A little help here...

CartB4Horse

Jesus, you really need to her to tell you that it was good???

If she's a hot wet mess.... It was good.

If she can't seem to keep the smile off her face.... It was good.

If she accosts you in the doorway the next day.... You get the idea.

She won't tell you when your MAP is working either.  You have to read her ACTIONs, not what spills out of the hamster hole.  Look for what she does grasshoper.

BigDaDiesel

TV has ruined my life man! The women on TV ALWAYS tell the dude how great he is in bed. Don't you watch TV??

But seriously, I just wanted to know if it was some kind of power struggle thing. I now gauge the success by the screams, hollers, creams and bed soaking. And if I get the averted gaze of shame afterwards! lol!

Tiger

SignorePillolaRossa‌ is right.  She's likely having a hard time admitting to herself that she liked it.  Good girls don't do that.

Don't listen to what she says, pay attention to how she acts afterwords.  If she's all happy then you know she enjoyed herself.  Over time you can help her understand that it's safe to express herself with you and there are advantages to her to doing so, but it's an advanced topic.  For now you have to read the tea leaves  

BigDaDiesel

Ok. I hear what you all are saying @tiger and @signorePillolaRossa. See if you have any insight into this response:

Over the last 6 or 8 months, the sex has been about 2 times per month. And some fooling around in between (sometimes I can't get an erection even with ED pills). But PIV was twice a month. Several of those times, after what was an EXCEPTIONAL night of sex, the next day she'd find something to argue about. It would be like stuff from seemingly nowhere. We'd go from the highest high of erotic bliss to the lows of arguing within 12 hours. And it would be a SERIOUS argument that would lead to limited to no conversation afterwards. And after a few days it fizzles out. But I noticed that trend. It is new. This has never been something that we did. I tried to psycho-analyze the situations, but I come up with nothing that makes any sense. What do you think?

CartB4Horse

Entirely normal.  She wants to get back to the old status quo, shove the Ho back in her cave.

Work on your Frame.  Be ready the day after.  You'll get plenty of practice at this, it won't stop until you get it right.

Shit tests.  She's got to do it, don't hold it against her.

Persephone

CartB4Horse said:

Entirely normal.  She wants to get back to the old status quo, shove the Ho back in her cave.

Work on your Frame.  Be ready the day after.  You'll get plenty of practice at this, it won't stop until you get it right.

Shit tests.  She's got to do it, don't hold it against her.

I've done that before, but definitely not for that reason. I'm quite comfortable with 'the Ho,' lol.

The reason I did it after sex was because I was too distracted to focus on it before sex. The sex clears all that up.

@BigDaDiesal, SO laughed knowingly at 'beat it up'.

BigDaDiesel

Good news. We had sex again during Scandal and How To Get Away With Murder. This is the 3rd day in a row. This hasn't happened in years. This morning, she told me she was looking forward to adding another day! I know I am supposed to just enjoy the ride (no pun intended), but I am wondering how you go from "I want a divorce" to 3 straight days of mind blowing sex.

We did some talking last night about rebuilding trust and communication. I finally got her to fully agree to counseling and getting another couple to be our accountability partners. Her reservations were more with the accountability partners than with counseling. She is concerned about confidentiality and such. She doesn't trust too many people with her sensitive personal business. After going back and forth, I physically stomped my foot and said I'm putting my FOOT down on this. Just trust me. It is the best thing for us. I told her that I believe great marriages are contagious. And if we want a great marriage we need to surround ourselves with couples who have one. The couple I proposed is one we already hang out with and have respect for. They also do marriage workshops around the city. So they'd be perfect to partner with us as we journey toward a better marriage. After I put my foot down, she gave me a bewildered, shocked "no he did NOT just..." kind of look, then said "Ok. I'll follow your lead. I just down't want our business in the streets". No argument. No negative interactions. The rest of the night was fine.

My only concern now is that we actually are proactive in resolving our differences. A bunch of great sex will help, but after that we still need to get to working all of this out. I am hoping the counseling will really help us in that area. It starts next Saturday.

BigDaDiesel

@persephone: Beating it up is the best approach, I now see. If you want the good juices to flow, you have to beat them out. LOL!

Tiger_Lily

Do you offer a reaction afterwards?  "Last night was great, I love it when you're like that."  From a strong frame, like @SignorePillolaRossa‌ said: deep voice, strong shoulders, lift her chin to make her look you in the eye, etc.  DH started doing this a while ago... at first I kept an embarrassed silence, then came a time when I could grunt and smile, now I'm comfortable enough to do detailed debriefs and appreciate it as an opportunity to communicate.  Even though my Good Girl is dead and buried, it's still important to me that he lead in this area.

