General off topic thread jack avoiding thread.

frillyfun

If I feel cynicism creep in I remind myself that 1% of our population is currently incarcerated.  That's the highest percentage of any country in the world.

That means more than 99% of people are likely decent folks who just want a peaceful life (and/or criminal masterminds who can't be caught but anywho).  

99%. I like those odds.

RebuildingHusband

I don't want to provide too much personal identifying information but all of this shit basically occurred in my back yard. It's a damn mess down here right now. No matter what side of these situations (Alton Sterling, BRPD/EBRSO) that you're on, it sucks. I've got family in law enforcement and the medical profession so I'm very much in the middle of all of it. 

I can only hope and pray that this is a catalyst for change for the better. I'm hopeful that people use this as a moment of reflection, at least locally, to take a step back and reconsider their words and actions. There has been to much hate and violence even before these officers were senselessly injured and murdered. Our own elected leaders have been mired deep in it causing divisiveness and hurt rather than putting efforts into bringing the community together and healing. It's just sad, really. I'm not sure where it goes from here. 

Blackwulf

@RebuildingHusband I absolutely agree, the problems as I see them is there is not enough community policing.  It is hard for police officers to know their communities if they don't live in them. We are seeing the attacks in the weak spots first, then it will expand.  

Fixing these problems will require not just politics as usual but big thinking and implementation which I don't see our current federal government providing.  We have got to do it then from the bottom up.  We will have to protect our own communities and change them.  Hopefully leaders in these communities can come forward and lead and not impose from the outside their agendas.  

soa2005

I'll add my 2 cents. As some of you know I'm a cop. I work in an extremely violent area of a large city. It is not as bad as Chicago but it's also not unusual for us to have1-5 shootings on a daily basis. 

These are the main problems as I see it.
1. Technical comments from unqualified sources like pundits and politicians.
Police receive training, like use of force training, that is generally consistent with the specific states criminal procedure law. To the untrained or the inexperienced (majority of the public) it's pretty ugly looking when the police use force. This perceived ugly force appears to be even worse when politicians (with no police training) comment on an officers guilt before due process has run its course. The media picks up on the story and reports "eyewitness" accounts of the incident without verifying reports or doing the very basics in regards to fact checking.

Ferguson and then Baltimore are perfect examples of this. Politicians and pundits began a false narrative of "hands up don't shoot" in Ferguson that helped spread the unrest that was already occurring. "Hands up don't shoot" was later debunked not only by the state but also by the Feds. In Baltimore the prosecutor prematurely stated she was getting justice for all the protestors before the trials even started. As of right now , the majority of those officers in Baltimore were acquitted.

2. Decisions / statements are being made based on emotion instead of fact.  
People feel a certain way, and a lot of people in power are ignoring reason and caving to these feelings. An example of this is the governor of Minnesota stating that the Castile shooting wouldn't have happened if he was white. The only video evidence of the Castile shooting takes place after the shooting occurred. As of right now we do not have all of the facts leading up to the shooting. It may or may not be a bad shoot but it's irresponsible for elected leaders to make inflammatory statements with no evidence to support their theories. 

3. Monday morning quarterbacking from the comfort of a safe place.
Police respond to chaotic situations armed with training and a very limited idea of what the fuck is going on in a specific situation. Most high Priority calls that come in to 911 are placed by frantic people in emergency situations. Generally frantic people aren't that great at giving pertinent information in a timely fashion. Or, many times police just roll up on crazy shit happening in progress. My point is, for many of these situations police are forced to rely on their training while making split second life and death decisions with very limited information. 

Days later unqualified pundits and politicians, usually armed with tons of information that officers onscene weren't privy to, get to second guess officers from the safety of podiums and newsrooms. 

 
I'm fine with being held to a higher standard. I'm fine with having my actions scrutinized and questioned, after all I have a tremendous amount of power and an awesome responsibility.  All I ask is for a fair shake. I'm a cop but I'm also a citizen, therefore I have a right to due process and should be considered innocent until proven guilty like every average citizen. 

