SunDance's Intro and Triage

SunDance

In a previous thread, Athol suggested I should write a triage. I list it below, and apologize for its length. I have never written one because it is not in the books, seemed to lengthy, and I am a private person. But Athol is the man, and his program gets results.

I swallowed the Red Pill 5 years ago and discovered MMSL while devouring the Manosphere and learning Game. I have read both books, and mapped, I will post my MAP soon. My issues in my marriage is my wife's obesity, her low sex drive with semen aversion, lack of attention to the kids with her focusing on her dogs and hobbies, lack of house work and cooking. She has not really upped her girl game much despite my increase in SMV. If we were dating I would have nexted her 13 years ago. I wonder if by increasing my rank above hers I am causing her to hope for the best while not closing the gap because it is to wide.

I also wonder if my expectations may be to high. If it is, please let me know. Our sexual frequency averages between 4.5 to 5 times a week. She would give me sex everyday if I wanted it, but her limit is once per day. She is easy to talk into a hand job if I want it twice. What is off the table is blow jobs, and other positions beside missionary. She complains about her hips hurting. She has a bit of semen aversion, but is OK sometimes with me cumming on her belly or tits. She prefers not for me to cum on her, but in her. She gets very wet easily and is reactive to sex, and rarely initiates. She is very quite during sex and is the perfect starfish. She does not like to make eye contact unless I tell her so. I was thinking the lack of eye contact was due to her checking out during sex, but it may be a submissive gesture.

Question One – Basic Questions

I am 59 and my spouse is 52 years old. We were married 17 years ago and were together for four years before that. We have two sons, 16 and 13 years old. I weigh 193 lbs, 5'11” at 14% body fat, while the wife is 5'6”, 192 lbs and under 45% bf. I am tanned, fit, with good social skills.

Question Two – Rule Out Medical

I cannot rule out medical. I receive hormone replacement therapy for about the last 11 months. I account this for my physical fitness gains I have made this year. I have been lifting for the last 7 years. My testosterone levels were on the low range, but I had all the symptoms of low testosterone. I feel great now. I had to find another doctor out of town for my HRT and pay cash. It is worth the hassle and every dime.

My wife is going through menopause and may have a messed up endocrine system. My clueless doctor has said nothing is wrong with her and she opposes any hormone replacement therapy. I have tried to talk to her about it, but she is dead set against it. She has a low drive libido while my is high. Maybe it is hopeless? I am always trying to figure my way around this, which accounts for my shortcuts I post on the MMSL forum. Also, she has no problem getting very wet when we fool around, so her lizard brain is working fine.

Question Three – Rule Out Structural Attraction Issues

I am financially independent and do not work an 8 to 5 job. I took an early retirement seven years ago and have a large nest egg I have not touched yet. I do temp work at times for extra money, play the market a bit, and always seem to pick up a few bucks here and there. I tend to make more money than when I worked full time, however, I have had a few years when I made less. I tend to out earn her while having my freedom. Pre MAP I was in a vampire work situation for about 17 years, thus the retirement. My SMV took a hit to her when I retired, since I was no longer the leader who got things done, but my retirement has been very successful. I live behind the Redwood Curtain (Humboldt county) which is a fantastic place to live except for the prevalent marijuana culture. I have no problems that developed post marriage. Prior to MAP I was overweight with a bf of 25 -27%, whiny because I was miserable at home and work, but always had enough money. I carry no debt other than a little bit on the mortgage, she carries about $6,000 on her credit card.

My wife is also a fisheries biologist who received one of my old jobs if I agreed to a promotion to a spot where they needed my expertise. This was great because she was pregnant, living it a trailer about 2.5 hours away.

For my age, I draw quite a bit of interest from other women and I put my SMV quite a bit above hers. I have developed good game as a result of the MAP over the last few years, learned to swing dance, dress better, make money, have lots of time freedom, and lost quite a bit of fat while packing on muscle. If she was not obese and dressed better, she would be hotter. She lacks girl game.

SunDance

Question Four – Rule Out Critical Moments and Neglect

I am a slight introvert, INTJ personality type, so I cannot rule out any critical moments of neglect. However, I never consciously neglected her. She has never indicated I neglected her and tended to hover around her to much prior to the MAP. We both are very affectionate to each other.

