Wow! Thanks all for your feedback - good stuff there. I can't expand at the moment but will later.
generalzod said: "what would she do if her best friend had done the same thing?". I have said to wife in the past that she talks to me in a way that she would never talk to her best friend in. Perhaps it's the same for actions/responses.
(I'm also really impressed and scared that @plucky put so much together from my other posts...)
Apologies. My time on this site is quite limited - I don't get much alone time.
Example 1: I make myself a smoothie each morning. I also do the dishes most nights. On this morning there were a handful of dirty dishes in the sink. After I drank my smoothie I washed the blender, nothing else. Wife complained - said that me doing "just my dishes" was selfish. I explained that it was a work morning, that I didn't have a lot of time, that I wasn't doing "just my" dishes I was in fact just doing just the dishes that would smell (having had milk in them).
She in genuinely feeling annoyed and offended. But this is because she believes my actions make me selfish. I disagree with her assessment. Do I support her through her emotion, of tell her to get over it??
Using the "best friend" test - I would ignore this. Perhaps blow it off with a comment like "I can't do all the dishes - then there'd be nothing for the maid". This would annoy her of course, but is this completely ignoring her emotional state?
Example 2: I see a psych every 2-3 weeks which my wife knows. But I didn't tell her that I saw my psych yesterday. I don't really want to tell her because wife asks a lot of prying questions about what I talk about with my psych. Wife is hurt by this, says that it is me "keeping secrets". (I know that in the past I have kept things from her - so she doesn't trust me - and that I am trying to rebuild trust with her. After this discussion I agreed that it would be better for me to be completely open and bear her questions/intrusion than to have secrets). But in the conversation wife is hurt. Again, using the "best friend" test - I can see that this is a valid emotional response, so I wish to be supportive and not blow it off.
Example 3: I go and see friends every few weeks on a Friday night - normally just to chat or play poker/computer games. Wife has mentioned in the past that it would be nice if I invited people to my home, so that she could be semi-included. She's not interested in playing with us, but wants to fringe-dwell. So I invite 2 people over on Friday night (people she has met) (and knowing that she hasn't planned anything). About 3pm friday I tell her that they're coming over tonight after the kids go to bed (about 7pm). She gets annoyed. Says I didn't consult her. Says that she just wants to unwind alone after a hard day. Says that her home is her safe place, and that she wants warning of people coming over. Says it will limit her movements around the house and not allow her to relax. Says she's worried whether we have enough food/snacks (even though it will be after dinner and as a group we NEVER snack). Again calls me selfish.
Using the best friend test - perhaps I see this. Organising without "asking" first may be rude. But where is the line between me "asking permission" and us "negotiating"? So not sure about this. I want to support her emotion - but I also want a certain level of control in my life.
Example 4: My 4yr old is going to bed. She asks for a drink of milk before bed. I say no because she's just had icecream and offer her water instead. Wife gets annoyed. Says that milk is a reasonable request and that children need the calcium from milk. I say that if wife was concerned about calcium then she would be forcing our child to have a drink of milk each night - rather than just on request.
Using the best friend test - don't know. My wife wouldn't tell off her best friend for refusing milk to a child - but it's my wife's child - so would my wife tell off her best friend for refusing milk to OUR child?
You are living far too much in her frame. Getting annoyed over much of this should be ignored or responded to with amused mastery or agree and amplify. I suspect you have a bit on one-itis.
But my question is: when do I know to ignore it, and when is it legitimate feelings that need to be listened to and addressed? I guess it comes to knowing a fitness test from a comfort test.
Had a win today. I'm really starting to feel when I am the captain and when I'm not. Had a difficult discussion last night about sex. Wife was saying that in the past few months she feels like I'm "just fucking" and doesn't feel connected to me. I listened to what she was saying, was agreeing with bits, and was having a good discussion. She kept trying to "complain" about things, but I would steer the conversation back with "yes - you've said that and I've agreed - I'm trying to work out how to prevent/fix". Overall the conversation felt good. And today she was very affectionate with me.
Also a takeaway from the conversation: I need to check out another post i read about someone becoming disconnected during sex.
Tonight we were cuddling in bed watching a movie and I started making the moves on her. I don't think she was really into it, but she certainly wasn't out of it (yellow I guess). We had vanilla sex which I suspect was duty sex.
