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My TRIAGE. I started a similar MMSL program about 2 yrs ago, and found MMSL about 3 months ago.
1: BASIC Me: 40M muscular build, trim (80kg), educated, engineer, told I'm cute - SR8?
Her: 40F a little overweight but not much (AUS size 14, 80kg), D cup, intellegent, school teacher - SR7?
Married for 15yrs, 3 kids (11,8,5).
2: HEALTH Me: All OK. (Although I had a dominant mother so I'm a natural beta/approver)
Her: Suffers depression and diagnosed with PTSD - lots of anxieties with an abusive father. Has seen a psych for past 8 yrs. Direct/overt sexual attention triggers past stuff. Able to orgasm 99% of the time but finds sex very intimidating/vulnerable so needs to be "in the right mood" and normally has to "de-stress" afterwards for 1-3hrs before being able to sleep.
3: STRUCTURAL nil
4: NEGLECT: 2yrs ago I crashed hard. I tried to start an affair online - but I never even found a prospective partner. A week after "starting" I came to my senses and stopped it all. I started MAPPING (under a different program). A few months later she found out about the almost affair. She also found out that I had been viewing porn the entire marriage even though I told her I didn't. (Which I also stopped when I started mapping).
We've always done well financially - never a problem - and I've always managed the money. But a year ago we made the decision together to move home for "lifestyle". It cost us $60k and we suddenly had to actually budget and watch what we spent. That was a shock and it triggered her memory of growing up poor. We are still in that period. We meet bills, and are paying off our home, and still eat out 1/week - but I think she misses being able to be more care free.
5: OTHER PEOPLE. No. This would be completely out of her zone and I've seen nothing to suggest it.
6: 7: SEX. It's never really been bad! I just want more... We've probably averaged 2/wk for the marriage - but mostly vanilla, lights off. When she found out about the almost affair it was daily for about 3 months, and for the past 2yrs it's been about 2-3/wk (with a bit more variety and occasional lingerie!). (It was every 7-10days for a few months after we moved house and had money issues, but has since gone back to 2-3/wk).
I know I'm in a MUCH better situation that most people on this forum. For that I am thankful. 2yrs ago I realised just how much value and self worth I placed on sex and i started mapping to improve my own self esteem and reduce my 'reliance' on sex and her approval. That's my main goal. I can see how much of myself I've lost over the years, how BETA I've become, and how much I live in her frame. So I want to return to being the man she married (confident, happy, ATTRACTIVE). But I'd still love more affection from her - it seems like she'll only give me affection (kissing, intimacy, petting) when she's in the 'sex' mood.
8: ELEPHANT. The almost affair and the porn - I fucked up. She held me in high regard and I destroyed the trust she had in me. It's been 2yrs and I'm still nowhere near her trusting me again.
9: LEADERSHIP. She is/was definitely the leader. I fit the long term pussified husband well. I have let my hobbies and friends go. I defer to her judgement all the time. I try to keep her "happy" and I valued her opinion over mine. But all that is changing! In the last 2 yrs I have taken up old hobbies again. I am being more decisive in the home, with children, and starting to voice my wants more. I see good signs from her - she regularly asks me now to choose little things (dinner option 1 or 2). But this also is hampered by her past - she often expresses her opinion/wants in a subtle way and if I miss it she feels like I haven't 'listened' to her. I have to be VERY careful not to be the overbearing/dominant husband or she will slip into the abused wife/child role. This comes out in sex as well - any OVERT sex references or 'entitlement/chauvinistic' behavior will push her away.
10: GOOD TIMES. Honestly I think the marriage has been constant - it's been good - better than most - we respect each other - but I'm unhappy with who I've become and what I've allowed. Pre-kids was about the same as now. She has referred to our "perfect" marriage prior to my almost-affair - but I think that is her rose-glasses hamster talking.
Comments
Welcome to MMSL! Thank you for starting out with a solid triage. Do you have "The Mindful Attraction Plan" book? It would be a great place to start.
I have Mindful Attraction Plan and the Married Man Primer.
Excellent! What are three things you can work on this week?
Where is the list of areas for green/yellow/red?
For me: I think I've gone "too alpha". Wife sees changes in me and is quite worried about them. I need to "build relationship comfort" while maintaining frame.
(I'm actively not hovering anymore but I don't know what to do instead!)
One area of concern is finding a hobby for night time (I don't have one!)
The areas are in the MAP book.
How's your workout regime? Your diet?
Just about any activity in the evening is fine. Even as sedate as reading. Starting board games with the kids is another good thing to do.
But either way, she feels annoyed. And I accept that she genuinely feels annoyed. Whether or not I agree with why she feels annoyed - she still feels annoyed. In the past, I assumed that if she says what I did was wrong, then what i did must have been wrong! And I apologised like crazy and sucked back up to her.
But now I'm seeing that most things I do are not wrong. She may not like what I do, or may assume things about what I do that causes her to feel annoyed, but my actions are not wrong. So I'm no longer apologising for what I do. I will apologise for how she's feeling, or try to agree/empathise with her, but I didn't do anything wrong so I'm here to provide support - not ask for forgiveness.
