A little help here...

BigDaDiesel

OH! She also sent me a text this morning saying she went to our pastor and his wife ans asked them if they would counsel us to "repair the foundation issues we've left dormant. We need to pull some wisdom from you". WILDLY Ironic eh? I haven't responded. I don't even know what I'd say other than  "ok"...

Like @AV8or said, I am working on being awesome.

Olddog

Great work, don't engage in any argument! (Discussions, on the other hand, can be good. 'You've given me a lot to think about' can give you time to differentiate between the two.)

IMO, tho, from her POV, is she still adjusting to this new/recent behaviour on your part? (I'm feeling a weird need to compliment you on the fact you noticed it was time for haircuts...  ) )

How about you frame shit tests as her just wanting to know you are paying attention? You've got the basics covered, right? (Or working on it?)

Speaking as a mother, do not underestimate my need to feed people.   (That said, it's never too early for children to learn how to cook IMO. Kiddo making a meal in my house is not unusual.)

Glad you're going through the book. Follow the steps. (Even though seemingly simple, hard to execute! Stumbling not unusual - don't beat yourself up over it!)

BigDaDiesel

Thanks @Olddog‌ . Yep,  I'm working on myself continually.  Odd thing  happened yesterday: I told you she got up to make coffee for me.  After work she gave me a semi hug when I was on my way to class.  After class,  she was ignoring me again and went to bed without a word.  I was cool and just ignored the behaviour. THEN she came out about 30 minutes later to talk.  The talk consisted of her saying she was going to file for divorce and it didn't matter if I signed papers or not.  She said she's tired of the 21 year roller coaster. She's tired of fighting and tired of no growth in our marriage. She said I need to consider other living arrangements. Then she went back to bed.  I mostly just sat there and let her talk,  careful not to engage in a confrontation.  I did tell her AGAIN that I wasn't trying to leave her and that I wasn't moving out. I think the whole thing is a test.  She may actually feel like she wants a divorce, but I also think this was said to note my reaction.  At any rate,  I'm moving ahead with the MAP. I don't have the liberty to get drawn into this emotional hellfire.  I've got a bunch of reds to work on ASAP.

Tennee

Do.Not.Leave.The.House.   Hmmmmmm...smells test-ish to me, but I have no experience with this, so I shall leave this to the Wise Ones.  Is this the 'two' in a one-two combo with inviting herself to the counseling with the pastor?   I think she's trying to make this about her, direct you to PAY ATTENTION TO ME!!!  

That said, I'll get outta the way...

Persephone

BigDaDiesel said:

Thanks @Olddog‌ . Yep,  I'm working on myself continually.  Odd thing  happened yesterday: I told you she got up to make coffee for me.  After work she gave me a semi hug when I was on my way to class.  After class,  she was ignoring me again and went to bed without a word.  I was cool and just ignored the behaviour. THEN she came out about 30 minutes later to talk.  The talk consisted of her saying she was going to file for divorce and it didn't matter if I signed papers or not.  She said she's tired of the 21 year roller coaster. She's tired of fighting and tired of no growth in our marriage. She said I need to consider other living arrangements. Then she went back to bed.  I mostly just sat there and let her talk,  careful not to engage in a confrontation.  I did tell her AGAIN that I wasn't trying to leave her and that I wasn't moving out. I think the whole thing is a test.  She may actually feel like she wants a divorce, but I also think this was said to note my reaction.  At any rate,  I'm moving ahead with the MAP. I don't have the liberty to get drawn into this emotional hellfire.  I've got a bunch of reds to work on ASAP.

Actions vs words. You handled it well.

Just out of curiosity... is she the type to hug you one minute and divorce you the next?

BigDaDiesel

@Persephone : My wife is indeed the type to go from one extreme to the next with very little time in between. I don't believe she is mentally ill or anything, but I do believe that something is "off". But interestingly enough, she only treats her family this way. Friends never see it. @Tennee : Yes she does tend to make things about her and when she doesnt' get her way, she acts childish. Feelings are easily hurt and she retaliates in return. She wants to hurt back.

