Affair won't die, totally confused, need advice

Crashaxe

dalef said:

Clearly,she is working in a war zone. I think you are doing the right thing; however, the odds of success are low; and the longer she stays the lower they get.

Body Agenda rockets upwards in importance in situations of societal disruption, and even more so in times of danger. The normal societal rules fade into oblivion as their relative importance pales in consideration of mortality.

Put more bluntly, people in or coming out of dangerous situations generally feel compelled to have as much sex as they can, and their decisions are based on what is here and now.

Following critical incidents in schools, the well-done debriefings address this fact because the School Resource Officer or responding officers who served as rescuers and the teachers, who were the rescued, have shown a predilection for getting together in past incidents, often in direct contradiction to their previous values and behavior.

I suspect that without a massive crushing "shock and awe" response from you that would compel her to leave the area she is in, your likelihood of things turning out the way you want them to is very low, unless you are willing to be a doormat in regards to her behavior.

dalef

Is he in a place to give an ultimatum? If she said no he would be in a worse place.

Frank_London

Well, he's saying he's not in that place, and indicated that an ultimatum would probably fail.

On the other hand, there is no long-distance way to repair this. The marriage has no chance unless they are living together.The OP wants advice on how to repair things while staying long distance but that's not possible, and I think it would be irresponsible to offer such advice.

So, you know maybe - if this is a very special situation - he might be patient, hold off for a short time while this overseas stint wraps up, and wait for her return, before really working hard on fixing things. But the way I read it, the current overseas posting will be followed by another overseas posting, and another, and another....

This marriage has suffered a huge amount of damage. It needs commitment, and it needs proximity.

al2682

I know we have had lots of detail, but having a triage would provide helpful information as well.

Tiger

Or spring for a one-hour call with Athol and see if the master can chart a way through this.  It's a whole lot cheaper than a divorce.

http://mindfulattractionplan.com/landing/one-hour-call/

fordsvt

You have recieved a massive amount of advice here. All of it leads to one path. She quits her job moves back home. Gives up the affair and focuses on the marriage. 
Or you file papers. It's straight forward and easy to present. You need to Alpha up here and present a strong stance. 

BrianC

@alzote‌ a lot of people are missing the reproductive angle because they are very busy looking at the infidelity angle.

If you don't want a child with her anymore, but she is so desperate to have a child she is willing to cheat, staying in this marriage has become a zero-sum game.  One of you gets what they want, the other gets to be unhappy for the rest of their life.

If she does get pregnant, then you will never be able to be sure the child is yours, because you know she's a cheater.  As it was, it sounds like she was perfectly happy setting you up for twenty years of paternity fraud.

Forget all the other stuff for a moment.  Here's the simplest expression of your problem:

Do you want to be married to a woman who is going to be unhappy because she is childless?

-or-

Do you want to be a father to a child whose paternity you will never be sure of, and whose mother is untrustworthy?

-or-

Do you want to choose neither of those options?