But she's still annoyed. Part of me wants to support her - comfort her - listen and console (like a good girlfriend!) but the other part of me wants to say "you're so touchy - you made yourself annoyed by assuming the worst reason for what I did rather than presuming the best reason - so toughen up princess".
One is beta-supportive, the other is dismissive and not being sucked into her craziness. How do I know when each is appropriate? Just because *I* think that she's over-reacting - is she? As much as I want her to change her triggers - she really is feeling bad and wants comfort. I try to comfort without accepting blame but that doesn't work either. I read a lot that in these situations I should just say some witty remark and walk away (letting her stew) but that doesn't feel like a loving husband.
Thoughts?
If she's projecting that frame onto you, i.e. being annoyed with you, then that is her method of establishing dominance over you. She is annoyed with you, you take action to alleviate that.
If she's annoyed in general, then enjoy the show. You need to switch your outlook from that of the fixer to that of the observer:
If she's constantly annoyed with you, then odds are she's realized, consciously or unconsciously that displaying her annoyance with you is an effective controlling tactic.
If her behavior is a controlling tactic, then you need to establish your boundaries, when is her behavior acceptable and when is it unacceptable. Then you need to enforce those boundaries with her.
But I'm essentially saying to her that her feelings are not valid. Which is true and not true. I try to be the observer - to have the perspective of "wow - your brain is funny - it's made you feel annoyed because why?" but that's not supportive. She wants support - or does she? It's the whole balance. How do I know when I actually did something wrong and I need to apologise verses she's crazy? And if I don't support her - if I be just the observer - she walks away feeling unsupported and un-loved - how does that help our relationship?
To clarify: I will say "I'm sorry you are feeling X"
Report back in a week.
Remember to play!
Do the right thing, whether anyone is watching or not.
Be married, until you are not.
Email address: angeline.greenwood@att.net
*feels*, logical or not. Telling her that her feelings are invalid wont get you anywhere productive and is just likely to make her feel more annoyed. You can set boundaries on her behavior, but you can't insist that she feel or not feel a certain way.
Do you have any specific examples? The whole thing is a bit vague to me.
So, if she's annoyed at the world in general, not at anything you specifically did, agree with her that the world sucks, and ask her which would be a better way of destroying the world: nukes or Justin Bieber clones?
The idea is to get her laughing about things she can't fix.
This won't work if she's annoyed at you, or at some other specific thing. If it's at you, the all-purpose "you've given me a lot to think about" might help. If it's at something else, ask her if she's just venting or needs real advice. She's probably venting ... if your frame is solid, tell her she has 3 minutes to vent, then get out your timepiece.
A great solution if she's just venting is to echo her, in a kind way (no sarcastic parroting). For example "I don't know what to do about my sister's BSC husband" "Is he being annoying again?" "Yes, he gave me one of *those* looks today." "One of *those* looks?" "Yes, you know when he ..." Again, cut the discussion after a couple minutes. "Enough venting, time for us to focus on good stuff now."
There are lots of women who think venting like this is meaningful conversation.
Enneagram 5w4. I'm researching what that means, before designing t-shirt art about it.
"I feel no shame in making lavish use of the strongest muscles, namely male ones (but my own strongest muscle is dedicated to the service of men - noblesse oblige). I don't begrudge men one whit of their natural advantages as long as they respect mine. I am not an unhappy pseudomale; I am female and like it that way." RAH
Bob314 said: She's placing 'responsibility' for her feelings and actions upon you. She's free to act however she wants, and if bad things happen, then it's your fault.
Not good.
You use your own internal filter to assess your actions, not her filter. You also need to define what constitutes 'wrong.' Her definition is probably different than yours, but yours is the one that you're going to using to judge your actions.
It's not all or nothing, you can provide support, but at the same time refuse to be taken advantage of.
That's binary thinking. Accept all or reject all.
Try this:
- Acknowledge what she just said, using 'feel' language. "I'm hearing what you're saying. You feel that I ruined your entire day because I didn't stack the dishwasher correctly."
- Follow it up with something short and non-commital: "Wow" or "That's certainly something" or "Hmmmmmm" or "There a lot going on right there"
- Nod sagely
That's the beauty and the deadly-effectiveness of an emotional argument, any bat-shit insane statement is true, if it begins with "I feel."Reason, logic, and facts all go down in flames before an emotional argument. Because the only person capable of verifying how the person making those emotional arguments truly feels is the person making those statements.
So you can respond by:
2. STFU.
Let her work out whatever is bothering her. When you feel like you need to "fix it" go to the gym. You sound like you have a few Nice Guy issues here. (Ask me how I know.)
Put back on course via a 'One Hour Call' with Athol. Seriously worth 10 times the cost, but don't tell him that....
“Between stimulus and response, there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom.” - Victor Frankl
Actually you can choose to do neither. You can validate her feelings by just listening. Feelings are not always right or wrong.
One of the most difficult things I've learned is that women just want to bitch sometimes. They don't always want us to solve their problems, sometimes they just want to vent.
The difficult part is figuring out the difference between normal woman venting vs valid complaints. Can you give us some examples of her being annoyed with you?