Crashaxe

Absolutely true, @soa2005.  Spot on. You explain things really well. 

Nobody tries to tell a National League pitcher how to throw a curve-ball, tell the doctor how to perform surgery, or tell a tailor how to sew a suit, but a lot of people think that they know more about how to use force appropriately than police officers do. From the safety of their recliners.

My daughter was horrified by the Baton Rouge shooting and thought it was terrible and wrong. I explained to her:

Use of force is never pretty, and is really terrible to see;

Never are these encounters neat and clean;

How things work in real life, and what police officers are thinking when they are in those situations, namely, "I don't want to get hurt or die.";

Shared with her a bunch of experiences I had;

That the cops are along for the ride and generally can only react to whatever action a suspect chooses to take;

The longer a fight goes on, the more likely injuries are going to occur to the suspect, officers, or bystanders, and police aren't supposed to have a "fair fight", but rather are expected to end the situation as quickly as possible with the least amount of force necessary, and generally the more officers that are involved in subduing a suspect, the less injury a suspect is going to have;

The suspect is legally and morally responsible for whatever happens as the result of the lawful response by police officers to the suspect's actions;

Sterling was Tasered twice to no effect and continued to resist;

Pointed out that if Sterling hadn't resisted the officers, none of what happened would have occurred,

That the confusion, limited vision and "fog of war" when wrestling with a suspect is extremely profound, and:

That she needed to remember that those police officers were in fear of their lives.

I told her that from what I had seen in the videos and what I knew about the incident, if I were involved, and saw or was told by my partner that Sterling was reaching for the gun, I almost certainly would have shot him too.


Her jaw dropped when I said that I almost certainly would have shot also, as she knows from 19 years of living with me how non-violent and altercation-avoiding I am. She came back to me two days later and said that after thinking about what I said, she now saw the whole incident in a different light and had done a 180 in her thinking.

She said that hearing me tell her that the suspect dictates what the police are going to have to do was the biggest thing that changed her perspective on the incident.

Crashaxe

Here is a great news story about an outspoken activist and police critic in Arizona who was invited to go through use of force scenarios by the local Sheriff's Office.

After he was shot by a suspect, and then subsequently shot an unarmed suspect, he stated that from now on, his message was going to be that people need to comply with police officers' lawful orders.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfi3Ndh3n-g 

RebuildingHusband

Thanks @shibari. Much appreciated. 

Beatrice

@Crashaxe ;  I have had several fruitful conversations recently that I begin by telling the story of how I had a gun pulled on me during a traffic stop. I was a passenger in the car, but the driver really didn't do anything "non-compliant".  She (and I) needed to know what a traffic stop looked like from an officer's perspective in order to do our part to make the stop safe for everyone.

It happened many years ago, and that officer was very pleased to find a couple of wide-eyed girls sitting in the car when he got up to the window.

Woman38

Whilst I sympathise/empathise/understand all of your comments and am fully aware this is a hot/controversial topic  and appreciate I am approaching this  from (perhaps) a different perspective I can't help but read the comments and think you are still seeing this from a white privilege perspective and are ignoring/denying that racism is very much alive and well (and accepted as the norm) in many parts of America.... I can't quote statistics to you but honestly I have watched some of the videos and there is NO denying that from a human perspective the actions of the police were WRONG... You can tell me all you like about the black and white members of the police that have been killed and that is absolutely terrible but that does not in any way take away the fact that the colour of someone's skin determines whether they will survive a police stop. IT JUST DOESN'T.

Angeline

@Woman38, no one has said that. We are not going to have that debate here. There are uncountable Twitter and Facebook posts crying out for your input. Please take it there. 

Woman38

Thanks for that @Angeline... that's really helpful.

Angeline

Woman38 said:

Thanks for that @Angeline... that's really helpful.

Careful, hon.

Athol_Kay

This is a marriage forum. Thread closed.

Take it all to the Disney boards or something and see how long your off topic horseshit lasts.