alzote

Well, I'm back...
thanks for all the advice- I really wasn't in a position to tell her to leave the country and the job. For one thing, there would have been large penalties for leaving, which wouldn't be possible to pay because of the house purchase last week.
Also, I touched before on the elephant in the room in one of my first posts- I've not had a good year and I've been earning much less for quite a while now.
I had a bit of a breakdown in the last year caused by various stresses which built up in the last few years, and I'm only just picking myself up from this and starting to feel stronger. Moving countries every few years because of my wife's job has meant that it's very difficult for me to keep finding jobs, freelance work, etc. although I absolutely admit that it started to get on top of me and I should have been working a lot harder and even using my time volunteering when I didn't have work.
Like I said, I've been a mess in the last year, and I'm not earning at the moment- part of this is because I teach from home- but for more than a year it constantly looked like I would be moving to a new house in a new area, but the mortgage applications hit brick wall after brick wall, and I was never certain when I was moving. Now the sale has gone through, I can build up a load of pupils in my new house without having to suddenly let them down by moving away.
I feel hugely embarrassed about my weaknesses in being strong and able to provide, and I absolutely acknowledge that this has put stresses on what felt like an otherwise strong marriage and fed a situation that led to my W having an affair. An affair is completely wrong in my eyes, and there is always a choice, but I can see that I didn't help the situation.
Now, my friends who I've been speaking to in the last week all agree that my W shouldn't give up her job, it also turns out that she's been impressing a lot of people recently, who are going to push for great promotions, etc. (BTW, her next posting would definitely be one where we could have lived together).
I totally saw that this probably meant that our marriage would not survive, and she would go back to the AP.
But I need some time to get on my feet, run MAP, etc. otherwise she would come back to the UK, where I'm still sorting myself out, and I know that this would kill our relationship right now as well.
When I spoke to my W, she confirmed everything I'm saying here, she said all the same things, said she'd be very resentful if I made her come home, it's not even possible for at least a month anyway, and it's crazy to give up such a great job. She actually gave up the same job in a different country for us to travel together to a new country- she regretted this heavily and found it VERY tough to find the same job again, and was lucky to find it at all. The only way she could get back into the job was by--- accepting her current job in a place which meant we couldn't live together. She's VERY reluctant to give it up AGAIN! She said today that there is no way that she'd give up her job and come home anyway, and she said she resented me even talking about it.
But this is all possibly a bit irrelevant now anyway- I've been putting a lot of heavy pressure on her in the last week because I knew she had to meet the AP a few times through work (which is very unusual)- and today she phoned me to say she'd kissed him, wanted to be with him, and she felt we had too many problems in our marriage for us to work out.
Apparently, he said today that he'd had enough of waiting for her, and he was completely finished with her- and this had the predictable result that she then fought for him. Me and my W have been talking about our marriage for months, obviously, and the strength of her negativity about our relationship today seemed to come from nowhere- I understand her feelings about the financial inequality and not having children yet, but I suspect that her feelings for the AP are also magnifying these out of proportion to the actual feelings which I thought we were working through, and which I thought were not insurmountable. Some of this I'm sure was rationalisation for her feelings in wanting to be with the AP.
I told my W that we'd need to wait at least a year before I'd consider having children, but she is DESPERATE for children, and even said she's considering a future with the AP having children. This is craziness. (Edit: the AP is a poor local artist... if my W being the breadwinner and earning more than me caused problems with our marriage that led to my W being more receptive to an affair, this is obviously a completely mad thing to do)
Anyway, we had a long long long conversation, because I am so reluctant to say goodbye to our 18 year relationship because she keeps being pulled back to the AP. I totally acknowledge we have our issues, but it really seemed that we were going to be able to work through them. At the end of this long conversation, it seemed that my W still wanted some hope of us trying to work things out, but she doesn't know what she wants, and needs time to herself.
Obviously right now, this marriage feels over. My W is coming to the UK in a couple of weeks for a holiday- she said she would try to stay away from the AP for a glimmer of hope so we could chat, in case I might still want to fix things, but I don't hold out much hope at all for her ability to stay away, or for me wanting to keep putting myself through this.
I'm in a huge state of grief and sadness, as well as massive worry, anxiety and fear about being in such a huge state of flux about moving to a new place in a new house, the work the house needs, me finding work and making money, as well as coming out of a breakdown. Part of me is a gigantic terrified mess, part of me is looking forward to the challenge of running the MAP, getting on my feet, and finally sorting myself out. It's a roller coaster, and everything is hitting me at once. It's crazy that after a year and a half of trying to sort out a mortgage on a new house, it suddenly comes through the week that my marriage falls apart. Anyway, I'm sorry for the long ramble, I know many of you have been through this, and I followed many of you go through this when I first started lurking here a couple of months ago and following the same damned path.
Edit: Also, because I've spent a lot of time abroad, I don't have a huge amount of friends and feel quite isolated back in the UK. I do have a couple of friends who are very supportive, but they're quite busy and one lives quite a distance from me. I'm a bit panic-stricken at the amount of challenges facing me right now on top of the end of my 18 year relationship with what I thought was my soul-mate, that I never in a million years thought would end. Just the break-up on its own is just gigantically painful and difficult to deal with.