I'm concerned whether this damages our relationship or not. (God that sounds so pussy-whipped!). She has said in the past that she finds it hard to say no to sex (because of her past abuse history). That doesn't make sense to me because she often says no to me! So in these instances where she's yellow - she may be expecting me to say no for her - she may actually feel "forced" into it. I think that she expects me to "know her" and not make the moves when she's not into it.
I KNOW that you'll all say it's up to her to speak her mind. That I can't do that for her - but how does her history play into it? If she truely is not able to speak her mind for fear from her history - then should I do that for her?
I have spoken to her recently about having a "safe word" in bed. One that means "stop". And also having a "yellow word" - for when she feels unsafe but wants to continue. She didn't want to. Says she's not comfortable enough to say even that. I have said that I thought it would give her control/power. It would allow her to be in control - but she's still not good with it.
I often think she plays the victim. That she doesn't want to try to fix things. She hides behind her issues and doesn't feel safe challangeing them. My psych says I should push her buttons a little - force her into uncomfortable situations (gently) to help her move forward. We'll see.
I need to work out how to be supportive and loving at the same time as having boundaries.
Tonight we were cuddling in bed watching a movie and I started making the moves on her. I don't think she was really into it, but she certainly wasn't out of it (yellow I guess). We had vanilla sex which I suspect was duty sex.
I'm concerned whether this damages our relationship or not.
The short answer: No.
Long answer: If your behavior was somehow triggering her, you'd know by now. Relax. It's not.
I think you have to assume normality until proven otherwise. Not only is that the easiest course of action, it's actually the healthiest, not just for you but for her.
People with abuse want normal lives - or mostly they do, anyway (there is a subset that are so damaged that they want to stay locked in the past but let's assume that your wife is not that). So it's up to you to lead in this respect, and be yourself, doing your thing. Run MAP, try to leverage responsive desire, and so on. The usual guy stuff. It's good for you and for her.
Overthinking it could actually start creating problems where there are none.
2. You are not obligated to talk to anyone about what you say in therapy. Those privacy laws surrounding that are quite firm and specific. Ask your therapist. I'll bet he/she would agree.
3. This is combination bait and switch and gaslighting, to offer something (gathering in your home) and then when you do so act like she never said such a thing and how traumatic it all is, using histrionic language about the home being her safe place - unless your friends are drug addicts and criminals this is ridiculous. You owe her notification and reasonable balance between family alone time and friends coming over time, not permission from Mommy.
4. Did this occur in front of your daughter? You are just as much a parent as she is, she can't arbitrarily decide what you can and can't say to your daughter. Unless it's an abusive or dangerous thing, she's got no business criticizing you in front of your child and second guessing your decisions. If calcium intake is such a concern, then you're right, it should be addressed well before bedtime.
All of the above indicate massive lack of respect for you. She seems to think of you as an unruly and incompetent child, and she's using this petulant, hurt feeling pose to manipulate.
"Speak your truth." - Scarlet Remember to play! Do the right thing, whether anyone is watching or not. Be married, until you are not.
Tonight we were cuddling in bed watching a movie and I started making the moves on her. I don't think she was really into it, but she certainly wasn't out of it (yellow I guess). We had vanilla sex which I suspect was duty sex.
I'm concerned whether this damages our relationship or not.
The short answer: No.
Long answer: If your behavior was somehow triggering her, you'd know by now. Relax. It's not.
I think you have to assume normality until proven otherwise. Not only is that the easiest course of action, it's actually the healthiest, not just for you but for her.
People with abuse want normal lives - or mostly they do, anyway (there is a subset that are so damaged that they want to stay locked in the past but let's assume that your wife is not that). So it's up to you to lead in this respect, and be yourself, doing your thing. Run MAP, try to leverage responsive desire, and so on. The usual guy stuff. It's good for you and for her.
Overthinking it could actually start creating problems where there are none.
The thing with wanting "normal life" post abuse is that her view of normal may not coincide with yours. Im not convinced running RD on someone with abuse in their past works. They may view it as the "guy just wants to use my body" like her abuser may have. Or worse, the touching or groping may be what her abuser did. Theres just not enough information out there for men with wives or gf with histories of abuse.
The thing with wanting "normal life" post abuse is that her view of normal may not coincide with yours.
