Affair won't die, totally confused, need advice

alzote

Hi guys, this is really a last resort cry for help,

 

could somebody please move this into the 911 forum category? I bought the MAP book and emailed the details, but I don't know how long it will take to get my silver membership!

 

I've been in a LTR for 18 years, married for 13. No kids.

I don't want to give too many details, even the minimum details are probably quite unique, and I'm quite embarrassed to have to share my personal problems on the internet.

For the last couple of years, my wife has been working in a different country, for various reasons it's not possible for me to be there with her, although I did visit for a few weeks when she first went- this was really against the rules. It's not particularly safe in this country although she is looked after by her company, it's not possible at all for me to go at the moment.

I would say that we've always been a very strong couple, self-aware, able to communicate very well, but I think for most of our relationship we've been 'blue pill'. We started travelling and living abroad in developing countries from around 8 years ago, and that did suddenly bring out my protective alpha side that she'd not seen so much of until that point.

Sex was generally problematic from the beginning of the relationship, she'd had some bad experiences, and so that side of herself was really bottled up.

I have quite a high sex drive, so this has been frustrating- porn definitely helped.

I think I became complacent in terms of 'mate guarding' because she's never shown an interest in other people, and also she's always been a little overweight- she's not very flirty so there's never really been anything to worry about. She's pretty, but also very 'nice' and beta, so I've never needed to worry.

I can't really give numbers to our attractiveness, I really don't know where to start, but neither of us is bad looking! I'm not in bad shape, and when I complain about feeling a bit podgy around my middle, people think I'm crazy. I think because of her weight, my SO I would guess has felt a lower SR than me, although it feels quite arrogant to say that!

There were/are some elephants though- we were students when we met, and although I did then have reasonably good jobs that gave us some security for some years, I gave up the 9/5 lifestyle some years ago to start my own business which didn't work out too well- and since then I've been doing more 'artistic' things which generally don't pay all that well.

We went backpacking quite a few years ago, and ended up living in various exotic countries where my SO landed on her feet and entered down a route of very high paying jobs, and this inequality has taken its toll on our relationship. For the last year or so I've been kind of a mess after I had some various problems, but I feel like I'm ready to pick myself up psychologically now.

Also, my SO is hurt that for many years I didn't feel ready to have kids. She's desperate for kids. I wanted to feel financially more secure before that happened, but now her clock is ticking, and she's upset that I made her wait. On top of all of this, it turns out that I have a low sperm count, so we have to have IVF to have kids, and we've already tried one cycle that didn't work. I'm 42, she's 37.

So anyway, for the last year or so, there's been this guy that my SO had been texting incessantly and talking about a lot. Around a year ago, when we went on holiday (I see my SO every few weeks), she was texting this guy non stop, and I made it very clear that this was unacceptable for me, and this issue flared up regularly for around a year. I never asked if there was anything untoward going on for many reasons- I have several close female friends, and am not a jealous person. I trusted my SO, we've spent much of our 18 year relationship apart, and often living in different countries, and trust has been a really important part of our relationship. I did have suspicions about this guy, but I also realised that my SO was in a new country which was dangerous and where she needed to have friends.

I actually thought that she was developing an addiction to her phone, and we ended up arguing about this quite a few times.

Anyway, I eventually asked her straight out if she was having a relationship with this guy, and was absolutely shocked to get an affirmative answer, it felt awful even asking her such a question. She'd been sleeping with this guy for about a year, and I was in a state of shock. She'd always been quite sexually reserved, we weren't having sex that regularly (I know, I know, I needed to read TMMSLP, etc.). I was trickle fed the whole story that day, and she was distraught and remorseful. After a few days of shock, I decided that we should try to move forwards and stay together.

Several years ago, I had a one-night stand which made me realise what was missing from my marriage, and I guess I'd just stuck my head in the sand since then about fixing this side of life- I told my SO at this point that I'd had a fling, I thought this was a secret I'd take to my grave. This actually seemed to give her more respect for me, and we had very spontaneous wild sex after I was telling her about this. It seemed that having an affair had given my SO much more sexual confidence, and we've had pretty good sex since then- often several times a day and rarely less than once a day- when we're together in the same place that is.