Cowboy

@alzote , I feel for you man, I really do.  But I think there needs to be a plan where you two live in the same country, and pronto. Frankly, I think the ONLY option is for her to leave the job and move back with you. Yeah, she could very well call your bluff and decide to ditch you. You are in a very weak position right now. But I think that has a higher chance of success than you both staying where you are now.
As we told you would happen, she went back to the other man...again. Even though he says he is fed up with waiting, I would bet it still isn't done. With no scientific data at all to back it up, I'd say there's better than a 95% chance that wasn't the last time they'll sleep together. He may decide banging her is too much fun, and drop his own ultimatum. Or, even more likely, she may decide that she needs to pick him over you, or at least go back to the way things were. Either way, your marriage is toast anyway.

And please listen to @BrianC‌ . You don't need to be introducing a baby to this mix until you two have actually worked it out. 

frillyfun

She wants a baby, but she has a job that doesn't really sound compatible with motherhood, and her H doesn't make enough to support a family.  It's a real double bind for her.

She either has to give up the idea of having a family, or give up the job, but without any financial support from you she's realized that she'll never have the life that she wants.

Unless you can come up with a really good plan to provide for a family you don't have much of a chance of keeping your marriage together.  

I'm so sorry you're going through this.  Please take care of yourself.  Make sure you eat, drink water, and try to get enough sleep.  Seek medical attention if you are finding it difficult to cope.

At this point you should probably also talk to a lawyer.

eightyk

When do you think she is likely to be in a country where you can live together?  If you were to break up would she still be looking at moving to such a country, or would she stay where she is?

I almost wonder if an opinion might be a trial separation/'break'.  I think you're not going to be able to get a handle on this until you're together again.  It looks like the measures you put in place aren't working.

I agree, a trip to a lawyer should be a top priority.  Regardless of what you actually do, I think you want to make sure you know what your options are.

Frillyfun has a good point.  If she was to get pregnant essentially now, what would be the plan?  Her job does not sound family friendly!

alzote

Cowboy said:

@alzote , I feel for you man, I really do.  But I think there needs to be a plan where you two live in the same country, and pronto. Frankly, I think the ONLY option is for her to leave the job and move back with you. Yeah, she could very well call your bluff and decide to ditch you. You are in a very weak position right now. But I think that has a higher chance of success than you both staying where you are now.
As we told you would happen, she went back to the other man...again. Even though he says he is fed up with waiting, I would bet it still isn't done. With no scientific data at all to back it up, I'd say there's better than a 95% chance that wasn't the last time they'll sleep together. He may decide banging her is too much fun, and drop his own ultimatum. Or, even more likely, she may decide that she needs to pick him over you, or at least go back to the way things were. Either way, your marriage is toast anyway.

And please listen to @BrianC‌ . You don't need to be introducing a baby to this mix until you two have actually worked it out. 

My W made it clear she won't leave her job to come back with me. Part of the problem as well, is that because she's desperate for kids and we need IVF to have those kids, she needs the job to pay for the IVF, which is stupidly a lot of the decision behind why she chose to accept the job and be away from me, so she could pay for it! Obviously, this was a massive mistake in hindsight, when we discussed her taking the job 2 years ago, we said we would only do it if we were sure it wouldn't be at the expense of our marriage. We've spent lots of our relationship long-distance, but much earlier in our relationship and not when she was really wanting babies.
She also wants time for herself at the moment, and I've read enough on these forums that that means she'll go to the AP. Besides which, at the beginning of the conversation yesterday, she actually said that although she agreed that I was reasonable to tell her to not be in contact with the AP, she can't do that anymore, and wants to be with him. So, yes, it looks very very over.

