't check up on her.

  • The_DudeThe_Dude Hollywood Star LanesGold Men Posts: 4,583

    Go look up the stages of grief.  You're going to go through them several times.  So is she.  You both have to expect these emotions are going to roll over you and learn to deal with it for the next couple of months.  Try not to say anything so damaging you can't recover from it later.  If you feel that level of anger coming on (and you will) separate yourself from her.  I had to have a temporary exit plan locked and loaded for many weeks at least.

    DodScarlet
  • The_DudeThe_Dude Hollywood Star LanesGold Men Posts: 4,583

    as @soa2005‌ wrote above, you both need to open up your communications devices and accounts to each other.  Right now the number one issue is trust.  You can use this fucked up situation to reset reset your relationship.  There is a window of opportunity to stop hiding from each other and be completely transparent.  You both just admitted about the worst possible flaws, get everything else out there and accept each other as you really are.  You won't get this chance a second time.

    BlackwulfJellyBeanScarlet
  • The_DudeThe_Dude Hollywood Star LanesGold Men Posts: 4,583

    Honestly, if you two can keep from tearing each other throats out for the next few weeks, I think you have a better shot at rebuilding your marriage than many of the cases I've seen here.  It looks worse on the surface but you have a couple of the critical pieces that often aren't there.  Be smart.

    JellyBeanAngelineScarlet
  • EdgeEdge FloridaSilver Member Posts: 158

    @goldenboy I'm not saying you shouldn't have told her about your affairs, because, really, your whole marriage (if it is to survive) is going to require a major reboot.  One thing that's likely to gnaw at the marriage is whether what you did (two one-night-stands after being routinely rejected by your wife) is equal to what she did (abandoning her husband sexually and emotionally and, in effect, taking on a new "husband" for two years, giving all her intimacy to him).  

    This may be a double-standard, but for centuries, the common "wisdom" of humanity is that men will find sex elsewhere when their wives reject them.  This has happened since the dawn of man / exclusive relationships.  What your wife did is so much worse (IMO).  As such, you have the right to take the helm here and still have a bit of self-righteous anger; she is at your mercy.  

    I guess it's neither here nor there, similar to the "Is she in love?" question.  From what you've written, I'd say the marriage is totally fixable and both of you can live long, happy lives together.  Marriages have survived worse.  But, it has to be something you both want and are willing to commit to (personally, I would feel so betrayed and I have so many other options, that I'd likely move on because I could never really trust my own wife not to stray again).  

    If you're new to the whole "red pill" thing, it might be a very eye-opening process and your whole relationship is likely to be better and stronger after you make it through the storm.  MMSLP is a great start, and there are other good books and websites that will slowly transform your mind -- like many here, I've had a profound Renaissance (a "rebirth") through this and other sources.  One of the main things that has helped me is to not view marriage as 50/50.  I simply don't worry whether or not my wife is (a) putting in as much effort in the relationship, (b) being as good of a mother as I am a father, (c) being as good of a wife as I am a husband, (d) working as hard around the house, (e) initiating sex or trying to add romance to the relationship.  I just do my thing and assume, as a woman, she just can't possibly keep up with me (yes, the red pill has made me a bit of a "sexist," as they say).  It's liberating, for sure, and has helped me achieve things personally more than I ever could in my old mindset.  

    In your case, the image of "Captain" from the book is most appropriate.  From here on, stop trying to be reactive to what she says or does.  You're decisive and active.  You set the course, you get things done, you make things happen, you ultimately decide the fate of the ship.  Imagine that you're in charge and she's simply the first officer (who has wronged you grievously, no less).  

    Another thing that helped me is to imagine the kind of person I would want to be if my wife died and I was trying to attract a new wife, then work on becoming that person  -- I was being held back so much by her opinions (e.g. "I don't like muscles or when men's veins show," or "I don't like guns" or whatever).  Then, I separated myself from what she seemed to want me to be, and am working on becoming what I want to be.  And, voila, she actually seems to like the new me much better, she just couldn't picture it at the time.  

    Anyway, hang in there, brother.  I'm glad you read MMSLP and hopefully you can slowly assimilate it into your life (and, BTW, do NOT tell her about the book, please, you've said enough).  