For a while, it looked like we were doing everything absolutely right- we started a new regime of absolute unflinching honesty with one another, I raised my alpha significantly, and it looked like we were going to use all of this crap to build a much better relationship out of the ashes of our previous 'safe & comfortable' marriage. Don't get me wrong, I didn't just accept this affair quietly, but it was clear that we've both been repressing our passionate sexual sides with each other, and now we could have a really amazing relationship that was far more complete.

...

alzote

When she went back to this other country, I didn't realise at first how difficult it was going to be for her to cope with all the things I've read about now on this forum- the addiction, the fog, etc. I could already see quite clearly how much of an addiction she had when I made her send a final goodbye message to this guy saying it was over. She said that this didn't give her proper 'closure', but to me it was clear as day that this is how it had to be.

Well, as you can all probably guess, my SO contacted this guy again when she got back to the other country... she told me she needed some few days of 'space'. I agreed to this for half a day before my gut feeling told me this was VERY wrong, and confronted her, and she had got back in touch with him. At this point, I thought our marriage was over, but I gradually came around and appreciated that at least she'd told me the truth.

She then phoned me in a panic a few days later after he turned up at a party and wouldn't leave her alone- I really appreciated that she'd told me and asked for my help.

And since then (around 2-3 months ago), I thought we were basically doing okay, and getting over this. But something seemed off a few days ago, so I asked her yesterday if she'd been in touch with him- and she admitted that she'd contacted him again around a week ago, and he's stayed the night a couple of times, they slept together on Sunday.

She was absolutely distraught, in tears, says she wants to stay with me, but she's really confused, etc etc.

I was in a hell of a state, again really a giant reality slap of being single and divorced, and it was at this point that I started writing this giant forum post.

We spoke again today, and she is totally remorseful, says she wants more than anything to be with me and that she won't accept that we won't be together, that she'll do whatever it takes. Usual story, this other guy doesn't sound all that great, but he wore down her resistance and made a very aggressive play for her, and she's in an environment where almost all her colleagues are having affairs. Part of me thinks that I'd be insane to stay with somebody who is capable of lying by omission and repeatedly cheating with me, but the other part of me doesn't want to throw away a very special relationship with someone who is very special- it's not just me who thinks that, most people who know her say she's a very unique and wonderful person. I think we could have a really great red-pill future together. As far as I'm aware, she's always told me the truth when I've directly asked for it. This doesn't excuse the fact that she spent a year sleeping with someone without telling me, but I've also read enough on this forum to know that it also seems quite rare that she'll tell me the truth when I ask for it. She says she's finding it very hard at the moment for all sorts of reasons, and she's going to stay with a friend who knows about this situation and is very much rooting for her to just stop going to this idiot and make things work with me.

I've said I need a few days to think about what I want, if we stay together I don't want it to be out of weakness. I can see she's working through the fog and this addiction, but I don't know if I'm being an idiot for being so understanding. A key moment came when she was struggling with the feelings when she first went back; I said to her that although she normally trusted her feelings and was very in touch with them, there was no way she could trust her feelings at that moment, because you can only trust your feelings when your brain and feelings are aligned. At every single point, she disagreed with me about how the affair should be dealt with, and then this idiot OM would go and do and act in exactly the way I said he would do, and she quickly discovered that I can read this situation very well. Right now, I just don't know how to get her to stop texting, talking to, and seeing this guy. Obviously, it's her life, but she's told me very clearly that she absolutely wants to be with me, but she is struggling with being lonely in a country where she can't leave the house much, feels completely isolated, and still has all the leftover feelings from having a year-long affair. Also, when she's not with me and has been talking to the other man, she starts to talk about concerns about our future in terms of 'comfort' vs 'passion', etc. When we're together, I can up the alpha to deal with some of these feelings, but when we're trying to maintain a LDR, I have no idea how to do anything other than beta support over the phone.

It's unrealistic to get her to just leave her job and this country, she has loads of responsibilities, and this really doesn't help. Once she's away from this place, we have a future.

We were due to meet at the end of the month for a week long holiday, but I'm not sure this is a good idea? Or is it? I don't have a clue anymore.

