Intro & triage

Majesty99 · October 2014

Hi All,

Just joined the forum this weekend, so here is my introduction and triage post. Read the MMSL Primer about eight months ago and have been working on some aspects of my life since then (more details below). More recently, I also bought the MAP book to try to make better progress. Overall, I feel that I have a pretty decent marriage and my wife - quite rightly - comments that many men would be jealous of how frequently we have sex. I guess the position I'm in is that I wonder whether this is as good as it gets, or whether there is anything I can do to improve things further.

So full triage...

1. Basic Questions: My wife and I are in our early to mid-forties. I'm about a year and a half older (so I'm the one closest to mid-forties!). Been married just over 20 years. We got together two years before we got married. No children.

I'm 5'10" and about 160 lbs (I'm at my lowest weight right now for probably decades following exercise that I've been doing and the recent weight workouts introduced post reading the Primer). My wife is 5'2" and I think 125 lbs. In terms of general attractiveness, I didn't used to think I was very attractive, but since taking on the MMSL advice I'm starting to think that I'm not bad. I now think that I am hotter than my wife since my body is in good shape and I'm dressing better. I think she could be really very attractive, but I could do with getting a little bit more into shape and dressing to make the most of her assets.

2. Medical: I'm pretty healthy. Haven't needed to go to a doctor for as long as I remember. It's a similar situation for my wife. She was on birth control pills, but came off those over a year ago following my having a vasectomy. (Yes, I know not everyone here thinks that was a good idea, but it's worked fine for me.) My gut feeling is that she has found it easier to achieve orgasm since coming off the pill, which is my main reason for feeling that the vasectomy was a good idea.

3. Structural Attraction Issues: I've got a decent job, which I work reasonably hard at, and earn a reasonable salary (about double the national average in the UK, so I don't think much more could be asked for). Our only debt is the mortgage on the house. We've got decent amount of savings and sensible budget to keep building the savings. As the main bread winner in the house, I don't think there are any problems here.

4. Critical Moments: None really significant that I can think of. She does know that for a while I was watching porn sometimes, but she also knows that there were other issues about our sex-lives where she had responsibility. (See Question 6 below!)

5. Outside Sexual Sources: Similarly to #4, none really. As I said, I used to watch porn secretly, but realised that this wasn't really doing me any good and made me feel guilty. I dealt with it and stopped. A few years ago I told her that I was no longer watching it, but I sometimes wonder whether things would have been better if I'd just dealt with it and never told her that I had been using it. However, that's happened and it's too late to change it.

She had quite a few sexual partners before we got together, but there has been no point since where I have for a moment thought she wasn't 100% faithful to me. One issue is that she still looks back to one particular past relationship which she feels was damaging to her and she is keen not to repeat the sexual things in that which she found uncomfortable.

6. When did sex go bad?: The marriage started ok, but I think we fairly soon ended up in a pattern that my wife called "once a week" and I called "three times a monthly cycle" since it occurred once every weekend but not when she had her period. At that time, I wanted sex more often and she wanted it left often. The once-a-week pattern was one that enabled us to compromise without having to discuss it. We attended a marriage enrichment event a few years ago and we did actually discuss how I was disappointed with this frequency. (It was here that I opened up about having overcome my porn issues.) We now manage to have sex 2-3 times a week (about 10 a monthly cycle), which I guess many men would kill to have and perhaps I should be satisfied with this.

One thing about our sex life is that it is rather predictable. My wife is happy with quite vanilla sex - she'd probably be happy to use the same position every single time, whereas I'd like much more variety in what we do. We tend to be very quiet during sex: she's almost silent with a very quiet little grunt when she cums, sometimes I'm not even certain if it has happened, whereas I will moan and groan much more. I don't talk dirty to her - I think she would be very uncomfortable with it and when I've begun to approach the topic she refers to the previous relationship and how she felt degraded when they talked dirty. Overall, I think we communicate quite badly during sex.

All in all, we do ok on frequency (compared to some marriages, I suspect) and reasonably well in terms of physical satisfaction, but I just feel that there should be more.

