A little help here...

BigDaDiesel

I need advice please.  This morning I came into the bedroom after showering. My wife was in the bed on my phone.  Long story short,  she became irate after reading a convo between my pastor and me.  In it I said I was looking for some counseling cuz I felt like I wanted to leave.  This was some weeks ago mind you.  Anyway in her anger she went through my pictures and started deleting pictures of the two of us. I demanded she give me my phone and tell me what the heck was going on.  She told me she read the texts.  She was upset that I felt that way and that I never shared this feeling with her.  So now despite my heartfelt explanations about how I said that in frustration due to recent arguments, she can't get beyond the statement.  I tried touching her arm during the convo and she snatched away like I was trying to rape her or something. So then she said "I'm going to take that statement and act and plan accordingly.  You should do the same. " Then no more talking.  I git ready for my appointment this morning abs was going to leave without saying anything,  but I asked for a hug.  She looked at me like I was crazy.  But I wanted that departing hug.  They're important.  After much coaxing and finally saying "I've at least earned a hug", she leaned her shoulder in and let me embrace.  She didn't return it tho. I then said "I love you". She responded with "hmph! "  I said it again and then waited for her to reply.  She said "I know.  Hmph!" Then I said "do you love me? " Not looking at me,  she replied "yeah.  You know I do. " I said then "you need to say it." So she said it flippantly with a little chuckle at the end.  At that point I left. 

Knowing my wife,  this is going to drag on indefinitely until she feels like acting right.  Now that I'm an MMSL mapping man,  how do I respond in this situation?  Typically I'd push her for a resolution...to stop being mean and unreasonable.  You know,  NAGGING.  Please advise me. Please.  I'm trying to fight my natural inclination to be angry and bitter. 

Angeline

You were looking for support from your pastor, not drawing up papers with your attorney. You're trying to make it work, because of course the marriage is not perfect, but not just giving up and leaving, so get over it.

That should be your terse, short statement the next time it comes up, which should be later today if she continues to complain about it.

Some people move through the phases and have a progression of steps, some people have the timetable thrust upon them. 

If your natural inclination is to be angry and bitter, don't be surprised if that is what gets reflected back at you, but someone has to break the pattern. You can choose to be angry, or you can demonstrate that the commitment to the new, awesome you is for real, not just when things are going well.

AlphaZulu

@BigDaDiesel,

Dealing with someone who's trying to be pissy is a tough situation. My old natural inclination was to be pissy back or go full-on beta appeaser. ("Please don't be mad. You love me, don't you? Give me a hug.") In the past, both of these reactions just made my situation worse.

I'd suggest keeping a strong positive mindset. Rise above the pissyness and just act awesome. For me, it's easiest if I pretend I'm dealing with a tantrum-prone child. I imagine that I'm having a fantastic day and some random 5-year old girl comes up to me and yells, "You're a stupid-head."

I would react to this child with amusement. I wouldn't try to reason with her. I wouldn't yell back. I wouldn't return the insult. I'd smile big and say something amusing. "Did I put on my stupid head this morning? [Feel head with hands.] I thought I was wearing the goofy head today!"

If my wife were trying to stay mad at me and refused to give me a hug, I'd go into cocky/funny (CF) mode . . . "What, no hug for your incredible hubby? [Stick out fist] How about a passionate fist-bump? [she rolls her eyes] OK, let's try an intimate wave from across the room. [It's obvious that she wants to leave without giving me the satisfaction of being amused by my antics.] Maybe you should just leave without saying anything. If you stick around too long my good mood will rub off on you and ruin the crappy day you have planned."

Don't try to win the moment. Getting the hug or the "I love you" is not the goal. Your goal is to send this message: I'm awesome, I'm not controlled by your pissy moods, and you can't use relationship drama to get me to pursue you.

Hope this helps!

