Something that has helped me, is to remind myself that I have asked my husband to change significantly, therefore I have to allow him to change. He's going through a process too, and it takes time, so signs of progress count very much.
@The_Dude Of course not. But I guess what I was getting at is that her acceptance has little to do with a single sexual act that she may not be into, unless it's PiV itself. But that's already been established, I think.
To my male brain, it is unfortunate that we have to go through all these mind games just to flip a switch in our wives. As men, whenever we have a problem, we study the solutions and fix the problem. If women were wired like men, they'd be the ones doing internet searches about how to unlock their own sexuality.
So that's what's been the most frustrating part. It's the fact that they don't take the initiative to figure out a solution, even when they realize there's a problem.
I must be the exception, then because I was the one who went searching on the internet to find answers and solutions. And I'm the FO trying to get my husband to be captain.
@Tennee - "Crap" refers to how I've felt through this entire discussion. From the initial frustration through the reactive anger combined with feelings of inadequacy, both in the eyes of my wife (which is implied in her not finding me attractive enough to give BJTC) and in the eyes of this group (which is inferred in the various comments that I haven't done enough manly/assertive/alpha pushing of boundaries, especially since this is the opposite of innate and natural to me).
This thread has really been difficult for me; I hope you all can see that. I think we've flogged this particular horse enough for the time being. It's not productive.
My short term plan is to update my MAP and work at it harder. I'm going to try the technique @shibari suggested. And I'm going to figure out how I can self-validate since this clearly is my main problem above all else.
I like the short term plan. I'm doing a brutally honest MAP assessment myself right now, identifying my Reds, Yellows, and Greens. I'm not happy with some things, and I know who's responsible for 'em too. So, the path is forward. What's behind me is not important.
I hope this thread highlighted some positives for you. It should have reminded you of the gains, and you have had gains Bro. You got some suggestions and direction from the Merry MMSL Players, some via 2x4, for channeling the forward momentum. And it should give you some introspection direction. I think you need to pick a scab here, figure out what's making noise in the Shadow.
Channel the anger into energy and drive change. Fuck frustration, remember this is a marathon. Enjoy the ride my man. Really, start to enjoy the ride. MAP on MM.
"Fall down seven times, stand up eight" Japanese Proverb
As as far as the dominance stuff, I'm only trying it because the Forum recommends it. It's never been how I've viewed sex. I don't want to pull hair or do anything that actually hurts. That seems wrong to me, in the absence of a clear desire for it. I don't feel like I need it; my wife doesn't seem like she wants/needs it, so here we are.
When we had our quickie the other night, all our lights were on. So that was another progress item. If I'm honest, I preferred the candlelight. So I liked the spontaneity of the quickie over the deliberateness of setting up the room. But I liked the atmosphere of the candlelight better. This is obviously not one of my major gripes.
Re politeness- My wife sees that as a respect thing, near as I can tell. It's important to her that I respect her. So this works against the dominance thing that is being pushed here. She probably thinks that submission somehow lowers her. (This is speculation on my part.) But it suggests that she doesn't crave dominance. So I am not naturally dominant; she doesn't necessarily need it, and when I try it it probably seems forced and fake. Which it is, to a certain extent.
It doesn't necessarily mean she's not submissive, it could just mean she's got barriers and mental protections up to guard her and keep her safe. Sometimes she might even raise and lower her shields in a single night.
It seems to me like you're waiting for a tipping point, which will then cause a lot of these hangups to dissipate. I go back to my other solution which is to try something else and soften her up towards experimentation in general. That's what I meant by putting the ball in the air earlier.
As as far as the dominance stuff, I'm only trying it because the Forum recommends it. It's never been how I've viewed sex. I don't want to pull hair or do anything that actually hurts. That seems wrong to me, in the absence of a clear desire for it. I don't feel like I need it; my wife doesn't seem like she wants/needs it, so here we are.
When we had our quickie the other night, all our lights were on. So that was another progress item. If I'm honest, I preferred the candlelight. So I liked the spontaneity of the quickie over the deliberateness of setting up the room. But I liked the atmosphere of the candlelight better. This is obviously not one of my major gripes.
Re politeness- My wife sees that as a respect thing, near as I can tell. It's important to her that I respect her. So this works against the dominance thing that is being pushed here. She probably thinks that submission somehow lowers her. (This is speculation on my part.) But it suggests that she doesn't crave dominance. So I am not naturally dominant; she doesn't necessarily need it, and when I try it it probably seems forced and fake. Which it is, to a certain extent.
I note your use of the words "seem" and "seems" here. I may be off-base, but these are perhaps inferences entirely in your own head. Unless she has actually articulated in a clear way that she doesn't like (and I infer from your other comments up-thread that she hasn't) what others have suggested in this thread by way of dominance, I would suggest that you don't really know. She may not even know. I would have said the very same thing you have said here until about a year and a half or so ago. And you know what I found out? Yep, DW very much likes a little bit of hair pulling, ass-slapping, blindfold, and various other dominance moves. It's about her responsive desire reacting to your unbridled desire for her (near as I can tell). I get where you're at, definitely; but I think you just need to get out of your head a bit. Take the bridle off.
