Bob314 Triage

Truman

Scarlet said:

You are not obligated to empathize with crazy.  Really.  You're not.

I mean honestly, who cares if she's upset over a band-aid left in the shower?  Go ahead and roll your eyes and walk away.  It's a non-issue and you don't have to pretend it's a big deal just because she has these ridiculous over the top feelings. 

And be subjected to the silent treatment for at least 24hrs? (Yes, I've experienced similar)

Betterman

Don't be afraid of the silent treatment.  It takes a lot of determination but breaking through that is essential.  Think about the silent treatment as a manipulative technique.  They do it because IT WORKS.  It causes you to fear your wife's anger.  Fix the cause where necessary, but continue going about your day being awesome.  I once went 6 days before she suddenly switched to being lovely.  Repeat six or seven times and the STs eventually stop.

But seriously, dude, pick up your own band aids. That's not cool.  Wipe up crumbs after you make sandwiches.  It's part of the job.

Part of being awesome is being fully functioning human being and not leaving shit laying around for others to clean up.

RebuildingHusband

I miss the silent treatment. The skills I've learned here have robbed me of those precious moments!

Betterman

OK, just went back and read your whole thread @Bob314.

You've been here 5 months, and been getting 911 advice over that time.  I would suggest you go back to the start of this thread and re-read it in its entirety.  A few things still stick out for me:

1.   Have you addressed your wife's mental health.  you mentioned prior sexual abuse, but this still will be impacting.  What help is she getting, or willing to get.  Have you stepped up to arrange anything?  It is hard to get past medical/mental health/ trauma even with the best MAP in the world.

2.   Your first post discusses your "attempted affair", which she later discovered.  Has this been discussed, or rug swept on your part.  Have you provided a sincere apology, and have you been providing demonstrable trust building good beta?

3.   The fear of the silent treatment and pages of posts where you are visibly living in her frame suggest you need to undertake re-read NMMNG and actually do the exercises.  Also, find a local support group?  (Where in Australia are you - big smoke, or bush?)

4.  Points I think apply from my own failures and experience:

a.  STFU - you keep getting drawn into trying to explain things to her.  It never worked for me.   Initially I went too-Alpha in my STFU which caused an emotional disconnect, however I think that is no bad thing as it stopped being drawn in so much, and set the stage that I would not get drawn into arguments in her frame.  I have no added back in more good beta and will emote with her when needed, boo the bad guys and "Connect", but she knows now I am willing to state my case or state my expectations and not get drawn into any bullshit, else i STFU and get on with my day and fuck her pissy attitude if needed.  Guess what? STFU is needed less and less these days.

b.  Deep emotion.  read this by Athol: http://marriedmansexlife.com/2014/03/violence-deep-emotion-and-rational-talk/
I fell for this every time.  My wife "felt" something, and wanted to make it my fault.  She starts an argument using rational statements, but no matter how I argued rationally, she kept pecking and pecking.  in the past I gave up and said sorry.  After I started MAPing I was less afraid of upsetting her so kept arguing.  She then used the Deep Emotion trump card.  Athol says "Rational Talk is completely useless in getting what you want from people prepared to use Violence or Deep Emotion." and "The key is not play into their emotional state, quitting the conversation completely if you must, and pointedly fail to give them what they want. You make the Deep Emotion approach a losing strategy."

c.  Mind reading.  I was guilt of mind reading her intentions behind what she says.  When I "assumed a positive intent" and stopped mind reading my days got a whole lot better. | I looks like you do this too.

d.  The MAP is about me not her.  This was the hardest lesson for me to learn, and for others here as well.  Its easy to focus on HER actions.  Breaking my wife goggles was great - she is not THE ONE, the perfect snowflake.....but equally neither am I.  If it works out with her that's cool, but if not I have to be the best version of me that I can.  To do that, I have to be a fully functioning adult (no lazy bear traits), I have to improve myself and focus on what I do.   At the end of he day, my wife's bad behaviors were MY RESPONSIBILITY because I tolerated them or enabled them.  Bad Captaining = poor FO behaviors.  The MAP is about me not her.