Im not convinced running RD on someone with abuse in their past works. They may view it as the "guy just wants to use my body" like her abuser may have. Or worse, the touching or groping may be what her abuser did. Theres just not enough information out there for men with wives or gf with histories of abuse.
If that's the case then a normal marital sex life is off the cards; but as I said earlier, if it was the case, @Bob314 would have more warning signs by now than his own doubts. There is currently no reason to think that @Bob314's wife is that badly damaged.
Jumping at shadows has risks all of its own, as does an undue focus on the possible effects of abuse. The only sensible response is to tell him not to worry about it unless and until serious warning signs emerge.
It may be that MRs Bob is using past abuse as a shield against being open to experiences and that indulging that is the wrong way to go. This also seems to be the opinion of Bob314's psych, and he's the expert on the ground.
@Bob314 - My simple test: She is complaining her life is not as easy as she would like. If someone (or her) had died, lost a job, divorced, lost a child, became ill, even lost a pet then yes beta comfort is called for. Complaining about the dishes, who comes over to your home for a casual event, and when a child drinks milk is not a reason to give beta comfort. Continual complaining for such is a DLV and a sign of immaturity. Reacting to such complaining (like trying to fix it) is living in her frame and causes disrespect. Even if you were magic and could instantly "fix" all her problems, she would not be happy with you. @Angeline has it spot on. I had a small epiphany when I read "If Mom is not happy, no one is happy. Then Mom is an emotional terrorist."
Yeah this isn't just her "feeling annoyed"; this is her treating you with no respect. Feeling annoyed can and should often be ignored, disrespectful treatment shouldn't be.
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BlackwulfLeading the pack. Silver MemberPosts: 1,782
Are any of your kids girls? One thing that happened with my wife was when our daughter turned 3 she started having issues because that was when the abuse started for her. Don't let it be something that shuts down sex all the time, but there are times when something will feel more weird than others. You just have to keep working with changing her view of you. The longer you MAP and the more awesome you become she will become more attracted.
She in genuinely feeling annoyed and offended. But this is because she believes my actions make me selfish.
You don't really know what she believes, or why she's annoyed. I doubt she "really believes" that not washing the blender makes you selfish.
You really need to look at the bigger picture - - why is she trying to find things to take offence at? Does she have some more general reason to see you as selfish?
After I drank my smoothie I washed the blender, nothing else. Wife complained - said that me doing "just my dishes" was selfish. I explained that it was a work morning, that I didn't have a lot of time, that I wasn't doing "just my" dishes I was in fact just doing just the dishes that would smell (having had milk in them).
Much too much explaining.
If you want to "validate the feeling", you can say "yes, I can see that you would be upset if you thought I was only doing my own dishes". That's validating the feeling without endorsing the "facts".
The more important thing to say is "what is all this about?"
Enneagram type 5 w6.
If I offer lots of advice, it's probably really me giving advice to myself. That always seems to happen.
Example 2: I see a psych every 2-3 weeks which my wife knows. But I didn't tell her that I saw my psych yesterday. I don't really want to tell her because wife asks a lot of prying questions about what I talk about with my psych. Wife is hurt by this, says that it is me "keeping secrets".
This is bullshit.
Consultations with a psych should be private. Privacy is not the same as secrecy.
It's no secret that I use the toilet, but I don't want everyone watching when I take a dump.
It's important that you get this, because if you mistakenly believe that you ought to answer any questions your wife has about your sesssion, then it will inhibit you in the session and reduce its value.
You need to find out why she asks prying questions.
Enneagram type 5 w6.
If I offer lots of advice, it's probably really me giving advice to myself. That always seems to happen.
Example 3: So I invite 2 people over on Friday night (people she has met) (and knowing that she hasn't planned anything). About 3pm friday I tell her that they're coming over tonight after the kids go to bed (about 7pm). She gets annoyed. Says I didn't consult her. Says that she just wants to unwind alone after a hard day. Says that her home is her safe place, and that she wants warning of people coming over.
I'm with her on this one.
Don't invite people over without warning/consultation. I'd apologize for having done that.
Enneagram type 5 w6.
If I offer lots of advice, it's probably really me giving advice to myself. That always seems to happen.