Question Five – Rule Out Outside Sexual Sources

I used to watch porn and masturbate occasionally. My wife did not mind this outlet. It never became a problem. However, I stopped it as part of my MAP. Also, real sex is better to me than virtual so my outlet is my wife. Prior to MAP she suggested I get a girlfriend to fill my sexual needs, but since has changed her mind post MAP. Dread game works really good on her (evil smirk). I have snooped around to see if she is having an affair, I have found nothing.

Question Six – When Did the Sex Go Bad?

The sex went bad after the birth of our second son. This is when she also became obese, depressed, lazy, and bitchy. But since the MAP she is off the depressants, productive at times around the house, and has a positive attitude. The sex quality has picked up during the last year.

Question Seven – What Was the Sex Like at the Start of the Relationship?

The sex was pretty good and often. She has really developed good hand job skills, but now has semen aversion. A few blow jobs before marriage, then they stopped after-wards.

Question Eight – What’s the Elephant in the Room?

Here is what we do not talk about. I think that qualifies as an elephant.

Her: My wife's bisexuality. My wife is bisexual and had a lesbian relationship prior to me. I have snooped around thinking she was having an affair, but came up with nothing. She told me she can be emotionally close to women over men, but cannot orgasm with them. She was raised in a feminist man hating household with a single mom and 4 other sisters. Her mom had two nasty divorces. In the first one, she got pregnant by a neighbor and had the first husband make child support payments for her. The first husband was furious and a vicious divorce battle ensued. She is not close with her Dad and he is very self centered, so he probably was a jerk. The second divorce was also ugly. There is diagnosed bat shit crazy in her family. One aunt is institutionalized, one sister is diagnosed and is on disability, and I believe her mom was either borderline personality or bi polar. Her older sister divorced raped her husband while having an affair with another woman. All this was hidden from me while I was dating my wife, they took great care to pretend to be the perfect family to me.

Mine: I used to spin plates, party, smoke daily pot, and occasionally binge on cocaine prior to moving where I live now (1989). I gave all that up in 1992 because I could not function as a fisheries biologist, became to old for that lifestyle, and was feeling sick every day. I was a typical stoner.

Another elephant is I was going to divorce her about 7 years ago. My dad freaked out because he is crazy about his grandsons and wanted me to promise to stay in the marriage. His parents divorced when he was young and it messed him up. I promised him. He passed away last February.

Question Nine – Who is the Leader in your Marriage?

I used to be and am now. I thought that the proper way in a marriage is co-leadership. I let my wife make decisions I knew were wrong just because I thought I should be political correct. I worked for the government and had that shit shoveled down my throat there and at the University.

Question Ten – Tell Us About the Good Times

Good times were quite fun since we were both outdoor enthusiasts. We fished, camped, hunted, and visited Alaska twice. I worked for the state Fish and Game department and she was a temporary worker there. We both hung out on camps on the river trapping and tagging adult salmon I did not have time to spin plates (well maybe a few) and was quite happy with her and my career, and out activities

We do not do these things anymore. She takes separate vacation pursuing titles for her dogs, violin making, and home brewing. I will vacation and travel. One of us remains at home with the kids.

Conclusion

Despite the time and length, I am glad I wrote this. My wife is gone for a dog show this week leaving me time to decide if I was going to go for a divorce or not. I have visited a lawyer for advice and could quite easily divorce her without to much damage to my assests. But, after writing this I am feeling it may be better to give her more time . I am in Phase 5 and have begun to withdrawn support from her which is responding to very well. Surprised me. If she fades back to as it was, I plan to move out temporarily, present paperwork from a lawyer protecting my interest, and then proceed with a divorce if comes to that.

Thank you if you are still reading this. I know it is very long.

SignorePillolaRossa

good write up
yeah, seems like you're running the MAP through its proper phases more or less ... i feel bad for your kids if she's as crappy a mom as she is a wife ... i hope you have a tight bond with them so they can count on you for all they can't count on her for

how did she respond to your list of expectations in phase 4? what exactly did you present as your expectations?

 if she hasnt responded to a list of expectations favorably, then i guess you'll get to A/B pretty soon

best of luck

SunDance

@SignorePillolaRossa‌

My expectations were for her to lose weight, and a better sex life. She did not respond well verbally. She got pretty mad. Saying she would lose 50 lbs after I left, and saying she would just get another dog. But, I can never go with what she says. Especially about sex. But she is making effort to lose weight, but still eats some crap, and is making somewhat an effort in bed. I do not know if she is just stringing me along or is really making an effort. She does keep me informed of her weight loss progress and paying off her credit card.