7. Sex at the start of the relationship: I've mostly answered this in Question 6. We started with sex about twice a week when first married, reasonably soon reduced to once a week despite regular frequency disputes. On the whole, I'd say the quality was pretty much the same as it's been throughout the marriage. Reasonably mainstream / vanilla, and she used to cum about 50% of the time. Following coming off the pill, she now cums probably about 85% of the time.

8. Elephant in the Room: One elephant is the past relationship that she had about four years before we married. This still seems to be something that affects her and it still sometimes seems to be a barometer of whether she is uncomfortable with something sexual. The more significant elephant that I should mention is that she has a very strong Christian faith. That is probably the most important thing in her life and very much affects her behaviour. That is one of the reasons that she is uncomfortable with dirty talk: she says that goes against what is permitted for her. I used to have a reasonably strong faith, but I think it has eroded over recent years. I try to avoid talking about that - I'm particularly not going to tell her that I don't think I believe in God anymore - since I think it will upset her a lot.

9. Leader in the Marriage: For the majority of the marriage, we've tried to function as a team, but I think that too often I've let her make important decisions and not led enough myself. Following reading of the Primer, I've tried to be more decisive - too often in the past, I've answered "I don't mind" on too many questions - but I think it is one area where I most still need to work on.

10. The Good Times: To be honest, the whole marriage has been reasonably good. Right now, I'd say things are quite good. We have more sex now than at any point in the previous 20 years, but I can't help wonder whether things couldn't be even better. I'd love to be able to look at her and thinks she was a hot little babe who was desperate for my body and that the sex reflected that. But is that too much to ask?

Ok... I think that's pretty much the situation... what now?

Reborn · October 2014

I'd love to be able to look at her and thinks she was a hot little babe who was desperate for my body

Do you feel that she doesn't really desire you?

Jen_Kay · October 2014

Welcome to the Forum!

Reborn · October 2014

Yeah, I guess my greeting was a bit abrupt!

Welcome!

Frank_London · October 2014

Welcome.

At first blush it sounds like she's just not attracted. Believe it or not, that's good news because it's fixable.

1. This past relationship of hers is a factor at play.
After all, she tells you it's a factor. so there's no mystery that it plays a role. However - what kind of role?
Maybe she really was traumatized. Maybe it's her convenient excuse. Maybe it's a bit of both. (but probably not 50/50 though... it will be more one, or more the other)

See, she might be refusing to talk about it because it was all so terrible, or because there's really not much there and her excuse would be unmasked. But we don't know. you don't know.

If she's serious about marriage then she should get that sorted, and if she refuses talk to you about it, it is a reasonable request that she talk to a psychologist. But that's for down the road in your MAP when you reach stage 4, a statement of expectations.

2. no kids; why not? Just personal choice?
Is she a family, nurturing type? is she a risk taker?

3.* "She had quite a few sexual partners before we got together" ... what about you?

4. an observation: She sounds prudish about sex and almost asexual. However, this is in total contrast to the numerous premarital partners. That brings it back around to attraction.

Mongrel · October 2014

Welcome, Majesty99. You sound quite similar to me, though I'm a few years older. I had a vasectomy and it also worked out to be a positive near as I can tell. I also went from lackluster belief in Christianity to agnosticism to atheism and am married to a woman who teaches Sunday school every week. I started a topic on the subject some time ago: http://marriedmansexlife.vanillaforums.com/discussion/10109/discussing-communication-and-conflict-issues-for-atheists-married-to-christians/p1

You've mentioned quite a bit about your wife's 'bad experience' but do you know what the experience was? Physical abuse, kink, ?? It's kind of hard to gauge what to suggest without knowing the general category of what it is that is bothering her.

Majesty99 · October 2014

Reborn said:

Do you feel that she doesn't really desire you?

Hmm... difficult one. For quite a while, I did think that and probably that was where I was in February when I first read the Primer. I remember thinking that I had to do something as my first reaction was that perhaps the reason why sex felt quite so disappointing (despite it now occurring more often) was that my wife still did not find me attractive enough. That's when I started doing weights in addition to the regular sport that I already did and started to make adjustments to how I dressed.