Example 4: My 4yr old is going to bed. She asks for a drink of milk before bed. I say no because she's just had icecream and offer her water instead. Wife gets annoyed. Says that milk is a reasonable request and that children need the calcium from milk. I say that if wife was concerned about calcium then she would be forcing our child to have a drink of milk each night - rather than just on request.
Hmm. About equal bullshit on both sides on this one.
"Children need calcium from milk" is a rationalisation. And your mistake is to engage with it and enter into "logical" debate. You can't debate with something that makes no sense. Don't try to prove to her that she's an idiot.
It sounds in all 4 examples like she's saying "I'm in charge here, I need to know everything and control everything". THAT is the underlying feeling. Is it one you want to validate? Do you have any idea why she feels like that?
Enneagram type 5 w6.
If I offer lots of advice, it's probably really me giving advice to myself. That always seems to happen.
Comments
generalzod said: "what would she do if her best friend had done the same thing?". I have said to wife in the past that she talks to me in a way that she would never talk to her best friend in. Perhaps it's the same for actions/responses.
(I'm also really impressed and scared that @plucky put so much together from my other posts...)
Example 1: I make myself a smoothie each morning. I also do the dishes most nights. On this morning there were a handful of dirty dishes in the sink. After I drank my smoothie I washed the blender, nothing else. Wife complained - said that me doing "just my dishes" was selfish. I explained that it was a work morning, that I didn't have a lot of time, that I wasn't doing "just my" dishes I was in fact just doing just the dishes that would smell (having had milk in them).
She in genuinely feeling annoyed and offended. But this is because she believes my actions make me selfish. I disagree with her assessment. Do I support her through her emotion, of tell her to get over it??
Using the "best friend" test - I would ignore this. Perhaps blow it off with a comment like "I can't do all the dishes - then there'd be nothing for the maid". This would annoy her of course, but is this completely ignoring her emotional state?
Example 2: I see a psych every 2-3 weeks which my wife knows. But I didn't tell her that I saw my psych yesterday. I don't really want to tell her because wife asks a lot of prying questions about what I talk about with my psych. Wife is hurt by this, says that it is me "keeping secrets". (I know that in the past I have kept things from her - so she doesn't trust me - and that I am trying to rebuild trust with her. After this discussion I agreed that it would be better for me to be completely open and bear her questions/intrusion than to have secrets). But in the conversation wife is hurt. Again, using the "best friend" test - I can see that this is a valid emotional response, so I wish to be supportive and not blow it off.
Example 3: I go and see friends every few weeks on a Friday night - normally just to chat or play poker/computer games. Wife has mentioned in the past that it would be nice if I invited people to my home, so that she could be semi-included. She's not interested in playing with us, but wants to fringe-dwell. So I invite 2 people over on Friday night (people she has met) (and knowing that she hasn't planned anything). About 3pm friday I tell her that they're coming over tonight after the kids go to bed (about 7pm). She gets annoyed. Says I didn't consult her. Says that she just wants to unwind alone after a hard day. Says that her home is her safe place, and that she wants warning of people coming over. Says it will limit her movements around the house and not allow her to relax. Says she's worried whether we have enough food/snacks (even though it will be after dinner and as a group we NEVER snack). Again calls me selfish.
Using the best friend test - perhaps I see this. Organising without "asking" first may be rude. But where is the line between me "asking permission" and us "negotiating"? So not sure about this. I want to support her emotion - but I also want a certain level of control in my life.
Example 4: My 4yr old is going to bed. She asks for a drink of milk before bed. I say no because she's just had icecream and offer her water instead. Wife gets annoyed. Says that milk is a reasonable request and that children need the calcium from milk. I say that if wife was concerned about calcium then she would be forcing our child to have a drink of milk each night - rather than just on request.
Using the best friend test - don't know. My wife wouldn't tell off her best friend for refusing milk to a child - but it's my wife's child - so would my wife tell off her best friend for refusing milk to OUR child?
The best friend test is good.
Also a takeaway from the conversation: I need to check out another post i read about someone becoming disconnected during sex.
I'm concerned whether this damages our relationship or not. (God that sounds so pussy-whipped!). She has said in the past that she finds it hard to say no to sex (because of her past abuse history). That doesn't make sense to me because she often says no to me! So in these instances where she's yellow - she may be expecting me to say no for her - she may actually feel "forced" into it. I think that she expects me to "know her" and not make the moves when she's not into it.