@Rorschach - That's right. I say "seems" because I'm going off of appearances and reactions. I don't know for a fact that she's not into the whole dominance/submission thing (in the MMSL context), so I'm not claiming to know this is the case.
That said, I haven't seen any indication from her that she wants this. Hell, if she indeed does want this, she doesn't (appear to) know it herself! And it's scary for me to have to try it because in my mind, I'm risking rejection and the progress I have made by pushing for something I don't even want (me being dominant and forceful in the bedroom)! I'm only doing it because the forum believes it will help me get the sex life I want. That's such a huge obstacle for me right now.
0
Rorschach"Just ask the axis ..."Silver MemberPosts: 1,458
@Rorschach - That's right. I say "seems" because I'm going off of appearances and reactions. I don't know for a fact that she's not into the whole dominance/submission thing (in the MMSL context), so I'm not claiming to know this is the case.
That said, I haven't seen any indication from her that she wants this. Hell, if she indeed does want this, she doesn't (appear to) know it herself! And it's scary for me to have to try it because in my mind, I'm risking rejection and the progress I have made by pushing for something I don't even want (me being dominant and forceful in the bedroom)! I'm only doing it because the forum believes it will help me get the sex life I want. That's such a huge obstacle for me right now.
@MiddleMan she may not know it. And as an in-my-head-too-much guy, I completely get it. I had to get over a lot even to grab a handful of DW's hair. And I don't think anyone up-thread suggested anything sudden or radical. Just incremental changes. And anyway, at a practical level, what are the alternatives?
I think attempting dominant, aggressive moves when you don't even like it is a bad idea. You will certainly project some whiff of your distaste, which is the exact opposite recipe for success. I know you read, because you tagged it "insightful", this post:
Being gently held down in such a way that can be plausibly denied as
part of the playing (and that could easily be wriggled out of if
desired) is exciting without being threatening to novices to being
firmly held in one place during sexy play.
The fact of the
restraining means on a subconscious level "he REALLY wants this to
happen, so it must be OK" which is sometimes the only barrier between a
Good Girl and her pleasure from oral or any activity where he is focused
on her. "He can't be 'bored' or 'clock watching' or 'only doing I for
me' if he's holding me down." Same for oral.
This is what a lot
of women mean when they say they need a safe environment - one that is
free of ambiguity, hesitancy and judgment on his part.
"Speak your truth." - Scarlet Remember to play! Do the right thing, whether anyone is watching or not. Be married, until you are not.
@MiddleMan she may not know it. And as an in-my-head-too-much guy, I completely get it. I had to get over a lot even to grab a handful of DW's hair. And I don't think anyone up-thread suggested anything sudden or radical. Just incremental changes. And anyway, at a practical level, what are the alternatives?
Yup. So next time you're in doggy, caress the caboose, and then just a little..bitty....smack. Pin her arms down, then some hard pounding. Rock her legs up around you in missionary, pin her, and pile drive. I would absolutely NOT do anything sudden or radical - just slowly dial this up some. If it doesn't work, ok. I did a hair pull, light, the other day - it was SHUT.DOWN. Ok. But me pulling her back into me rather forcefully by her shoulders or hips in doggy seems fine.
"Fall down seven times, stand up eight" Japanese Proverb
I don't know if this is progress, a step back, or just nothing:
Last week, I took my wife and daughter on a vacation. We all had a great time, although there were no opportunities for my wife and I to have "vacation sex" since all three of us were sharing one room.
Two nights ago, back at home, my wife and I had some very satisfying sex. The 6-day layoff had me very hard, and even though she was very passive at first, I took command and made it a good session where we both orgasmed, even though it was more or less our usual formula.
So last night, after I got home from the gym, I was at least sort of interested in trying to make it two nights in a row. But I came home to a wife who was wearing her unsexy pajamas and didn't seem to have much energy. Yellow at best.
And I thought to myself, do I really want this? Because I'm going to have to supply all the energy, here, if I do. I haven't especially laid the groundwork with drivebys today, so this will probably be a real challenge, possibly ending up with ED and/or a -1.
Since I didn't really feel the energy in myself to "bring it," so to speak, I decided not to initiate. And I don't necessarily feel down about it, because of the thought process I went through above: I looked at it from a frame of agency and personal responsibility. This was my choice not to try as opposed to feeling like a victim of circumstances beyond my control.
To be fully honest, part of my thinking was that I didn't think she'd be excited and her reactions wouldn't be what I wanted (ie excited, turned on, etc.). So this wasn't entirely self-directed. But I just didn't feel like forcing the issue.
So I feel like I did some growth leading to this moment. Am I just hamstering it or is there something here to legitimately call a win?
Initiate when you want to, don't when you don't. I'm looking at the above as a good progress step, as you seemed to be operating from your frame here, and you were not spun up about it.