She has definitely noticed the difference. She says that I am in good shape and she is impressed that I have muscles where I've never had them before (biceps and pecs). She does wonder what caused me to change my dress sense. I also notice that at times she does run her hands over my chest and my biceps quite appreciatively.

So my gut feeling is that there is desire in there somewhere, but somehow not enough to really show it during sex. She seems to have quite a high level of inhibition and shyness, coupled with what I think is the need to be a good girl due to her faith, and these are somehow not overcome just by my being more muscular, dressing better, and being as a consequence a bit more attractive.

On the one hand, perhaps I just need to move it up a level and make myself more attractive so that this overcomes her inhibitions and so I need to MAP more intensively. On the other, I am concerned that being quite so devout actually means she is now too much of a good girl for this to make a difference.

Probably more on this when I reply to the next set of questions raised...

Majesty99 · October 2014

Quite a lot of questions below... I'll try my best to answer them. I guess it will reveal something.

Frank_London said:
At first blush it sounds like she's just not attracted. Believe it or not, that's good news because it's fixable.

I hope what we have is fixable. As I said in the previous response, I originally thought she wasn't attracted... but the work I've done so far seems to have improved the level of attraction that she is showing, but not the level of enthusiasm during sex (at least not so far as I can tell).

1. This past relationship of hers is a factor at play.
After all, she tells you it's a factor. so there's no mystery that it plays a role. However - what kind of role?
Maybe she really was traumatized. Maybe it's her convenient excuse. Maybe it's a bit of both. (but probably not 50/50 though... it will be more one, or more the other)

See, she might be refusing to talk about it because it was all so terrible, or because there's really not much there and her excuse would be unmasked. But we don't know. you don't know.

I don't think necessarily that she was traumatized by that particular relationship. My understanding (which admittedly could be missing what is deep inside her) is that she is a little ashamed of how she acted in it and that she got involved in sexual acts which she felt uncomfortable at the time. Due to her strong faith now, I presume that she feels she shouldn't have been sexually active at the time and regrets that. I also wonder whether she felt slightly like she was out of control: that somehow events took hold and she should have been stronger to not go as far as she did with her ex-boyfriend then.

To me it seems it is strongly tied into her faith, but I could be completely wrong.

One thing I find frustrating is that this past relationship is so long ago. She's had no contact with him for approaching 25 years and we now live nowhere near where she grew up and where, I presume, he would still be.

If she's serious about marriage then she should get that sorted, and if she refuses talk to you about it, it is a reasonable request that she talk to a psychologist. But that's for down the road in your MAP when you reach stage 4, a statement of expectations.

Right now, I think she would say there is no need for a psychologist. The activities that she is uncomfortable from her past and doesn't want to repeat are, in my interpretation of her opinion, not what she as a good Christian woman should be doing. I think she would interpret the issue as being a matter of her faith and sin, not a matter of psychology.

2. no kids; why not? Just personal choice?
Is she a family, nurturing type? is she a risk taker?

Personal choice. Neither of us find very young children particularly enjoyable to be around - I certainly prefer much older children with whom I can have a proper conversation. To some extent careers have come first. One thing in my mind is the many stories I've read of women who have completely gone off sex when they've had children. That certainly didn't encourage me to want to start a family.

I would say that she is quite a nurturing type... but that she find older children and adults the people she naturally wants to nurture.

3.* "She had quite a few sexual partners before we got together" ... what about you?

Just one. Since my ex-girlfriend wanted to remain a "technical virgin", we didn't do penetrative sex, but lots of oral... but that's still sex.

4. an observation: She sounds prudish about sex and almost asexual. However, this is in total contrast to the numerous premarital partners. That brings it back around to attraction.

I may have painted her more prudish than she really is, but it reflects how I look at her behaviour. There are plenty of times where I find myself ranting in my mind about her being a prude. The contrast to which you refer I think comes back to her faith. The previous sexual partners were before she became really serious about her faith and part of that change was to address her previous sexual morality and to abstain from sex until she got married.