BigDaDiesel

@Angeline ;
Thanks for the advice.  I don't think that it'll come up again if history is any indicator.  She will likely just give the child silent treatment and speak to me when it is absolutely necessary.  Like about the kids' needs or something.  Otherwise it's the old cold shoulder and lots of nasty mean looks.  If she happens to say anything it is filled with venom.  
 
Of course who wants to deal with that?  She is so emotionally driven.  Anything that makes sense or that is reasonable goes out the window in times like these. It's the mountain out of a molehill effect. Anyone else with a clear head would see this as something to discuss and settle.  She will grow it into a monster and run with it.  And I am left suffer the onslaught.  

So to practice OI and staying in frame is a real challenge.  I agree with you that I need to be awesome and stick with that mode. I'm just saying that it is tough because I have to fight back the desire to go at her and challenge her evilness. Like @AlphaZulu‌ said "Dealing with someone who's trying to be pissy is a tough situation." She is the master of PISSY.  I'm just not ready for the ignoring and bitchassedness that will be going on for however long she decides to keep it up. Ugh! 

I'll just keep reading MAP and putting the concepts into practice.  I'm new to this whole thing so I'm having trouble. 

Tiger

BigD,

There are a huge number of Displays of Low Value (DLVs) in here, let me show you how I think this should have been handled.

BigDaDiesel said:

I need advice please.  This morning I came into the bedroom after showering. My wife was in the bed on my phone.  Long story short,  she became irate after reading a convo between my pastor and me.  In it I said I was looking for some counseling cuz I felt like I wanted to leave.  This was some weeks ago mind you.

Nothing wrong so far, it's perfectly reasonable for you to have your own feelings, and seek to work through those feelings with your pastor.  That's normal and healthy and what adults do.

Anyway in her anger...

It's also okay for her to be hurt and angry.  Seeing your spouse have misgivings about your relationship cuts straight to the bone.  Discovering that is gonna hurt and anger is a natural defensive response.  You need to allow her to have her feelings, don't try to belittle or negate them.  They are actually not bad at all. The fact that she is hurt that you are questioning the relationship means she considers it valuable.  That's a good thing.

she went through my pictures and started deleting pictures of the two of us. I demanded she give me my phone and tell me what the heck was going on.  She told me she read the texts.  She was upset that I felt that way and that I never shared this feeling with her.

At this point I would acknowledge her anger and hurt, but my first reaction would be to call her out for deleting my photos.  That kind of childish acting out is a fitness test.

"Deleting photos of the two of us from my phone is not okay.  Those pictures were important to me and for you destroy them is disrespectful.  As a consequence of your action, I'm going to put a password lock on my phone. Not to keep you from looking at it, but because you chose to vandalize it."

So now despite my heartfelt explanations about how I said that in frustration due to recent arguments...

That kind of pandering is weak.  There is absolutely nothing wrong with you feeling the way you did, own your part of it, but be mindful that she had a part in it as well, by taking this all on yourself you are strenthing her internal hamster who wants to make this all about you.  It's actually about both of you, isn't it?

she can't get beyond the statement.

Sure she can, and if she uses it to tear down the marriage rather than as a warning shot that there are problems and she should be trying to fix or improve something that has value to her, that's on her.  She's an adult.  This is not to say that you cannot lead her in the direction you want her to go.

 I tried touching her arm during the convo and she snatched away like I was trying to rape her or something. So then she said "I'm going to take that statement and act and plan accordingly.  You should do the same. " Then no more talking.  I git ready for my appointment this morning abs was going to leave without saying anything,  but I asked for a hug.  She looked at me like I was crazy.  But I wanted that departing hug.  They're important.  After much coaxing and finally saying "I've at least earned a hug", she leaned her shoulder in and let me embrace.  She didn't return it tho. I then said "I love you". She responded with "hmph! "  I said it again and then waited for her to reply.  She said "I know.  Hmph!" Then I said "do you love me? " Not looking at me,  she replied "yeah.  You know I do. " I said then "you need to say it." So she said it flippantly with a little chuckle at the end.  At that point I left.