Persephone

BigDaDiesel said:

@Persephone : My wife is indeed the type to go from one extreme to the next with very little time in between. I don't believe she is mentally ill or anything, but I do believe that something is "off". But interestingly enough, she only treats her family this way. Friends never see it. @Tennee : Yes she does tend to make things about her and when she doesnt' get her way, she acts childish. Feelings are easily hurt and she retaliates in return. She wants to hurt back.

Your last post gives me the feeling of a woman working something out. I don't know if she's quite ready to pull the divorce trigger. I think that was more of a test, for both you and her, kinda rolling it around her mouth to see how it tastes. You passed. How have your interactions been since then?

BigDaDiesel

@Persephone : This morning she ignored me intensely. I said good morning when I arose and goodbye before I left for work. She said good morning back after I told her ignoring me wasn't acceptable. We're adults, we don't hate each other so there's no reason to play that game. The goodbye, I'll admit, was half-hearted on my part as my son and I were leaving out the door. I'm not sure she even heard it. Other than that, an e-mail in all caps letting me know that a deadline had passed for a school trip registration. I thought, "why didn't you just handle it if you were aware of the deadline??" But all I replied with was, "Thank you. I will take care of it." That has been the extent of the interaction. OH! She also sent me a text. The calendar reminder went off that tell the family I get off early on Mon and Wed. The event reminder popped up on her phone. It says "Go in early. Come Home early". She sent a text that said : "Do you have to come back here early? I got a calendar reminder." My previous self would have been questioning the question, trying to figure out her angle. Wondering why she was worried about me getting home earlier than usual. What was going on? Who does she have up in my house? The whole pitiful 9 yards...I just reminded her of the purpose of the alert. No contact since.

I do see that she has been speaking with the pastor and his wife today. I noticed it when checking the Sprint Bill usage this morning. I hope they are giving her wise counsel.

All in all I am working on removing myself from combative conversations and maintaining frame. Hard work becoming brand new.

Persephone

What kind of man is your pastor? Would you call him 'red pill' or 'blue pill'?

Good on you for maintaining frame. She's being disrespectful. Would your pastor call her on it?

BigDaDiesel

He is definitely red pill. He is one of the most "Alpha" guys I know. He would definitely call her on it. He doesn't pull punches.

BigDaDiesel

I feel like I am being a bit disingenuine in my home. I am walking around the house not talking. I am not going to bed when my wife does or at all. I am used to giving little gifts and treats throughout the week to my wife (I mean like picking up a Starbucks on the way home, or a bag of chips, or one of her fave magazines. Little Stuff like that.) Now it's like I can't be ME because she is tripping. If I say anything, I'll either be ignored or get a glare. If I do anything, it will probably be looked at as me trying to suck up. What is a guy supposed to DO or NOT DO in a situation when the wife has asked for a divorce? I don't want to mess the whole thing up. I understand the MAPPING part. I'm all over that. Do I remain the usual me, talking, helping around the house and with kids, cracking jokes? Or do I just back off and withdraw to do my own things while she gets her act together?

_io

@Scarlet‌, @Tiger‌, @BrianC‌, @Serenity‌ I think this needs to be moved to 911.  

My gut feeling is that she got her feelings hurt in a major way and is now being massively passive-aggressive in order to punish you.  However, people can do rash things when in the throes of emotion. 

You can't make it better, really.  You are both sincerely unhappy with the current state of your marriage.  MAPing will change that.  You just have to have a positive attitude while you're doing it.  In fact, that is a key part of the MAP.  Go read or re-read @ttugrad‌'s thread.  Classic example of how much can change by internalizing a new frame and taking responsibility for the emotional temperature of your household.

Tiger

 She said she's tired of the 21 year roller coaster. She's tired of fighting and tired of no growth in our marriage.

Nothing that you say is going to convince her that things are moving in a good direction. The best you can hope to achieve with talk is to get her to stick around a bit longer so that she can start to see the actions that you are taking.  It is the actions which make it clear that something is different.

Her throwing divorce into the conversation feels like a defensive reaction rather than an actual attempt to leave the marriage.  But all I'm working with is what you have written here.  Having said that one of the ways that you can show her very clearly that something is different is to show that you are not going to make divorce easy for her.  This is a somewhat risky strategy using a willingness to further escalate to make it clear that she's not in control.