NOt sure if any of this helps, but wante dto give something more meaningful than the Silent Treatment feedback.

Betterman

Oh, and I forgot...
The sooner you can picture her in your head as the biggest teenager in the house, the sooner, and better, you get your frame right.  My eldest daughter is just starting to get hormones, is giving attitude and "the look" back.  I heard her and my wife starting up an argument this morning and it sounded JUST like two kids fighting.  I simply yelled from the other room "Knock it off you two" and it stopped.  I think wife knew she was being childish and was sheepish thereafter.  I see it all the time now when she is getting emotional.  Stop trying to over analyse stuff, just accept women react differently, and stay in YOUR frame.  Man pages of your posts are deep analysis and stuff you have read her there and everywhere.  Be the man, be the rock, let her emotional shit just crash against your stability.

Bob314

thanks again all. 

I'm not sure where the line is of being supportive, hearing her emotion, vs shutting her down, calling her childish, walking away. At the moment I listen, try to empathise without talking rationally, but try to stay in my frame, but I never tell her "whatever" or "grow up" or roll my eyes. I can see that someone might look at me and say I was "catering" to her emotion/anxiety/feelings, but where is the line between that and "good beta"?

I am still researching getting her profesional help. She current is seeing someone, but I think he's shit and I'm not sure the best way to get someone different. I am working on a plan at the moment so we'll see in a few weeks.

She was annoyed last night because I went out and came home later than she thought I would (we hadn't agreed on a time - she had something in mind that she didn't tell me). I didn't buy into her arguement. But all day today she's been very affectionate - so maybe I'm starting to stay in frame.

446

Date night: she doesn't want to go out, take the progeny and go have a blast.  Post pictures on Facebook. 

If she she goes and can't have fun, have fun around her. You can empathize, "I see that this is difficult for you." If she starts acting badly, take her home.

Teaching is stressful.  I know. You have to find ways to deal with it. Last year, I had several psychotic students, literally. My family got really tired of hearing about it.  You have to find a way to deal.

Bob314

Things are definitely changing (compared to 1yr ago). She's still annoyed with me alot, but I don't bite. She seems to get over it more quickly these days. And she's responding well to my initiations. It's almost  like she's giving up saying anything to me because she knows I don't care.

Bob314

My wife is VERY busy at work, constantly run off her feet all day. She works hard and is very good at what she does. Her role (school counseller) is fairly undefined - she has decided what she'll take on board - and I think it's currently everything. Certainly her predecessor didn't do half as much as what my wife does.

She complains every day about not having any time to pee, no time to eat, no time to do anything. She comes home exhausted. But when she comes home, I've cooked, I've cleaned, I've done washing. So she just sits in front of the TV. No hobby. No exercise. I have told her that her down time is good - but it's neutral - and perhaps she needs something positive instead of neutral.

But she's also applied to study this year. She's having trouble with the application and proving appropriate work evidence. She's put in a few phone calls to the uni but hasn't been able to talk to anyone because she has zero time during the day.

She blamed ME for that tonight. Said that I should be doing the application for her. I asked "would you like me to help?". She said she shouldn't have to ask me - I should see how overwhelmed she is and just take it over for her. She said she was frustrated whenever I say my day is boring/easy because hers SOOOOO isn't. (She assumes that because I don't complain that I have no work pressures). She told me I didn't understand just how difficult her day was or I wouldn't be asking her to "have to think at 9pm".

She then justified why she "had" to do more than her predesesssor.

I understand that she is frustrated. I understand that she is allowing herself to be a "victim" to her high workload - to justify her doing nothing at night - to justify her not having hobbies. She has the "martyr" personality.

So I just listened. Didn't retort or get offended at her blaming me. Agreed that she works very hard. Agreed that her day is very busy.