And... we don't watch TV  

Tennee

@BigDaDiesel said:

Here is a question: My wife rarely offers props on a job well done in the bedroom. It seems like the greater her pleasure and number of O's, the more aggressively I pound and drive her crazy, the less she has to say about it afterwards. None of that "last night was wonderful" or anything. She will do it on rare occassion, but it's not common. Am I expecting too much? Should I just know I hooked her up and be fine? Or is it some female trickery that prevents her from passing out sexual accolades?

A view on this:  early in the MAP, after a very nice pounding and noisy O for both of us, we were laying in the afterglow.   I thought I'd done a rather nice job there, and said something to the effect of "so how was that" in a cocky fashion, all proud of myself.  Her response was flat and cold:  "why do you need reassurance?".  And BOOM! did that instantly take the wind out of my sails.  I was dejected for a bit.

On reflection, she wasn't saying it wasn't good.  I know it was good, she was a panting sweaty mess.  It was my frame of needing reassurance, seeking validation, that was a turn-off right then and there.   Her Lizard Brain came right out front and challenged me:  'Aren't you Man enough to know???   Hurrumph to you!'. 

OK Lizzy, I heard you.  I no longer ask.  I no longer seek validation for 'job well done' - I am not looking for the Gold Star sticker.   The legs wrapped around me, the nails digging in, the noisy O and leaving her in a rumpled panting heap is all I need. 

Don't seek the Gold Star. I've come to view validation seeking as an indicator of weakness, it means I question my own confidence.  Her Lizard Brain doesn't like weakness. 

SignorePillolaRossa

Tennee said:

@BigDaDiesel said:

Here is a question: My wife rarely offers props on a job well done in the bedroom. It seems like the greater her pleasure and number of O's, the more aggressively I pound and drive her crazy, the less she has to say about it afterwards. None of that "last night was wonderful" or anything. She will do it on rare occassion, but it's not common. Am I expecting too much? Should I just know I hooked her up and be fine? Or is it some female trickery that prevents her from passing out sexual accolades?

A view on this:  early in the MAP, after a very nice pounding and noisy O for both of us, we were laying in the afterglow.   I thought I'd done a rather nice job there, and said something to the effect of "so how was that you're welcome" in a cocky fashion, all proud of myself.  Her response was to coo and giggle and purr and rub herself closer into me. flat and cold:  "why do you need reassurance?".  And BOOM! did that instantly take the wind out of my sails.  I was dejected for a bit.

On reflection, she wasn't saying it wasn't good.  I know it was good, she was a panting sweaty mess.  It was my frame of needing reassurance, seeking validation, that was a turn-off right then and there.   Her Lizard Brain came right out front and challenged me:  'Aren't you Man enough to know???   Hurrumph to you!'. 

OK Lizzy, I heard you.  I no longer ask.  I no longer seek validation for 'job well done' - I am not looking for the Gold Star sticker.   The legs wrapped around me, the nails digging in, the noisy O and leaving her in a rumpled panting heap is all I need. 

Don't seek the Gold Star. I've come to view validation seeking as an indicator of weakness, it means I question my own confidence.  Her Lizard Brain doesn't like weakness. 

FTFY

Tennee

@SignorePillolaRossa‌ That, my friend, is what happens these days...

BigDaDiesel

Thanks guys. I am taking in-depth mental notes. I am going to try the strong frame approach after our next session. I am THAT guy that was looking for validation from her in this area. But not anymore. Confidence. Confidence and MORE Confidence. I DO know that she is very pleased in the bedroom. I no longer need to question that. In retrospect, I can see that she considers me asking or seeking affirmation about my performance as DLV. She is BIG on men being confident. She has urged me in this direction many many times over the years. I don't know WHY I didn't "hear" her.

Tiger

BigDaDiesel said:

Good news. We had sex again during Scandal and How To Get Away With Murder. This is the 3rd day in a row. This hasn't happened in years. This morning, she told me she was looking forward to adding another day! I know I am supposed to just enjoy the ride (no pun intended), but I am wondering how you go from "I want a divorce" to 3 straight days of mind blowing sex.

When she found out that you were considering leaving it freaked her out and scared the crap out of her.  "Well fine then, I want a divorce..." is a loyalty test.  You passed, in fact you passed from an alpha frame that got her panties all wet.

This is what happens when a woman is attracted.

My only concern now is that we actually are proactive in resolving our differences. A bunch of great sex will help, but after that we still need to get to working all of this out. I am hoping the counseling will really help us in that area. It starts next Saturday.

This is a game of inches, so long as you are moving in the right direction most of the time life will continue to get better.  You are doing fine, keep it up.