"Honey, I've been thinking about the divorce issue that you brought up yesterday.  This hit me from out of the blue so I was not ready with a response. While I did discuss this in private communication with our pastor to help me find a way through my issues, actually telling your spouse that you are going to file for divorce is at a whole different level. My response to you is that I'm going to continue to try to improve this marriage, and am using all the tools at my disposal to do so. If you want to stick around and try with me great, if not you know where the door is.  No, I do not need to consider other living arrangements, this is my home. If you want to give up and leave that's on you, I'm not going to make it easy for you."

ETA: You need to listen to her response and then detach and deescalate things, possibly using "You have given me a lot to think about."

I think this strikes a pretty good balance of reassurance while not putting up with any shit from her. Another line that you can throw around to make her intention a bit more clear is "Do I need to contact an attorney?". 

Both of these are going to make the idea of divorce much more real and she might decide to walk things back a bit.

At some point when this gets sorted out you need to explain to her that bringing the word divorce into any conversation is invoking the nuclear option and is not productive.

Tiger

BigDaDiesel said:

I feel like I am being a bit disingenuine in my home. I am walking around the house not talking. I am not going to bed when my wife does or at all. I am used to giving little gifts and treats throughout the week to my wife (I mean like picking up a Starbucks on the way home, or a bag of chips, or one of her fave magazines. Little Stuff like that.) Now it's like I can't be ME because she is tripping. If I say anything, I'll either be ignored or get a glare. If I do anything, it will probably be looked at as me trying to suck up. What is a guy supposed to DO or NOT DO in a situation when the wife has asked for a divorce? I don't want to mess the whole thing up. I understand the MAPPING part. I'm all over that. Do I remain the usual me, talking, helping around the house and with kids, cracking jokes? Or do I just back off and withdraw to do my own things while she gets her act together?

It's only disingenuous if you accept her framing of the situation.

She's hurt, she's angry, she's scared.  All very reasonable responses to what she discovered on your phone.  The way through this is paved by you showing her that the world will not end, that sometimes the path to a better place takes you through some very difficult territory.

I think your mindset should be:

1. I am improving myself to be the best version of me that I can be.  That is not dependent on her stay or go I still need to be a better man.  I will keep doing things better and no matter how she acts, I have the day to day shit handled.
2. If she chooses to be all pissy then I'm going to not be as interested in doing nice things.  Getting nice things is a direct result of her working with you to create an environment in which you want to do nice things for her. If she's acting like a bitch don't treat her like a princess that's sending a terrible message.
3. Do not let your behavior depend on her attitude. Try to form a mental barrier to it, she's throwing a temper tantrum because she didn't get her way.  She's trying to use emotional manipulation to get you to change your behavior.  The only response is: "no pony".

spartacus

BigD, did you follow up with @tigers earlier advice? He has given you excellent advice, you'd do very well to listen. I don't see her consulting with your pastor as negative in this situation. But, you have to own #1 above, and clearly communicate your intentions.  i.e. what actions are you taking. Have you taken the lead on setting up counseling. Have you communicated your intentions of improving yourself. Proactive not reactive.

BigDaDiesel

@spartacus - Yes! I took @Tigers earlier advice and sat down with with briefly. I let her know that I found no wrong with reaching out to the Pastor for support. I let her know that I was in the marriage for the long haul and committed to doing my part to make things work out. I also told her going through my phone looking for dirt was not cool, expeially since I stay away from opposite sex situations that would cause her to not trust me. I then told her that we were both adults and should speak to each other like adults. Being mean and pissy wasn't going to cut it.  @Tiger's advice is seriously on point and I find it to be of great value.

I was also thinking WHY would my wife suddenly start being suspicious of me? Enough to snoop through my phone? It came to mind that I had started some of the basic Mapping. I'd been very careful to dress like a winner, keeping myself shved and groomed, coomplete withthe cologne. I had been displaying much more confidence in groups and started hangin out more doing "guy" stuff. I haven't been groveling for or complaining about sex as I'd been prone to do pre-MMSL. Perhaps, this caused her to wonder what was going on with me. Hmmmm....