I guess my question based on your line of inquiry is whether it is possible to become sufficiently attractive to her to push her outside the faith-restricted controls and become once more enthusiastic and even out of control when we have sex.

Remus · October 2014

A few thoughts:

1) I'm not religious myself (and I'm pretty sure Athol isn't either?), but the MAP and red-pill tend to connect quite well with traditional belief systems since they feature a patriarchal god and other figures, and a general sense that the man is the leader of the family and that women should be submissive. Your lukewarm answer to the 'leader' question tells me that this has not perhaps been a top focus of the map. Admittedly becoming a leader is often much harder than cutting out excess carbs. But I'd really focus on this. Start pushing the leadership part as far as you can go. You might be surprised out how responsive she is the more you take charge, both in daily life and the bedroom.

2) Not to throw some cold water doubts out there, but do you think she's really cumming %85 of the time? That sounds high for someone who is basically offering what sounds like starfish sex. Perhaps she's just 'exaggerating' to get it over with?

Majesty99 · October 2014

Mongrel said:

Welcome, Majesty99. You sound quite similar to me, though I'm a few years older. I had a vasectomy and it also worked out to be a positive near as I can tell. I also went from lackluster belief in Christianity to agnosticism to atheism and am married to a woman who teaches Sunday school every week. I started a topic on the subject some time ago: http://marriedmansexlife.vanillaforums.com/discussion/10109/discussing-communication-and-conflict-issues-for-atheists-married-to-christians/p1

You've mentioned quite a bit about your wife's 'bad experience' but do you know what the experience was? Physical abuse, kink, ?? It's kind of hard to gauge what to suggest without knowing the general category of what it is that is bothering her.

My background seems to be a little different. When we got married, I was pretty enthusiastic about my own Christian faith and stayed that way for many years. I've just found in the recent few years that I'm beginning to question the whole thing - mainly due to observing that some of the things that I was told during sermons doesn't actually seen to be true. I'm starting to think that, contrary to what was preached, God does not actually answer prayer and doesn't give me supernatural strength. Instead, it seems to me that I need my own strength to do it. In the past, I prayed over and over to gain the strength to stop watching porn, but it was only the point where I seriously put my mind to it and said fuck it I'm not doing this ever again that I actually succeeded. My own strength was the key and despite what I was told God seems to have helped me not at all.

So in contrast to what I think you are saying about youtself, I started the marriage with strong belief, but it has waned over the years.

In terms of the bad experience, it wasn't physical abuse. Rather she took part in activities that she wished in hindsight hadn't happened. For example, she says that they did use a lot of dirty talk during sex at one point in the relationship and that it was very effective in getting her hot, bothered, and orgasmic. However, she says that it left her feeling degraded and consequently it is off limits for our relationship.

Majesty99 · October 2014

Remus said:

A few thoughts:

1) I'm not religious myself (and I'm pretty sure Athol isn't either?), but the MAP and red-pill tend to connect quite well with traditional belief systems since they feature a patriarchal god and other figures, and a general sense that the man is the leader of the family and that women should be submissive. Your lukewarm answer to the 'leader' question tells me that this has not perhaps been a top focus of the map. Admittedly becoming a leader is often much harder than cutting out excess carbs. But I'd really focus on this. Start pushing the leadership part as far as you can go. You might be surprised out how responsive she is the more you take charge, both in daily life and the bedroom.

2) Not to throw some cold water doubts out there, but do you think she's really cumming %85 of the time? That sounds high for someone who is basically offering what sounds like starfish sex. Perhaps she's just 'exaggerating' to get it over with?

For Comment #1, I think it depends upon how you interpret what the Bible says. Different bits of Christianity seem to emphasise various different doctrines as important or not important. (This is another reason why I'm questioning my faith - when there is so much disagreement over what is important, I really feel uncomfortable that there is a universal truth.) My wife's view is that the headship issue (that being what you are referring to) is not one that she subscribes to... and I've always agreed with her in that. It seems to be viewed as far more important amongst US Christians, whereas here in the UK it is not hugely mainstream. So she doesn't have a strong view on headship and women as submissive, but she does have strong beliefs about swearing being wrong. I can't help but feel these rules are a bit arbitrary and so my faith continues everymore to waver...