This is all a huge series of DLVs.  Stand up for yourself man.  You did nothing wrong, you sought counsel from an expert to help you work through your feelings to try to rebuild and strengthen the marriage.  That is good, and right, and noble and nothing to apologize for.

She doesn't get to decide what you feelings are.

Knowing my wife,  this is going to drag on indefinitely until she feels like acting right.  Now that I'm an MMSL mapping man,  how do I respond in this situation? Typically I'd push her for a resolution...to stop being mean and unreasonable. You know,  NAGGING.

Oh god no.

Please advise me. Please.  I'm trying to fight my natural inclination to be angry and bitter. 

I'll think about how best to manage this from here.  All of this can be fixed, but it makes it abundantly clear that you are deep in phase 1, she has all the power in the relationship and you are orbiting her.  It is no surprise that there are attraction issues here.

BigDaDiesel

@Tiger‌ Thanks for the candid comments. You are absolutely right. The whole day I've been thinking about how I was DLV. She does have all the power in the relationship and I am orbiting.  That's why I'm reaching out in this manner.  I want the power and control and I'm tired of DLV and orbiting.  On a positive note, I did check her strongly for deleting the pictures.  I told her it was immature and unacceptable. I also told her I wasn't apologising for seeking counsel.   Earlier today we went to a pre-planned marriage workshop. She didn't talk but she was in attendance.  Tonight we had a ballroom dance lesson class.  I was on time and texted her that I expected her to show.  She came late to the class but looked she was going to vomit everytime I touched her during the lesson.  At first I just wanted to walk out because of how she was acting.  But I ignored it and kept dancing.  Afterwards I walked her to the car and she slammed the door in my face when I was talking to her about picking up the kids.  I made a roll down the window gesture and told her that was not cool and that I wouldn't stand for that kind of disrespect.  She said I "should get used to it since you want to leave so bad." I'm confused as to why she'd attend these functions but still keep up the evilness.

Anyway,  please think on it and get back to me.  Like I said, I need to wrest the control of the relationship from her cuz this is killing me being in this position. 

Frank_London

Stop asking for hugs,
Stop asking if she loves you.
Stop trying to have heartfelt talks about it.

These behaviors are basically ground zero for MMSL - they are the first thing that you should get rid of, even under normal circumstances. Right now, in this situation, they are fuel on the fire.

You're under pressure and you're reverting to form and natural tendencies; that's understandable but you must resist. You can't talk your way out of this. You can't convince her to forget it and go back to how she was yesterday.

This is a crisis and you need to respond accordingly.

BigDaDiesel

Frank_London said:

Stop asking for hugs,
Stop asking if she loves you.
Stop trying to have heartfelt talks about it.

Ok. I will.  I'll just let her be and I won't bring it up. 

These behaviors are basically ground zero for MMSL - they are the first thing that you should get rid of, even under normal circumstances. Right now, in this situation, they are fuel on the fire.

I see that.  You are absolutely correct.  It's not doing anything to help.

You're under pressure and you're reverting to form and natural tendencies; that's understandable but you must resist. You can't talk your way out of this. You can't convince her to forget it and go back to how she was yesterday.

Again,  you are SO on point.  I can't control or manipulate her to act right through trying to engage her in a conversation about it.  It only makes her act more juvenile. 

This is a crisis and you need to respond accordingly.

I'm not sure how to respond accordingly. The only thing I can think of is to ignore it and just walk around in the silence until she is ready to act right. I should just go about s normal routine and try my hardest not to get sucked into her shenanigans. Any other suggestions? 

Tiger

At the root you will need to do the work to figure out a MAP and improve yourself, much of that will be internal work on yourself and doing that work rather than talking with your wife about the fact that you need to do that work is the right approach.

However, I think there is real value in communication, in this instance I would make an attempt to redirect your wife's hurt and anger toward something productive through communication.

Sometime tomorrow, I would find a time to have a brief discussion along these lines.