But how do I nicely say:

   - she has to choose where her priorities are

   - she doesn't have to work so hard - the only person telling her to is herself 

   - she has to say no to some things

We are married - so her problems are my problems - but where is the line? SHOULD I just take over? To me that's bailing her out. And it sends the message that her time is more important that mine. I think she needs to know her own limits and not expect that she can steal my time as well. She OFTEN brings home work issues, reports etc that she requires my help with. If she asks I will assist - but really it's HER problem. I am busy too. I work all day, then pick up the kids, cook, clean, maintain the house, manage finances, I'm organising my home renovation each night. I don't get my own time until after 9pm each night. But I fit in everything, exercise, I don't complain, and I help her with her stuff. I could have more hobbies, but I've said no to certain things because I know my limits. 

How can I get her to honour her own limits? Do I need to let her fail?

Reborn

We are married - so her problems are my problems 

Does that cut both ways?

fordsvt

Sounds a little Darvo going on with her. The job she has or does and expectations are not your fault. She sounds stressed and bring it home. That needs to be your focus. 
Why is she stressed ? How can you help?  
Blame isnt the answer here. Youre a team and she needs to realize that. 

Bob314

I havn't posted for a while. I've been working on me and just watching my interactions. It feels like I'm seeing things more and more, but I don't feel like I'm in charge yet.

We are renovating our home. The main lounge has the curtains removed, and drop sheets down. Wife said on the first night that it stressed her out too much and she refused to sit in that room. But she did hang out there the following 2 nights.

She' been edgy the last few days - probably the reno.

This evening:
Her: I'm worried about when the window gets removed. With the weather cooling down, and <a makeshift exterior wall> I'm worried it's going to be cold/windy/dirty.
Me: When the window comes out I can put insulation up. It's wool so not bad for the kids, and it's held in place by string.
Her: What about the cat - he'll scratch at it and pull it down.
Me: OK. Well I can certainly do the ceiling - the cat can't get  up there.
Her: No. It's not going to do anything. The wind and rain will come through, and the insulation is bad for the kids to breathe.
Me: So what do you want me to do?
Her: <pissed off> Nothing! I don't want you to do anything! I just want you to acknolodge how I'm feeling!

I've been very good at acknowloding her feelings without trying to fix. And I've been very understanding that the reno is causing her a lot of anxiety. But there has to come a time when you need action.  I didn't think the window problem sounded like a situation where I was supposed to just hold her and reassure her. This sounded to be like a legitimate problem that needed a solution. Am I wrong?

Scarlet

Your response was reasonable.  If she wants a non-problem not solved, that is her issue and not yours. 

Put the insulation up because that's what a good homeowner does.  Solve the problem that *you* see.  Her feelings are hers to deal with. 

446

Are you willing to take the blame when her application is rejected? That is what will happen if you do if for her. You can gather information, print things out, and put it all in a convenient place. She needs to do this for her own work/study. 

Education (esp. at the secondary level) will suck up exactly as much of your life as you let it. She is the gatekeeper of work/life balance. No one at the school will ever say, "work less". 

Bob314

SOLVED! - the reno problem.

A few days ago I told her that if the reno was stressing her too much, I would get a hotel room for a few nights for her. She said no (probably because of cost, her thinking she should be able to handle things, etc)

But she actually wanted to go to the hotel. Her talking about the window problem being cold/windy/etc was her justifying that going to a hotel was OK. (She can't justify going based on HER being edgy, but she CAN justify it if the house is 'unlivable' - because then it's not her fault).

So she DID just want my agreement to validate her decision.

Bob314

Where is the line?????

I think I've asked this before. How long do you "just listen" for before you call enough, or start solving it?

We're renovating at the moment. Wife is off work. She complained today that she couldn't relax because of all the tradespeople coming through. I listened for a while, agreed it was intrusive, listened. Then I asked if she'd prefer we cleared a few days - to have nothing go on just for a few days so she can relax. 

She lost it again saying I was problem solving and not empathising.

How long is the appropriate time to listen for before you either say 1) She's just complaining or 2) she needs help/support?

Obviously in this instance she's just complaining. Or she's justifying why she can't do X work, or start X project perhaps. I got it wrong by trying to be supportive - by trying to solve the problem. Should I only offer support if shes asks? In this instance I need to wait until she actually says "what can we do about this?" or "I've had enough?"