 

Anyway, thanks for reading this long ramble, and I will do my best to consider all the advice.

stillasamountain

She needs to find a job where she comes home to you every night. The affair(s) will never end otherwise. There's a whole other bunch of affair busting / mate guarding steps after that but the LDR is the huge gorilla, right now.

ETA: And, if she really wants to work things out, then she should be willing to put in place whatever barriers / boundaries you want. Continually fighting you on how to handle things is not a good sign. It means she's still in the fog and putting the welfare of the AP over you.

Athol_Kay

alzote said:

could somebody please move this into the 911 forum category? I bought the MAP book and emailed the details, but I don't know how long it will take to get my silver membership!

Bumped and upgraded.

alzote

She's doing everything she can to find another job, but it's not going to happen overnight.
She generally does put in place the boundaries I ask for, she fought in the beginning about them, but she is generally willing to do whatever it takes and trusts me for the most part that she needs them... until she's had too much to drink, feels lonely at the end of a stressful week, and feels the temptation to contact the AP.

alzote

Today, we agreed some additional conditions for her if she wants any hope of a future with me... she's not going to drink (I think she contacted the AP when she'd been drinking).
She's going to send me a message at the end of every day to say that she has not been in contact with the AP.
She's moving in with a friend of hers who knows about the affair, and is very much on my side. She will be 'mate-guarding' for me- but it's not possible for this to be a 100% deterrent.
We talked about her telling her family- we'd decided against telling anybody about this before, but this is now so serious, that I want her to have more consequences for her behaviour. She's going to think about telling them over the weekend.

I made it clear that this is no guarantee of our future anyway, and I need time to think about whether I'm going to continue in this relationship. Today, she was so repentant that I'm finding it hard to think about finishing it. But I don't trust her to behave herself while I'm not there.
It's like an alien has invaded her body- she's acting in ways that I would never have believed possible. She was saying earlier today that she was weak, and basically had no control over what happened. I got quite mad, and said if that was true, then we were completely over. She always has agency, self-control, and the ability to make decisions. I think she really took this on board, and I believe that this shook her up and made her realise that she is responsible for herself instead of being swept along by a fog of emotion.

We've had some really good times since I found out about the affair, like I said, I really thought we were using this as an opportunity to make a much much better relationship, but we can't do this if she keeps being pulled back to the AP in moments of weakness.

stillasamountain

Those are all pretty good signs, though I could have sworn you said she was resistant. How close is she to finding another job?

alzote

She was very resistant at first, but gradually started to trust me as it became more and more obvious to her that I understood the relationship she was having with the OM much better than her, and that I could totally predict 100% how the OM would act at every single stage which went against what she thought would happen.
She was very close to finding another job- it was eventually between her and one other person. We're waiting to hear about it, and it's looking less likely with every additional week- she should have heard by now if she'd got it. Other than that, there's nothing on the immediate horizon.

Crashaxe

It is perfectly realistic for her to leave that job and that country, unless she is a slave or a member of the military assigned there.

It is done through an immediate resignation and a plane trip home.

Without her coming back as soon as possible, you are completely wasting your time, and very most likely ought to just call it quits now.

I can guarantee that whatever the importance of the job, if she died  unexpectedly today, her employer would manage to replace her very soon.  There is no such thing as the indispensable person.

She has to decide what is more important to her. The job, or her marriage.

alzote

Yes, we have seriously thought about her just coming straight home.
Here are the issues:
she has a very good job with a company that is notoriously difficult to get employment with. At the moment, she is not only doing her job but a job 2 pay scales higher because of somebody leaving. She would seriously be letting everybody down if she left right now. Her workload is so high, that she spends her entire waking life working. Weekends included. It's hard to even find the time to talk to her. If she quit right now, she'd never again get a job in this field or with this employer. It's a highly rewarding job, with enormous potential for the future, and huge financial benefits. This kind of job is next to impossible to find- and get again if she came back right now to be with me.
Also, we have made the spectacularly badly timed decision to buy a second house which is something we started putting into place over a year ago, and completion for this is this week. Most of her savings are now in this house, and it needs furnishing and decorating. As we've been travelling all over the place, I've not established myself in my current location to be able to totally support us financially just yet, but I know this is my most important task right now.
So I don't think this is such a black and white decision... and I understand why she wants to hold on to her job right now for all its stresses. I don't think she will leave it right now, and I don't expect her to. It's really crap that I'm not in the position to support us both right now, and I realise that if we split up, I have to take some of that responsibility because of this. Another point, is that she needs to safeguard her future- if we don't work out and she's given up this job, she's pretty much destroyed her future.
If I really laid down the law, I might be able to get her to consider it, but I don't think it's wise for her future to give up this career route.