1. You understand that she is hurt by what you expressed to the pastor, but those feelings were real and you believe that trying to work those out with your pastor was a reasonable thing to do.
2. As a part of that introspection you have come to realize that this marriage is valuable to you and you are committed to doing the work to make it better.
3. At this point she has a decision to make, she can either give up and push you away, or she can work with you to make the marriage better.
4. You don't need or expect a decision right away, but one of the things you have learned is that you (BigD) have work to do on yourself.  So while she works out how she feels you are going to work on yourself.

Then pause and give her a chance to speak, if she feels the need to talk then listen, don't try to fix things, just listen.

"Thank you for telling me how you feel, you have given me a lot to think about."
You might add in.
"We'll get through this, everything will be okay."

Or if she's quiet and has nothing to say.

"Okay, when you are ready to talk, you know where to find me."

When she eventually comes to you to talk then listen, don't try to fix it and then use the "lot to think about" ending I gave above.

At the end of the day, nothing you will say is going to fix this, the best you can do is deflect her from angry and distant to scared and not sure what to do.  The most important point of the entire discussion with her is #2. She's feeling along right now, you need to offer her a way back in.  You want to give her hope that this can be saved and to ally her fears that you are about to kick her to the curb.  The other thing you need here is a calm reassuring tone.  She needs to see you be strong, capable, and confident.

Then after all that you need to MAP hard, take your two or three big red areas and start working on those.  Taking action to improve yourself is the most important thing.  Your marriage can no longer stay in the place that it was, it can either get better or get worse. This unfortunate incident kinda threw a wrench in the old steady state.

Frank_London

Tiger said:

Sometime tomorrow, I would find a time to have a brief discussion along these lines.

1. You understand that she is hurt by what you expressed to the pastor, but those feelings were real and you believe that trying to work those out with your pastor was a reasonable thing to do.
   

Yeah, that's important: own it.
You've been unhappy. Yes, you have, and you should look her in the eye and tell her it's true. You tried to hide it from her but she knows now, so don't pretend it's not true.

Tiger said:

2. As a part of that introspection you have come to realize that this marriage is valuable to you and you are committed to doing the work to make it better.

I'm not sure BigDaDiesel should be too reassuring.
A bit of dread might be appropriate here. After all, it's not being faked. It's real.

BDD's strategy so far in dealing with this has been reassurance to the max, and wife is pretty much calling bullshit on that. It's time for the pendulum to swing a bit the other way; this is a crisis for her too, and she needs to feel it.

Right now her strategy is to win the staring competition and just wait until he blinks (e.g., asks for a hug). That's worked every time so far. She's turning this from marital problem into "husband did something wrong and he must beg for forgiveness."

I don't know, but this might be BDD's time for issuing a statement of expectations.

Tiger

Frank,

I'm concerned that he's just starting out.  The Reassurance is to calm her down and give him time to increase his value by running his MAP.

I do not think this is a time for a statement of expectations, that's phase 4, I believe he needs to run the MAP, gain confidence, get to phase 3 and then think about a statement of expectations.  Doing it too early will not go well, IMHO.

Olddog

Tiger said:

Frank,

I'm concerned that he's just starting out.  The Reassurance is to calm her down and give him time to increase his value by running his MAP.

I do not think this is a time for a statement of expectations, that's phase 4, I believe he needs to run the MAP, gain confidence, get to phase 3 and then think about a statement of expectations.  Doing it too early will not go well, IMHO.

I agree with Tiger.

Reading those texts may have been the first 2x4 to her head that really registered, and she should be given some time to process it.

Beta is not the worst move he can make while he works on his map - I'd say dread would be. That's just going to escalate it IMO.

Frank_London

Olddog said:

I agree with Tiger.

Reading those texts may have been the first 2x4 to her head that really registered, and she should be given some time to process it.

Beta is not the worst move he can make while he works on his map - I'd say dread would be. That's just going to escalate it IMO.

It's too late to worry about whether dread is a good idea or bad idea.
Dread's arrived.
She got dread when she saw the emails.
BDD is trying to convince her to ignore it, but that strategy doesn't sound like it's working.