I do agree, however, that the leader aspect has not been my top focus of my MAP so far. It's been unclear to me what exactly I should be doing. I have tried to be more decisive, and mentally kicked myself a few times when I've said "I don't mind" when I should have got on and made a decision. All in all, I think this is an area where I need advice...

For Comment #2, I never meant to suggest she only offers me starfish sex. That would be rather unfair of me. She moves quite a lot during sex and I can tell she's trying to enjoy it. The trouble from my perspective is that it's all conducted essentially in silence. I struggle to tell when she is actually enjoying it and when it isn't happening for her: it's only right at the end that I discover she's cumming. I think she's probably telling the truth about her frequency of orgasm, since she does stop to tell me when things aren't working for her.

Mongrel · October 2014

The faith aspect certainly matters in your case. We have a section for that (and I always enjoy a rollicking debate about religion, but this isn't the place) where you can examine your differences perhaps more deeply and pull in a different group of respondents. 'Nice girl' issues are also discussed in the threads "No More Christian Nice Girl" in the faith and spirituality section. You may find those helpful. Guilt is justified only when a person has actually done something wrong. The key, therefore, is what your wife believes she did that was blasphemous. Most religious leaders will tell you that as long as you are doing it with your spouse and it doesn't hurt either party it's usually not a problem. I equate talking dirty to reading lines in a play; we may not really mean the words in a factual sense but they are 'lies' that entertain or heighten the mood. There really is no harm in them, but that's an opinion. Saying more will just get me on a tirade about the hypocrisy in religion(s) and as I said, this is not the place.

zeroday · October 2014

Que rollo's. Saving the best posts. Dirty talking making her feel degraded 25 years later. How dirty could it have been? Sounds like it's a cop out

Angeline · October 2014

Remus said:

A few thoughts:

1) I'm not religious myself (and I'm pretty sure Athol isn't either?), but the MAP and red-pill tend to connect quite well with traditional belief systems since they feature a patriarchal god and other figures, and a general sense that the man is the leader of the family and that women should be submissive.

That could more accurately be worded as "if he is a strong and inspiring leader, his wife will likely follow." There is nothing in Athol's books or blog posts that say a woman should be submissive, just that many women will be if he is a strong enough presence, he also says that if a female Captain/male FO in truly working for a couple, there's not a thing wrong with it.

Angeline · October 2014

zeroday said:

Que rollo's. Saving the best posts. Dirty talking making her feel degraded 25 years later. How dirty could it have been? Sounds like it's a cop out

If it also made her feel degraded back then it isn' a cop-out. Trying to reinvent yourself as a virginal Good Girl is different than having actual abusive incidents she doesn't want to relive. She may need counseling, she may need a wakeup call, but it's way, way too early to release the manosphere on them with this sketchy amount if info.

@Majesty99, why does it have to be "put down" style of talk during sex? Why couldn't it be 'how hot this is' kind of talk? I'm not at all into the "who's my dirty little slut" kind of talk either, and I'm nobody's prude. In addition to it possibly being a legitimate rejection of past abuse, she might simply not like it, but you showing more passion and excitement would be welcomed.

Frank_London · October 2014

There are two separate issues here around your wife's sexuality.
Issue one: hard boundaries related to religion
Issue two: enjoyment and motivation to have sex.

She seems to have set some boundaries about what she is and isn't willing to do, and that's different than what she did long ago before she got very religious. That's fine. people are entitled to their boundaries. What I'm wondering is why this is a live issue... presumably you don't like her boundaries, and you'd like to push them back. And presumably it gets discussed.

The second issue is the lack of interesting sex in general and lack of her motivation to do it, and engagement when she does do it. Based on your description of sex it certainly sounds like she might be faking what little enjoyment she does have. That's got nothing to do with boundaries and everything to do with desire and attraction.

So the boundaries are something you might not be able to work with but you can fix the desire. But again - I'm really not sure why this old relationship is such a live issue. In what context does it come up?