eightyk said:
When do you think she is likely to be in a country where you can live together?  If you were to break up would she still be looking at moving to such a country, or would she stay where she is?
I almost wonder if an opinion might be a trial separation/'break'.  I think you're not going to be able to get a handle on this until you're together again.  It looks like the measures you put in place aren't working.
I agree, a trip to a lawyer should be a top priority.  Regardless of what you actually do, I think you want to make sure you know what your options are.
Frillyfun has a good point.  If she was to get pregnant essentially now, what would be the plan?  Her job does not sound family friendly!

She could be in a new country with a month to two months where we could live together. If we break up, which looks unpreventable right now, she would still move to such a country ASAP.

I've considered having a break, in fact that's really where we are at the moment. But it's hard to see it as a break when she's with the AP, I can't imagine taking her back after knowing that she went back to this guy at this stage when I've already been too patient, given her too many chances, and had too much pain.

If she was to get pregnant now, she still has plenty of time to get a different position in a more baby-friendly country, and I think we always assumed I'd play a major part in raising the baby- we had friends in very similar positions, and I think we assumed we'd be the same.

However, I had a chat with a close female friend of mine who has also had experience of wanting a baby at any costs, and she half suggested that if I suggested that I was willing to try for a baby right now, that this is the only way that my W would be willing to come back and give it a go.
She also said this is a terrible idea right now, but my rationalising brain is latching on to this like a drowning man to a lifebuoy. A lot of things made more sense- when my W said to me yesterday that it was too late to fix the problems with our marriage, I see what she was really talking about was not having children. And I do think she'd come back to the UK straight away if I could support us and pay for IVF.
Because of my statement that I couldn't consider babies for at least a year until I saw how stable our marriage was, I think this was a major factor in deciding that children for her are actually more important than saving the marriage and probably not having children. The way she sees it, is stay with me= no children. I think she'd accepted this unhappily, but has now changed her mind because she is so desperate for kids.
So as far as I see it, if I want her back, I have only one option because, as Cowboy pointed out, I am in a very weak position. I have to be willing to try for babies straight away.

This is a terrible idea for many reasons, but also I can't help thinking that maybe I actually do owe this to her for depriving her of this. It would be far better for her to have my baby than to have either the APs or a stranger's baby, and if we didn't manage to stay together after having a baby, at least the benefits from my W's job would be able to pay for incredible education, and so on. I actually really did want a family with my W in the end, and part of my brain is wondering if it's worth exploring this option despite the gigantic risks. As far as I can see, it's the only way we have any chance of staying together, but it would take a lot of trust that she would have to stop seeing the AP, plus I don't know how likely we would be to make it after that.

Paternity has been mentioned- I still believe 100% that my W has not lied to a direct question, and I have no reason to be suspicious about this. Many times, my direct questions have got very painful answers, but I absolutely think my W will give me the truth in response to a direct question. Me and my W have both done genealogical DNA tests, so there's no reason at all why our hypothetical baby wouldn't be included in that, which would answer that question very definitively.

soa2005

@alzote‌ ;

The best decision you have made so far was stating to your wife that you are not ready to have a baby with her. There is never a perfect time to add a baby to a family but in your situation it is probably the worst possible time for your wife to become pregnant. 

Right now now it feels like your world has been turned upside down. You are experiencing the whole range of several really intense emotions. If you can pull it together for the time being you may one day look back and feel relief that you were able to dodge an even worse situation than you find yourself in now. Babies seldom ease preexisting relationship problems, in fact the problems are usually compounded with the addition of children. 