SignorePillolaRossa

i see - shame she didnt respond better

so what do you want to happen? i am not getting a sense that you really even want to be married to her any more (which i totally understand from what you've written - no negative judgement implied) ... is there some core of a relationship between you two taht you want to preserve / revive / expand?

SunDance

@SignorePillolaRossa‌
I do have a sense that I do not want to really be married to her. I feel like I should give up and move on with my life. She does enough improvement just to keep me around and then takes off on her own ....again, leaving me with the kids and house. I am thinking of moving out in order withdraw support and doing a soft next on her. Thereby creating space for my new life.

We still do have a core relationship together, is just seem supplanted by her dog fixation. She is an ENTP type which means she is always involved in making something happen and would suffer it she did not have an outlet.

What do you think of me moving out? Or is that a wrong move in the MMSL plan? I was going to get a lawyer to draft an agreement maintaining my interests in the house.

SignorePillolaRossa

i am the wrong guy to ask as i've never walked a mile in those shoes ... but i default to never moving out until it's legally over (i.e. with signed papers)  ... i think you need to see a lawyer, for sure ... and you have to get to a point where you're fully solid on how your sons will be cared for - sounds like they need you A LOT given the crap hand they've been dealt in the mom department ... hell, maybe you can get full custody if she is such a crappy mom ... 

seems to me that there might still be room for a MAP that you run to be awesome and then present her with a detailed A/B that includes your expectations of her bringing her hobbies / dogs into proper balance with her family / marital duties ... maybe you can step up and plan activities for all 4 of you that will be enough outlet for her to choose to engage in instead of going off solo ... 

good luck

SMan

@SunDance said:

@SignorePillolaRossa‌
What do you think of me moving out? Or is that a wrong move

@SunDance,

In the family law environment of America, the man moving out is a big tactical mistake.

Don't do it!

Don't blindly follow society's blue pill meme that the provider guy has to pander to the princess, and when things go bad "the man always moves out."

This is BS, and lack of assertiveness will damage your life and your children's .

Even more than in most areas of law . . . in family law possession is 9/10ths of the law!

The tendency of family courts is overwhelmingly to rubber stamp the status quo.

If the kids are going to a local school, the judge will favor ordering to leave them in the house they're living in.

If the STBX wife is in the house, the judge will be inclined to leave her there.

Primary custody will tend to go to the parent who is perceived to be in charge of the children the majority of the time. (Note I said "perceived." That may be different from "reality," but if the woman is living in the same house as the kids and you're not, you've got a huge burden of proof to make to the judge that you're the primary caregiver.)

Remember this: Perception is everything.

1. You've already said she's not meeting the needs of the children
2. She's spending time with her animals in  preference to them
3. She's a slob

If you are truly concerned about their welfare, why would you leave them under the "care" (or lack thereof) of a woman who is obviously unwilling or incapable of caring for them properly?

Hard words- but this is exactly what will be going through the mind of a family court judge.

You need to be assertive and proactive.

Intervene to optimize the care and providing for your children by kicking her out and providing the care and discipline the children need. For real.

This needs to be the status quo the family court leaves in place.

SMan

@SunDance,

To continue, there's another aspect to the "guy leaving the house" that's important.

It's hugely betaizing.

Women want to see a man who "stands up for himself"

This is important to their perception of your Alphaness (or lack thereof.)

Putting her on a pedestal by pandering to her when she's been badly behaved is the opposite of standing up for yourself, and lowers your SMV in her subconscious eyes.

Also, it's obvious from your description this far, that she's starting to get woken up by the changes you're making.

Issuing a wake-up call by delivering consequences (out of the house, seeing the reality of life out in the cruel hard world with just her dogs) will continue her development and may result in a turnaround.

Spoiling her by not delivering consequences for her bad behavior, and failing to provide for the needs of your children by abandoning them to her inferior care will arrest her development.

Remember the prime rule of relationship management:

"Reward the good and never reward the bad"

SunDance

@SMan‌
Yup, I researched it up. Do not move out. Great advice, I am staying. Bad move even considering moving out, and I have to admit I wanted to move out to fuck around a bit and avoid the work in staying. WTF was I thinking?

Funny you mentioned reward the good and never the bad. I have been doing that the last few weeks and it is working quite amazing. Also, I pretty much started to move things the way I want them to go according to my MAP, and she fell quietly behind me. I just started using subtle leadership and it worked with no complaints. Talking just does not work with her when it comes to sex or resources, but action sure does.

Thanks, you are right on!