BigDaDiesel

Ok. Help me process this evening's events. I cane home from work.  Took the girls with me so we could vote.  I cane home and cooked dinner. I spoke to my wife and she acknowledged with a smirk "Hi" She didn't eat and just went to bed.  A bit later,  she came talking to me about her hurts and all the years of going through this cycle of pain and martial struggles. She feels as if I've not ever truly supported her as much at I should have; especially through ask of her health issues. She was recently published in a collaborative book project with a bunch of other writers.  She also told her story in an interview online taking about her battles with breast cancer and her subsequent infidelity.  She said instead of giving her praise and support I chose to be silent because of the subject matter.  She really needed me to step up,  or the past aside and celebrate her accomplishment. I listened b and dais she was right.  I dropped the ball and let emotions time me in that moment.  I reaffirmed my position of being committed to making the marriage work and moving forward. She looked like she was about to cry then went back to bed.  5 minutes later she came back saying she was HORNY and wanted non emotional sex.  She had a need and didn't want to leave the door open for anyone to come in.  I was like WHAT?  She was like are you going to meet the need or not? I admit I want going to pass on sex since it had been some time. But I don't view her as a piece of meat either. I was thinking also that this may be a moment of breakthrough.  So we went in room and she said just missionary and it won't take a long time. She did she didn't want a connection just sex and that I needed to "beat it up". I'm experiencing all sorts of confusion at this moment.  I'm not sure if this is happening because she wants to just get laid or if she is trying to avoid attraction to another man.  Anyway, we got started and I pounded like there was no tomorrow. Nothing. Pure silence and starfish mode.  Then out of the blue she starts rubbing on me and kissing me like when we were dating back incollege.  It was intense and passionate! Then she quit and said she was done. Now she is sleep and I'm out here trying to figure this out. What do you think THAT was all about???? How many tests did I fail cuz I feel like I did fail something here. 

Tiger

She's processing a bunch of stuff, I think you did fine.

This feels like a definite step in the right direction.  Much work to do, but the direction feels positive.

Frank_London

BigDaDiesel said:

Now she is sleep and I'm out here trying to figure this out. What do you think THAT was all about???? How many tests did I fail cuz I feel like I did fail something here. 

Let me summarize what happened between you and your wife.
 talk... talk...  talk... talk... talk... talk...
wild, passionate sex...
...wife falls asleep.

BigDaDiesel

@Tiger @frank_London After I had some time to sleep on it, I now have a clear head. This was a step in the right direction. The style of sex we had wasn't the ideal method, but it forced intimacy and the good thing is that my wife was the one who initiated it. To me that showed she is trying to move forward. This morning, as I was doing my prayer and meditation, she came to join in. This is huge step becasue we haven't spent time in mornng worship together in ages. Afterwards, she mounted my lap and laid a serious kiss on me, with full morning breath. That is another positive indicator. She NEVER wants to kiss without handling the breath first. After that she stayed on my lap and let me know she was letting her walls down and was going to let all of this negativity go. She apologized for her anger and her outbursts. She pointed out that she was hurt by the fact that I didn't trust her enough to share my feelings with her, but that it was probably her fault because she is "difficult to approach sometimes.". She also expressed again her hurt for my not being supportive of her writing accomplishments and being featured in an interview on a high traffic web page. (She is right on that one. I snubbed her big time in those regards.) She said that there will be other opportunities though and the slate was clean. But she does not want to go through this again. She said for the last week, since we have been embroiled in this mess, that she has been hit on countless times by other men. But all she could think of was how they did not measure up to me. Then she said I'll need to "man up" and make some changes in the areas of trust and communication and family interaction. She said she NEEDS me to be the head of the family and it's time for me to step into that role 100 %. We hugged and kissed once more, then she went to make me some coffee. On my way out to work, she stopped me for a hug and another HUGE kiss.

This has been a roller coaster of epic proportions.

Anyway, I identified several of the REDS I need to immediately address. I am going to at least post the beginnings of my MAP by tomorrow evening. This is when I need to push through and not get sedated because my wife is acting kinda right. I'm on my way to AWESOMENESS!