There are two separate things going on for BDD.
1. mapping, a long term project;
2. the fallout of the wife discovering the messages. That's something he needs to deal with immediately.

BigDaDiesel

I believe a demand or something like that will just escalate things.  She'll just say I can leave then just to spite me. She's prideful and won't acquiesce,  especially when she is upset. She needs to be in a calmed state to hear reason. 

446

I think the most important thing is that she needs to learn to calm herself. (Self-soothe) It isn't @BigDaDiesel‌ 's job to calm her down.  

She he needs to know that he is committed to the relationship but if she chooses to blow it up that's on her.  She needs to know that he is committed to doing things to build up the  relationship, but if she acts like an ass he will be "consequence ". 

I I think a one hour call to Athol would work well here. Specific strategies for dealing with this desire to punish you. 

Edited for spelling 

Tiger

Too much talk about her, you can't fix her while you are in phase 1.

Nothing is going to get better until BigDaDiesel starts to run a MAP and can move himself into phase 2 or 3.  He has given her all the power in the relationship, so she is simply doing whatever the heck she feels without worrying about the consequences. Given the current relationship dynamic her behavior is entirely rational.  One cannot fix that kind of behavior until the other party has a reason to change.

You can't change your partner from phase 1.  The only thing you can do from here is to work on yourself until you are in phase 2 or 3.

AV8or

BigDaDiesel said:

I believe a demand or something like that will just escalate things.  She'll just say I can leave then just to spite me. She's prideful and won't acquiesce,  especially when she is upset. She needs to be in a calmed state to hear reason. 

BDD....

Hearing reason is not what she needs.....

Seeing you act like a man who wants to solve some marital problems is what she needs...

You will get absolutely nowhere trying to reason her into anything.... and don't demand anything... like Tiger says above, you are super early in phase 1...

Do what you need to do, and she will notice you being all manly...

I think it is likely a bit of a good sign that she gets upset enough to delete some pictures, as it indicates you may be shaking up the tight control she thinks she has....




How would this have gone..... 

Her... what are these texts with your pastor ?

You... hey babe I probably should have been more open about the pastor thing, but we need some help, as you know, and I am working on that...

Her... starts the deleting....

You... Seriously babe ? (Incredulous tone).... and that's all you say... no more talking.... 

STFU..... OI..... get dressed, carry on with your day.

No asking for hugs or kisses.

No trying for normal or to help her out or to bring her around or 'reason'.....

What IS normal and good, is to be a leader working on fixing things.... what's a few pictures deleted... she doesn't control you...

You are working on being awesome, and she is welcome to join in...... but you're going anyhow...

never_again

BigDaDiesel said: Tonight we had a ballroom dance lesson class.  I was on time and texted her that I expected her to show.  She came late to the class but looked she was going to vomit everytime I touched her during the lesson.  At first I just wanted to walk out because of how she was acting.  But I ignored it and kept dancing.  Afterwards I walked her to the car and she slammed the door in my face when I was talking to her about picking up the kids.  I made a roll down the window gesture and told her that was not cool and that I wouldn't stand for that kind of disrespect.  She said I "should get used to it since you want to leave so bad." I'm confused as to why she'd attend these functions but still keep up the evilness.

 

Because she's found a big damn stick she can beat you with and she's going to keep whacking away with it to see what reaction she'll get.  Just another fitness test.  Her "you should get used to it" statement says it all.

Tennee

@never_again said:

@BigDaDiesel said: Tonight we had a ballroom dance lesson class.  I was on time and texted her that I expected her to show.  She came late to the class but looked she was going to vomit everytime I touched her during the lesson.  At first I just wanted to walk out because of how she was acting.  But I ignored it and kept dancing.  Afterwards I walked her to the car and she slammed the door in my face when I was talking to her about picking up the kids.  I made a roll down the window gesture and told her that was not cool and that I wouldn't stand for that kind of disrespect.  She said I "should get used to it since you want to leave so bad." I'm confused as to why she'd attend these functions but still keep up the evilness.