PhoenixDown

Is any of that stuff more valuable than your marriage?

Crashaxe

I'm confused now. If she is so busy 24/7, then how has she had the time to be communicating with and having regular sex with the Other Man?

Nonetheless, for you to have a hope of salvaging the marriage, she has to get out of there and with you. There is no magical other way.

I wouldn't call you an idiot by any means, as you said in your post, but being so understanding is a huge mistake and is not going to get you the outcome you seek.

soa2005

@alzote‌ ;
You stated that affairs are common place between workers at her job. 
Im assuming she is still in close proximity with the other man.
Youre in a long distance relationship with her.

The above factors will make it very hard to rebuild trust, assuming that you decide to reconcile. Part of rebuilding trust after it has been broken, and in your case repeatedly broken, is the ability to verify that the wayward spouses actions and statements are in fact true. The current situation with your wife living in a different country makes it pretty much impossible to verify the truth. 

Again, assuming you decide to reconcile, I see at least one possible positive thing working in your favor. According to you it appears that your wife has been truthful during the multiple 
confrontations. In most cases of cheating the wayward spouse rarely admits to the affair when they are initially confronted. Unfortunately I see a lot more negative things working against you. The first three points I listed are definitely not ideal conditions for restoring trust and rebuilding your marriage. Also, your wife seemed remorseful yet she cheated again and has admitted that she is confused. 

If if you decide that you want to work on this marriage there are several things that I think are must dos:
-Your wife needs to come home. She needs to find a job that doesn't involve travel, at least for the time being.
- Your wife needs to give you all information about this other man. If he is married then you need to contact his wife and expose the affair. 
- Together draft a no contact letter to this man. If this man contacts your wife she will not respond and she will notify you. If you find out your wife contacts the other man then she faces the consequences.
- Your wife needs to open up all communication devices, web history, passwords, etc.. Your wife needs to be accountable for any time away from home. 
- Your wife agrees to whatever type of counseling you choose to actively work on repairing the marriage.
- Your wife gets tested for stds
- Your wife is willing to answer any and all questions you have regarding the affair.

soa2005

"Another point is that she needs to safeguard her future".
Dude she fucked up her future when she decides to step out on you. I understand that she is your wife and that you love her but you need to be concerned with you and your marriage instead of her financial future.

soa2005

"She would seriously be letting everyone down if she left right now". 
Umm, too bad for her co workers but marriage comes first.

alzote

Maybe my and my SO need to have another talk about this.
At the moment, our relationship is struggling with dealing with the aftermath of an affair.
If I made her come back home, give up her career and any hope of realistically getting back into it, and give up a lifestyle working in many different countries, on top of having to rely on very little money, I think this will bring a sudden load of very different stresses and problems on our marriage. I will certainly consider it though, and have a thorough chat with her about it.

alzote

soa2005 said:

@alzote‌ ;
You stated that affairs are common place between workers at her job. 
Im assuming she is still in close proximity with the other man.
Youre in a long distance relationship with her.

The above factors will make it very hard to rebuild trust, assuming that you decide to reconcile. Part of rebuilding trust after it has been broken, and in your case repeatedly broken, is the ability to verify that the wayward spouses actions and statements are in fact true. The current situation with your wife living in a different country makes it pretty much impossible to verify the truth. 

Again, assuming you decide to reconcile, I see at least one possible positive thing working in your favor. According to you it appears that your wife has been truthful during the multiple 
confrontations. In most cases of cheating the wayward spouse rarely admits to the affair when they are initially confronted. Unfortunately I see a lot more negative things working against you. The first three points I listed are definitely not ideal conditions for restoring trust and rebuilding your marriage. Also, your wife seemed remorseful yet she cheated again and has admitted that she is confused. 