Reborn · October 2014

I also wonder whether she felt slightly like she was out of control: that somehow events took hold and she should have been stronger to not go as far as she did with her ex-boyfriend then.

It sounds like this is it. She has learned that she CAN lose control, and doesn't want to again.

I suspect the "christian faith prohibits it" is a rationalisation for the above.
If she was into it, faith wouldn't stop her.

Reborn · October 2014

Majesty99 said:

I never meant to suggest she only offers me starfish sex. That would be rather unfair of me. She moves quite a lot during sex and I can tell she's trying to enjoy it. The trouble from my perspective is that it's all conducted essentially in silence. I struggle to tell when she is actually enjoying it and when it isn't happening for her: it's only right at the end that I discover she's cumming.

To me, that's YOUR half of the problem. Can you let go of your wish to get auditory feedback from her? Just enjoy yourself? It may be that she needs to focus inwardly to get to orgasm, that's not all that unusual, and your demands for "signal" may be a distraction. Let her do it her way?

Mongrel · October 2014

My W has her failings when it comes to girl game and sexing me up, but once she's in the sack she enjoys sex. Getting her to orgasm is pretty easy. Only in the last few years has she started to make 'noise' beyond the usual panting and gasping. I think @Reborn is correct when he says she may need to concentrate heavily when she's 'in the zone'. Only when W is ramping up for an orgasm will she be able to let go and actually voice words. She just doesn't have it in her/it's not natural. Typical exchange as I've tried to draw out her inner slut:

Me: "Is that good?"
Her: "Mmm-hmm"
Me: "You want it harder?"
Her: "Yes."
Me: "Tell me."
Her: "Harder."
Me: "No, tell me to fuck you harder."
Her: "Fuck me harder."

See the short answers? It's like pulling teeth, and a lot of work that is distracting to my own enjoyment. She's well aware that I want her to talk dirty (and I've told her she can be as nasty as she wants; I can handle it) but all she can manage/is comfortable with is "Ooooh, yeah" stuff. My wife is not a prude and will use the f-bomb outside the bedroom (infrequently) so it's not necessarily a 'good girl' thing. I believe she simply doesn't have it in her to be that vocal.

Now, you wife has done more in the past apparently (ever with you, or only with boyfriend X?). If she is being held back by something else in her head then you're not going to get this sort of vocal play. If talking dirty is something that takes her back to a time/place that makes her feel ashamed, it's going to be off the table. She may need professional counseling to slay that dragon.

stillasamountain · October 2014

Reborn said:
To me, that's YOUR half of the problem. Can you let go of your wish to get auditory feedback from her? Just enjoy yourself? It may be that she needs to focus inwardly to get to orgasm, that's not all that unusual, and your demands for "signal" may be a distraction. Let her do it her way?

I had a very quiet girlfriend once. Bugged the shit out of me until I recalibrated to her baseline. After that, an indrawn breath became a gasp, a whimper became a shout. She came, I came, it was all good.

Majesty99 · October 2014

Thank you all for the many comments above. Quite a few have been sufficiently insightful to make me move towards working out what the next steps in my MAP should be.

@Reborn is quite right that I must let go of my wish for auditory feedback and I must focus on just enjoying myself. I think one issue is that I want to express myself quite vocally too and I think I've allowed my wife's boundaries to influence the boundaries I've inflicted upon myself... boundaries with which I feel myself frustrated.

@Angeline's question about whether it needs to be "put down" talk is also on the money. I don't know if I'm bothered whether she'll let me call her "my little slut". I think what I would like to tell her is what a gorgeous little pussy she has and I think I'm holding back because I think it might result in game over. I'm wondering whether I just try expressing my enjoyment of her body without holding back so much. It might at least reveal how strongly she feels about that sort of talk...

... or might provoke a discussion about where we stand on such things.

Thinking back to what I've read in the MAP book, I guess I'm frustrated that she seems to be choosing to do what Athol refers to as "faking not having an orgasm"... but I guess the point is that I can't really change her behaviour and so this is her problem not mine?

Finally, I must also focus on the leader part of my role. Hmmm, next steps in the MAP are definitely calling...

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