 

Because she's found a big damn stick she can beat you with and she's going to keep whacking away with it to see what reaction she'll get.  Just another fitness test.  Her "you should get used to it" statement says it all.

Yup.  Prepare for more of this, and prepare to handle it.  Two things.  First, clearly, calmly, and matter-of-factly state that you will not tolerate 5-year old behavior - I once told W quite some time ago "We do not slam doors in this house, we do not scream and yell" in much the same tone as I did with Kiddo when she was actually 5.  Every time she wants to go there, shut it down.  Do not stand for that foolishness; you're adults and you'll handle problems in an adult fashion.  Second, as @tiger and @Frank_London‌ said:  you own it.  So own it.  But she doesn't get to whip you with it all the time and forever more.  A certain RedHead (hope you're doing well out there) once taught me this - mistakes I made, things I said, fuck-ups I made - own them.  They are not a tool to acquiesce you to a beating. 

The D word got thrown around way back, early on in my MAP.  I regretted it, but you can't put the genie back in the bottle.  You can likely fix it.    

Frank_London

I am also concerned by her 'punishing' behaviors.

She is punishing you for what she discovered. She did so at the time - deleting all your photos - and has been doing so ever since. She slammed the car door in your face, for example. This is just bullying, plain and simple, and your default response until now has been to placate her.
It's time to figure out a better way to respond.

Tiger said:

Nothing is going to get better until BigDaDiesel starts to run a MAP and can move himself into phase 2 or 3.

Standing up for himself is mapping.

BigDaDiesel

This is so much rich advice. Thanks to you all: @angeline @alphaZulu @Tiger @Frank_London @Tennee @never_again @AV8or @446 @olddog . You guys are awesome and your input has been super valuable. 

It is true, I have been placating for years because I was raised and taught to believe that is what men did in marriage. I have had to face the painful reality that I allowed the behavior to exist and grow and become monstrous. But that is the past, What is critical is what I do from here on out.

This weekend was brutal. The evil glares and snappy comments. I had to put my foot down though Sunday morning. I was going to get my haircut, with my 2 sons. I only mentioned however that I was about to leave for the barber. She went off saying I need to "man up" and handle my responsibilities. I knew the boys needed haircuts so why wasn't I taking them with me? She was just all petty and beliigerent. I calmly stated, "Number 1: Don't talk to me that way. I'm a grown man, NOT one of your kids. Stop being so pissy. I'm not standing for that anymore. Number 2: The boys are already in the truck." Then I left. I spent the rest of the day doing things for ME. I went to barber, then hung out with my buddy watching football games. The wife and I were supposed to attend an open house and a surprise birthday party, but I chose not to attend. I'm not sure if she went, but I wasn't about to freely expose myself to drama. It felt good to be doing my thing instead. Came home and got on the computer doing homework for the rest of the night. She stormed out and left to go somewhere after I came in. No biggie. Then she shot me a text asking why I didn't stop and get the kids anything to eat. Here's how it went:
Her: You didn't pick food up for kids? Yeah...I"LL do it

Me: If you needed me to do this, all you had to do is communicate that.

Her: I shouldn't have to request dinner for your CHILDREN! Or an other meal or household need.

Me. Thank you for covering dinner this time. I'll cover it next time.

I feel like this is a victory for me, because I wanted to match her tone and presentation, but chose to stay calm and not engage in an argument. What do you think? It turns out this was a huge fitness test, because my son came down shortly after and made spaghetti with food we already had in the house. She was just trying to get a rise out of me.
I have been reading MAP like a mad man all weekend. I started my A.M. workout regimen Saturday morning. I bought some new clothes Saturday evening. Now I am about to get into drafting this action plan so I can post it. This morning, the wife got up and made me coffee before I had to leave for work. So I guess she is starting to work through it. Nevertheless, I am going to forge ahead. Look for MAP to come soon. I'd appreciate your feedback.

Thanks again!
BigD