If if you decide that you want to work on this marriage there are several things that I think are must dos:
-Your wife needs to come home. She needs to find a job that doesn't involve travel, at least for the time being.
- Your wife needs to give you all information about this other man. If he is married then you need to contact his wife and expose the affair. 
- Together draft a no contact letter to this man. If this man contacts your wife she will not respond and she will notify you. If you find out your wife contacts the other man then she faces the consequences.
- Your wife needs to open up all communication devices, web history, passwords, etc.. Your wife needs to be accountable for any time away from home. 
- Your wife agrees to whatever type of counseling you choose to actively work on repairing the marriage.
- Your wife gets tested for stds
- Your wife is willing to answer any and all questions you have regarding the affair.

Thanks, that's a really thorough list of points!
She isn't exactly in close proximity with this other man (man doesn't really seem right for this guy, more like boy!). She doesn't work with him, he's a local. There's no reason for them to be in touch if she behaves herself.
I have all the information about this guy. More than enough. When I found out what had happened, my SO told me everything I wanted to know. She was very good about being ready to tell me about anything I asked about, no matter how painful. The OM is younger and single, so there's no wife to tell.
We both drafted a no contact letter when I first found out about this. When he kept contacting her (40 messages that evening), I sent him a text message that was firm and brutal. It shut it right down, and would have done the trick if my SO hadn't opened contact back up again when she went back to this country. I'm in no position now to send any more messages, as it's obvious that I have no power to enforce anything, and getting her to send another no contact letter would be ludicrous, as she's already told him many times that she will never contact him again.
My wife already gave me all her passwords, etc. She did her best to be as transparent as possible, all I need to do is ask her if she's been in contact with him and she will tell me. I didn't realise at this stage that I still need to do this every day, which is why I asked her to send me a message every day with this information.
I also made the condition today that we need counselling. To be honest, I have almost zero faith in counsellors, and I think we are already very good at working through all that kind of stuff ourselves, but it's a symbol at this point. She told me she will have organised this by the end of the weekend.
I do believe that she is doing her best to put right an enormous amount of bad choices which are completely against her usual character, and although she knows I'm furious about her lying by omission, I do trust that she's never lied to me once I've asked a direct question. I wish I'd asked her about this a year ago.
Another thing is that she feels that once she's stepped over an ethically bad line, that's it, our marriage is over, and that is why she went so far down this path. I have to emphasise over and over again that everything isn't black and white, there are many shades, and to just tell the truth to me the moment ANYTHING happens so we can deal with it. I think she's starting to get this.

alzote

Crashaxe said:

I'm confused now. If she is so busy 24/7, then how has she had the time to be communicating with and having regular sex with the Other Man?

Nonetheless, for you to have a hope of salvaging the marriage, she has to get out of there and with you. There is no magical other way.

I wouldn't call you an idiot by any means, as you said in your post, but being so understanding is a huge mistake and is not going to get you the outcome you seek.

Well, it's been once apparently since I found out about the affair, and it's these recent stresses that contributed to her recent 'weakness'. I'm not all that sympathetic about all the reasons that she gave me as to why she started communicating with and seeing him again, but I can see life is quite tough there for her at the moment at the same time as me demanding more self-control and truth telling from her.
But yeah, I'm hearing a common pattern here, I'll have a chat with her about giving up her job.

soa2005

@alzote ;
Some of what you said comes across like your almost making excuses for your wife's behavior. Several of your posts make it seem like you believe that your wife's feelings, career, and well being are more important than you and your marriage. This type of thinking is not helpful for affair busting. Unfortunately I don't think there is anything that any of us can say to help you realize how counterproductive this attitude can be. Eventually you will probably come to this realization on your own. 

Im sorry you're going through this. Too many of us here know how badly it sucks.

soa2005

@alzote‌ ;
Yea counseling is not for everyone. That list was more of an example based on the information you posted but would work much better for you if drafted to your personal specifications. Whatever you choose to do I hope it works out, you seem like a solid guy. 

frillyfun

You said that she has a pretty good case of baby rabies, and that you've gone through a round of IVF.

How, prey tell, does she intend to be a Mom if she works in a country that's so dangerous you can't visit her?  

Her leaving her job sounds like it's necessary anyway- this cheating has just moved up the timeline.