I KNOW that you'll all say it's up to her to speak her mind. That I can't do that for her - but how does her history play into it? If she truely is not able to speak her mind for fear from her history - then should I do that for her?
I have spoken to her recently about having a "safe word" in bed. One that means "stop". And also having a "yellow word" - for when she feels unsafe but wants to continue. She didn't want to. Says she's not comfortable enough to say even that. I have said that I thought it would give her control/power. It would allow her to be in control - but she's still not good with it.
I often think she plays the victim. That she doesn't want to try to fix things. She hides behind her issues and doesn't feel safe challangeing them. My psych says I should push her buttons a little - force her into uncomfortable situations (gently) to help her move forward. We'll see.
I need to work out how to be supportive and loving at the same time as having boundaries.
Long answer:
If your behavior was somehow triggering her, you'd know by now. Relax. It's not.
I think you have to assume normality until proven otherwise. Not only is that the easiest course of action, it's actually the healthiest, not just for you but for her.
People with abuse want normal lives - or mostly they do, anyway (there is a subset that are so damaged that they want to stay locked in the past but let's assume that your wife is not that). So it's up to you to lead in this respect, and be yourself, doing your thing. Run MAP, try to leverage responsive desire, and so on. The usual guy stuff. It's good for you and for her.
Overthinking it could actually start creating problems where there are none.
2. You are not obligated to talk to anyone about what you say in therapy. Those privacy laws surrounding that are quite firm and specific. Ask your therapist. I'll bet he/she would agree.
3. This is combination bait and switch and gaslighting, to offer something (gathering in your home) and then when you do so act like she never said such a thing and how traumatic it all is, using histrionic language about the home being her safe place - unless your friends are drug addicts and criminals this is ridiculous. You owe her notification and reasonable balance between family alone time and friends coming over time, not permission from Mommy.
4. Did this occur in front of your daughter? You are just as much a parent as she is, she can't arbitrarily decide what you can and can't say to your daughter. Unless it's an abusive or dangerous thing, she's got no business criticizing you in front of your child and second guessing your decisions. If calcium intake is such a concern, then you're right, it should be addressed well before bedtime.
All of the above indicate massive lack of respect for you. She seems to think of you as an unruly and incompetent child, and she's using this petulant, hurt feeling pose to manipulate.
Remember to play!
Do the right thing, whether anyone is watching or not.
Be married, until you are not.
Email address: angeline.greenwood@att.net
Im not convinced running RD on someone with abuse in their past works. They may view it as the "guy just wants to use my body" like her abuser may have. Or worse, the touching or groping may be what her abuser did. Theres just not enough information out there for men with wives or gf with histories of abuse.
Jumping at shadows has risks all of its own, as does an undue focus on the possible effects of abuse. The only sensible response is to tell him not to worry about it unless and until serious warning signs emerge.
It may be that MRs Bob is using past abuse as a shield against being open to experiences and that indulging that is the wrong way to go. This also seems to be the opinion of Bob314's psych, and he's the expert on the ground.
You really need to look at the bigger picture - - why is she trying to find things to take offence at? Does she have some more general reason to see you as selfish?
Much too much explaining.
If you want to "validate the feeling", you can say "yes, I can see that you would be upset if you thought I was only doing my own dishes". That's validating the feeling without endorsing the "facts".
The more important thing to say is "what is all this about?"
Consultations with a psych should be private. Privacy is not the same as secrecy.
It's no secret that I use the toilet, but I don't want everyone watching when I take a dump.
It's important that you get this, because if you mistakenly believe that you ought to answer any questions your wife has about your sesssion, then it will inhibit you in the session and reduce its value.
You need to find out why she asks prying questions.
Don't invite people over without warning/consultation. I'd apologize for having done that.
Hmm. About equal bullshit on both sides on this one.
"Children need calcium from milk" is a rationalisation. And your mistake is to engage with it and enter into "logical" debate. You can't debate with something that makes no sense. Don't try to prove to her that she's an idiot.
It sounds in all 4 examples like she's saying "I'm in charge here, I need to know everything and control everything". THAT is the underlying feeling. Is it one you want to validate? Do you have any idea why she feels like that?