Even this approach doesn't work because of who my wife is - she almost never asks for anything until she's well and truely over the line - and then she's annoyed with me because she has to ask. I'm in a lose-lose all the time.

Bob314

Her: I want someone to hear me, to feel me, I feel so alone.

Me: It's like the (emotional) rollercoaster: I'll ride it once or twice with you, but if you're spending all day on it then I'm going to watch from the sidelines. I'll be happy/sad for you, I'll listen, I'll empathise, I'll be supportive, but I can't ride it all day.

Her: I want more than that. I want you sitting next to me all the time.
Me: And that's what make's me sick and vomit all the time.

Well - I didn't say that last line....

Angeline

What's wrong with some carefully applied truth?

"Sorry. I'm not a lapdog. I'm not going to endlessly listen to bitching, and then get in trouble no matter what - yelled at for offering solutions, yelled at for not offering solutions."

"You're a grown woman. If you just want a sympathetic ear, then say so up front. If you want ideas for solutions, then say so up front. None of this Ouija board crap where I'm supposed to magically divine what you want."

"We'll have daily Happy Hour Marriage Meeting. We start off with 10 minutes each of cheer the heroes, boo the villains. Then we'll talk about kid news, schedules, etc. Then we'll have fun for 10-20 minutes. Tell a joke, plan a fun trip."

"The point being that endless bitching about the problems is ineffective, and unattractive. I want to be supportive, but I won't be a sponge for endless negativity."

Betterman

I tell my wife (after first two or three bumps on the roller coaster) pretty much what @Angeline says.  After that I laugh and remind her that if she wants more girly empathy go talk to her friends.  I'm not her BFF I'm a man and men fix things.   She knows she's just whinging after the first 5 minutes or so and always drops it quite sheepishly.

Bob314

I'm hurting - a lot. 

My wife is accusing me of being emotionally unavailable. She's been getting worse and worse the last few months.

I'm wondering if perhaps she's right? Have I just said "screw all that emotional stuff?". Or is this simply a lack of Beta. I think I listen to her a lot. Everynight she talks about her day, her feelings etc and I listen. But she often says she wants me to be annoyed when she's annoyed, sad when she's sad etc. It's true that I don't feel a lot of negaativity. I've made deliberate efforts over the past few years to NOT feel negative. The whole "life it what it is, and I can accept it or change it" doesn't really lend itself to being annoyed. (This philosophy is from this forum, and very much a Buddhist attitude).

I do feel that I am grounded, happy, positive. Even with the renovation, and all the issues that go with it, I'm happy to see the problem, assess it, find the solution and go. No bitching about what should have been or "it's not fair".

Is that emotionally unavailable? She sent me a website link which says:
http://www.couragetochange.com.au/subscriber/articles/what-makes-men-emotionally-unavailable
Shutting down emotionally is usually considered a defence mechanism. Men who have difficulty with committed relationships tend to be arrogant, ambiguous and vague about the status of close relationships and have difficulty directly addressing problems within themselves and in their relationships and arguments. (not me)
They often tune the women out or shut down themselves and are likely to have large emotional outbursts due to suppressing their feelings in their relationships for so long. (not me)
Outbursts often occur away from the relationship and can surface in their job. Men take their anger out on others who can’t fight back, either emotionally or physically. These men can’t feel. (not me)
They can’t feel love or romance for women, and can only feel lust to satisfy their sexual needs. (maybe me - but I do try to romance her - she just hates it all at the moment because it makes her feel close - which I think she has an aversion to - so she shuts me down)
They can feel happy at times but can’t feel bad, or cry. They rarely suffer from guilt. (is me - but is this bad???. It's not that I can't cry - I often find myself feeling very bad about my relationship and shedding a tear, but it's more that I have very little to cry about)

Option 1 is that my solidness and happiness is just showing her up. That she can't drag me into her world of misery any more so she feels alone. And although I listen to her, and empathise, I don't "join" her in her emotion. So she feels alone. So me getting better just shows her how messed up she is.
Option 2 is I'm an emotionally unavailable alpha wanker.

I feel so lost. I don't know what the right path is right now.