BigDaDiesel

Big relapse tonight. I'll cover it tomorrow. Good night

BigDaDiesel

Here it is.  Went to a marriage seminar tonight on effective communication.  There about 6 couples in all.  The while time the wife and I were engaged and laughing and flirting.  We were really having a good time and learning a bunch from what was being presented.  At the end I asked a question. "Can you suggest sine additional tools or exercises we can use to build effective communication? ". Several responses came from the participants and the presenters. They were mostly remedial but I was like "Cool! Thank you!" I was hoping for a genuine nugget but that's okay.  As we got in the car to go home,  I noticed my wife was looking like she was upset.  So I asked what she was mad about.  She proceeded to tell me that the question was dumb.  We've been married 21 years and I don't need to ask anyone about how to have effective communication.  She said it was insulting to her that I even asked that question.  I should be able to build on what I already know.  That question was one a newlywed couple would ask.  I tried like all get out to maintain my cool.  I asked a simple question in a marriage seminar looking for some tools to help US out,  and I was getting all this attitude? It infuriated me. Once again she was automatically jumping to conclusions,  making judgements,  casting me in a negative light,  and running off on an errant perception. But I engaged her in an argument. In retrospect, I should have not even asked her what the problem was. I should have just let her enjoy her negative moment. So we did the whole apology thing and agreed not to take anger to bed.  We even shared a goodnight peck, as a show of good will.

Obviously the question was a DLV for her and she reacted angrily because she wants to see me display high value.  But I thought the negative response was juvenile and uncalled for.  I told her this and that I expect more from her than these emotionally charged outbursts.  I told her that if she had reservations or wasn't clear on my intent,  then she should have asked me instead of going off the handle. I asked that from a pure place,  and I wasn't apologising for asking a question. She then said "Fine, since you never want to own anything you do,  then I'll take the blame. But everytime I argue with you it kills my heart a little more. So walls go up to protect it from dying." After that she apologised for going off and not talking to me first.  I apologised for yelling and getting in her face.  About an hour later is when we decided to end the evening by dropping the animosity. But I know she is still holding on to her ridiculous perceptions. 

I am not sure how I could have handled this after I mistakenly asked her why she was upset.  Obviously we are far from being over the hump. There is obviously still hurt and tender spots in both our hearts. I also understand that I have to learn how NOT to be moved by her emotional outbursts and unreasonable thinking. I have to maintain frame at all times. The whole time I was arguing with her I kept remembering how @Athol_Kay‌ teaches that is what lessens my attraction. Back to the drawing board as they say.  We'll try it again tomorrow. 

Frank_London

BigDaDiesel said:

At the end I asked a question. "Can you suggest sine additional tools or exercises we can use to build effective communication? ". Several responses came from the participants and the presenters. They were mostly remedial but I was like "Cool! Thank you!" I was hoping for a genuine nugget but that's okay.  As we got in the car to go home,  I noticed my wife was looking like she was upset.  So I asked what she was mad about.  She proceeded to tell me that the question was dumb.

I don't think it was a DLV - I think she was embarrassed. There she is, sitting next to you, and you publicly (it seemed to her) announced to all around that you and she have communication issues.

So not a DLV for you so much as for you both as a couple. And that might have stung.

Angeline

CartB4Horse said:

Entirely normal.  She wants to get back to the old status quo, shove the Ho back in her cave.

Work on your Frame.  Be ready the day after.  You'll get plenty of practice at this, it won't stop until you get it right.

Shit tests.  She's got to do it, don't hold it against her.

I disagree. It could be the same anger spiral a lot of MAPpers experience when their spouse starts to come around, and they see glimpses of the good stuff. "Why the FUCK can't it be like this all the time?"

Regarding the question at the marriage seminar, I agree with @Frank_London‌, it wasn't a DLV at all on your part. It was embarrassing to her. She feels like she lost face by you admitting IN PUBLIC!! that you two have (gasp) communications problems.

Maybe you can use this to your advantage. Next time ask for resources on improving your "dead sex life". Maybe her competitive, keep-up-appearances mindset will kick her in the ass  

And go get some damned Cialis or Viagra, man. Especially if you've ever hinted she needs her hormones looked at. 

Tennee

Minor speed bump.  Resume Dean Martin Frame.  That is all.  

BigDaDiesel

She IS pre - menopausal or in the early stages of it.  Because of the breast cancer and the related treatments her doctor said she would experience early menopause.  I'm starting to wonder if this constant emotionalism has something to do with it. 

Cialis does nothing for me. Viagra is hit or miss. I haven't learned the best way to take it yet.