"Fall down seven times, stand up eight" Japanese Proverb
Yeah, @Tennee hit the nail on the head. I'd have passed on that action as well.
Put back on course via a 'One Hour Call' with Athol. Seriously worth 10 times the cost, but don't tell him that....
“Between stimulus and response, there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom.” - Victor Frankl
Comments
I did not agree with this bit below from your OP but didn't want to jack the thread right off the bat.
"I know how important it is to self-validate, I really do. But I can only do that to a certain extent."
“She was 3/4 perfection and 1/4 broken glass.”
edited for grammars
I hope this thread highlighted some positives for you. It should have reminded you of the gains, and you have had gains Bro. You got some suggestions and direction from the Merry MMSL Players, some via 2x4, for channeling the forward momentum. And it should give you some introspection direction. I think you need to pick a scab here, figure out what's making noise in the Shadow.
Channel the anger into energy and drive change. Fuck frustration, remember this is a marathon. Enjoy the ride my man. Really, start to enjoy the ride. MAP on MM.
How will you live well today?
As as far as the dominance stuff, I'm only trying it because the Forum recommends it. It's never been how I've viewed sex. I don't want to pull hair or do anything that actually hurts. That seems wrong to me, in the absence of a clear desire for it. I don't feel like I need it; my wife doesn't seem like she wants/needs it, so here we are.
When we had our quickie the other night, all our lights were on. So that was another progress item. If I'm honest, I preferred the candlelight. So I liked the spontaneity of the quickie over the deliberateness of setting up the room. But I liked the atmosphere of the candlelight better. This is obviously not one of my major gripes.
Re politeness- My wife sees that as a respect thing, near as I can tell. It's important to her that I respect her. So this works against the dominance thing that is being pushed here. She probably thinks that submission somehow lowers her. (This is speculation on my part.) But it suggests that she doesn't crave dominance. So I am not naturally dominant; she doesn't necessarily need it, and when I try it it probably seems forced and fake. Which it is, to a certain extent.
It seems to me like you're waiting for a tipping point, which will then cause a lot of these hangups to dissipate. I go back to my other solution which is to try something else and soften her up towards experimentation in general. That's what I meant by putting the ball in the air earlier.
That said, I haven't seen any indication from her that she wants this. Hell, if she indeed does want this, she doesn't (appear to) know it herself! And it's scary for me to have to try it because in my mind, I'm risking rejection and the progress I have made by pushing for something I don't even want (me being dominant and forceful in the bedroom)! I'm only doing it because the forum believes it will help me get the sex life I want. That's such a huge obstacle for me right now.
http://marriedmansexlife.vanillaforums.com/discussion/comment/405509/#Comment_405509
Being gently held down in such a way that can be plausibly denied as part of the playing (and that could easily be wriggled out of if desired) is exciting without being threatening to novices to being firmly held in one place during sexy play.
The fact of the restraining means on a subconscious level "he REALLY wants this to happen, so it must be OK" which is sometimes the only barrier between a Good Girl and her pleasure from oral or any activity where he is focused on her. "He can't be 'bored' or 'clock watching' or 'only doing I for me' if he's holding me down." Same for oral.
This is what a lot of women mean when they say they need a safe environment - one that is free of ambiguity, hesitancy and judgment on his part.
Remember to play!
Do the right thing, whether anyone is watching or not.
Be married, until you are not.
Email address: angeline.greenwood@att.net
How will you live well today?
Last week, I took my wife and daughter on a vacation. We all had a great time, although there were no opportunities for my wife and I to have "vacation sex" since all three of us were sharing one room.
Two nights ago, back at home, my wife and I had some very satisfying sex. The 6-day layoff had me very hard, and even though she was very passive at first, I took command and made it a good session where we both orgasmed, even though it was more or less our usual formula.
So last night, after I got home from the gym, I was at least sort of interested in trying to make it two nights in a row. But I came home to a wife who was wearing her unsexy pajamas and didn't seem to have much energy. Yellow at best.
And I thought to myself, do I really want this? Because I'm going to have to supply all the energy, here, if I do. I haven't especially laid the groundwork with drivebys today, so this will probably be a real challenge, possibly ending up with ED and/or a -1.
Since I didn't really feel the energy in myself to "bring it," so to speak, I decided not to initiate. And I don't necessarily feel down about it, because of the thought process I went through above: I looked at it from a frame of agency and personal responsibility. This was my choice not to try as opposed to feeling like a victim of circumstances beyond my control.
To be fully honest, part of my thinking was that I didn't think she'd be excited and her reactions wouldn't be what I wanted (ie excited, turned on, etc.). So this wasn't entirely self-directed. But I just didn't feel like forcing the issue.
So I feel like I did some growth leading to this moment. Am I just hamstering it or is there something here to legitimately call a win?
How will you live well today?
Put back on course via a 'One Hour Call' with Athol. Seriously worth 10 times the cost, but don't tell him that....
“Between stimulus and response, there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom.” - Victor Frankl
Woot!
Fate favors the prepared.