Im not trying to shit all over you. Heck, you would probably be a good father, but think of how selfish it is to jeopardize your child's future on a long shot. Your idea of having a baby right now is solely a defense mechanism to keep your wife. I can empathize with that, but as an objective observer I can guarantee it is the wrong decision. 

Reborn

(a) Her job is more important to her than her marriage

(b) The most important thing to her is wanting children

Think about this - - what does it mean?

soa2005

@alzote‌ ;

Your posts state that your wife told you she will not leave this job. Did she state this as a result of an ultimatum? Or was this just a general discussion?
The reason I ask this is because I'm under the impression that there was no real ultimatum. Originally, you seemed wary to go through with one. Anyways, I'm posting the following under the impression that there was no ultimatum discussion. 

As of right now your wife has made it clear that she is choosing to do whatever she wants. She will continue to see the other man while at the same time she keeps you in limbo with the whole "I need time to myself". You have several options depending if you want to attempt to salvage this or let it go. Regardless of which option you choose I strongly suggest meeting with a lawyer.
- Divorce her.
- Give her the "time to herself" and hope that she somehow comes to her senses on her own and returns home to be with you. This option allows her to keep you as a "plan b" in case the OM doesn't pan out. This option also makes her lose respect for you and makes it easier for her to cheat on you again. 
- Give her an ultimatum. At this point what do you have to lose? You said yourself that the marriage appears to be over. Don't allow her to keep you in limbo, force her hand. Right now she is under the impression that you're waiting for her to make a decision. This arrangement gives her all the power in the world to be with the OM and still return to you. What consequences, if any, does she face for carrying on an affair? I get the impression that she believes you will wait for her and take her back when this assignment is over. Why would she give up the affair if this is the case? Show her this is real and clearly state what you want and what immediate consequences are for not meeting the requirements. Again, if it's already over, what do you have to lose?

Frank_London

soa2005 said:

 Regardless of which option you choose I strongly suggest meeting with a lawyer.

This is good advice.
Going to a lawyer doesn't mean you're leaving. Treat it as a fact-finding mission.
It just means that you will know what the options actually are and what they entail.

Crashaxe

Another issue with your wife having an affair, you just idly sitting by while she does so, and then you taking her back when she leaves is that you have set an absolutely horrendous precedent.

People who face no consequences for their actions have little reason not to take those actions at some point in the future, because they know they have nothing to fear from their spouse.

dalef

If she moves to another country; could the OM follow her? The countries that come to mind that fit your description citizens are not always welcome elsewhere.

eightyk

I'm really curious as to how your wife thinks this will all pan out. It just doesn't seem to add up at all.

She's going to start a relationship with this other guy?  This seems to be her current choice.  Are kids part of this hypothetical plan?  One presumes she'd want to marry someone who fathered her child?  So he's a poor artist.  Not much financial support there.  So she's going to pay for everything and support him.  They'll probably need to stay where they are now.  He presumably doesn't have papers to be living elsewhere.  Unless this whole thing on his behalf is that he sees her as a ticket out?  It doesn't sound like where she is is somewhere you'd want to raise kids.

Another option is at she just leaves you, has a fling with the other guy and then moves on.  So now she has no relationship and no chance of a baby.

Or she has a fling with the or guy and expects you to take her back and have babies immediately. Who thinks that's likely?  Or, who even thinks like that?

None of these make any sense

Also, how is her job going to view her dumping her husband and taking up with a local?

Her real option was to admit her attraction to the other guy to you, acknowledge the problems that are in your relationship (and hence why she was tempted).  Turn her back on the temptation and work to heal your relationship.  She seems to have well passed that one by.

People here say the dopemine fog is strong, and it really must be in this case.

Adding:  I went back and read your original post.  You said you had had 'various problems' for about a year that left you really struggling". It could be that those problems contributed to where you are today. You might have some work to do to repair that.  But she doesn't seem willing to work on anything right now.

PhoenixDown

FYI, "we saw each other again and only kissed" is nearly always cheater code for "we fucked."