    Bonus: Maybe consider selling the house and living a much more simple life.  Being tied down by a mansion (and all the work and money required to keep it up) is a woman's vision of the "good life."  Living simple and with less debt is a man's vision.  (Again, sexist, but true?).  

    My MAP Favorite Books: MMSLP by Athol Kay, Bigger Leaner Stronger by Michael Matthews, The Rational Male by Rollo Tomassi, Alcohol Lied to Me by Craig Beck, The 48 Laws of Power by Robert Greene, Awakening to the Sacred by Lama Surya Das

    WillThisWorkSunDanceReborn
  • soa2005soa2005 United statesSilver Member Posts: 631

    @goldenboy‌ ;

     Before we get into anything else do not have your wife call the OM on the phone. There is no reason for your wife to ever speak with this man again.  Draft a no contact letter with your wife and send it through the mail. It doesn't have to be long or filled with details. Simply state that from this point forward the OM is to never contact your wife again. You need to be part of the no contact agreement because it is an important proactive step that will help your grieving process. This is also a leadership moment for you. 

    Emotions are raw right now and you're both going to be angry, sad, mad etc.. Even if you didn't stray I'm sure your wife would have a laundry list of complaints towards you. Your wife is solely responsible for cheating on you but you need to figure out what led her to it. This same thing applies to you. You are solely responsible for your one night stands but she needs to understand what led you there. If your marriage counselor is decent then he/she will be a big help in helping you two figure out what needs to change. 

    The trust issue may never go away for you. It's been over a year since my dday. My life, including my marriage, is better than it has ever been. My wife does not display any behaviors of a cheating   spouse. Do I trust her completely? Fuck no and I never will. Trust but verify is a term that gets thrown around this forum. I show my wife trust, but since our new policy is transparency and open communication devices , I can always verify. 

    This is an opportunity for a fresh start. As much as it sucks right now there is no reason you two can't rebuild a stronger and more enjoyable marriage. In the coming days your bad days will probably outnumber your good days. Start mapping and your good days will eventually outnumber your bad days.

    I am in no way downplaying your shitty situation. Many of have been in your shoes. I'm just letting you know that it definitely gets better. 

  • goldenboygoldenboy CanadaSilver Member Posts: 7
    Thanks soa2005. The rollercoaster ride is definitely in full swing. I was good on Saturday, a disaster on Sunday, and Monday is shaping up to be a shitty day. At least I've knocked a couple more days off. We have a counsellor appt. tomorrow.
  • RebornReborn LondonGold Men Posts: 2,987
    Any news? 
    Enneagram type 5 w6. 
    If I offer lots of advice, it's probably really me giving advice to myself. That always seems to happen. 
  • goldenboygoldenboy CanadaSilver Member Posts: 7
    Hi all. I figured it's way past due for an update. Here is the scoop and then I'd like some advice please. 

    Weve been in counseling. Gone three times together and once each on our own. First I realize that the issue with me being a pursuer and her being a distancer is in full swing. It's really been the problem for years and now I see clearly how bad it's been. I see that it makes me unnatractive to her. Also I see I won't be able to get her to understand that she needs to be receptive to me. I have to run the MAP. Funny thing is I started mapping before I got confirmation of the affairs and I did see some results. Which is interesting considering she was addicted to another man at the time. 

    So she is getting over her affair partner. Isn't this fun. She doesn't want to say it to me in so many words but I know she's been researching her feelings on the Internet. 

    Weve had some dates and I've been more alpha on them. And we've been together a couple of times. But now about four weeks in I realize I'm not at all ready to deal with this. I don't know if I'll ever be able to forgive her. I've learned so many details (which i demanded to know) that are just too much to handle. I thought I could deal with it but I think the shock has worn off and now I don't know if I'll be able to get over it. 

    The thing is we have kids. Otherwise I would kick her out. Sell the house. And start over. Of course I think I still lover her.  And she claims to love me and says she is committed to me. She has done all the things I've demanded. 

    The question is this. Should I be starting to MAP now?  I really am not in a good space emotionally to pull it off. I want to be distant. But I have started traveling for work again and I think I should be checking up. 

    Maybe I need to take some weeks before I'm ready to start to MAP. But losing time might not be good either considering she is going through withdrawals. 

    What do you think?
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