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Want to rekindle the fire
Snow_Phoenix
CalgarySilver Member Posts: 197
My first shot at triage is below. I'm sure the picture is not as complete as it could be but I welcome questions for clarification and will fill in the blanks as we go.
1. I am 41, hubby is 42. We have been married for 20 years and together for 3 years before that (high school sweethearts). No children and no plans to have any. I would say I am a 7 – 5’8” and 140lbs slim but could be fitter. Hubby was a 7 but has put on weight and I don’t see him as a 7 now, maybe a 6? He is 5’10” and I’m not sure about weight but I would say he could lose 40lbs.
2. Health wise I am probably the healthiest I’ve ever been. No meds other than the odd Advil for aches and pains. Don’t smoke, don’t drink. Not on birth control for the past 5 years or so after Hubby got a vasectomy.
Hubby takes meds for ADHD (which really help him focus) and daily heartburn meds. He has had some recent issues with gallstones and an enlarged spleen and is going for more tests. He often has stuffy sinuses and snores. He is no longer a smoker (quit almost a year ago, YAY!) but does drink (mostly beer). He is not fit and would really benefit from exercise.
3. No really big structural issues. We have good jobs, good home, good vehicles, reasonable / manageable debt, future financial plans in place. The only wish I would have would be to have hubby lose the extra pounds he is carrying but that doesn’t stop me from wanting to have sex with him.
4. I’m not quite sure about critical moments vs. the elephant in the room, they may be connected for me. I grew up in an alcoholic family so have issues with feeling safe around drunk people. A continuing theme in our relationship has been hubby getting drunk to the point of vomiting, often in front of my family / friends and I am humiliated. This does not happen often, not even once per year and I’ve repeatedly talked to Hubby about this and how much it hurts me / scares me / humiliates me when he does it. He apologizes, things go along fine and I start trusting again and then it happens again. I do not think he is an alcoholic but he does drink more than I’d like him to. I don’t talk to him about it or try to stop him in any way anymore. I’m not sure if this is a him issue or a me issue so don’t want to turn into a nag if what he is doing is just normal. I’m not sure I have a clear understanding of ‘normal’ because of my upbringing. I try to avoid being in situations that may lead to this behavior (don’t go to parties or social gatherings where there will be drinking). I have pulled back in order to protect myself from being hurt so am not as open, trusting and connected to Hubby as I’d like to be.
We are in a neglectful cycle right now and have been for a while. We don’t spend much quality time together. When we are at home together we are often in the same room but he is on his iPad and I am on my computer. We sometimes talk about our day but don’t really have conversations of much depth or importance.
5. I don’t think there is anything going on sexually outside the marriage…even though very little sexually is going on within the marriage. I could be wrong as he could theoretically be meeting someone during his lunch breaks but I just can’t see it. He is at work or at home, not out much other than that. We both have used porn together and apart but currently I’m not sure if he is even doing that much and I’ve been putting more time into trying to find ways to improve our marriage to get the sex back with him.
Comments
6. We have been together for a long time. At the beginning the sex was exciting and frequent. He was mostly the initiator and that made me feel like a goddess. It was great. This continued after we got married and everything was great for a while. Then I started loosing my desire for him. I felt like all he wanted was sex and I wasn’t feeling like he cared about ‘me’. I think, looking back, this may have been tied to the drinking issues and lack of trust. I think I also used rejection of sex as a way to ‘get back’ at him for hurting me. We didn’t communicate well back then so didn’t really talk things through and I’m not sure I had the clarity then that I have now either. I also think that the birth control pills played a roll in my lack of desire. Add to that the stress of University and work…well…we had our first sex drought. Hubby turned to porn and I went without…no desire, although I did have guilt when I didn’t want sex and I knew he did.
Fast forward…new jobs, more money, new house and I had a good chat with my doctor. Got off the pill and hello sex drive (for me)! Hubby got a vasectomy as we both agreed no kids and I thought this would be the turning point in our bedroom. Not so. Hubby was game for whatever I wanted when I initiated but rarely initiated anything himself (and the few times he did initiate it was just climbing into bed with me and very passively suggesting sex) which just turns me off. I have tried everything I can think of but we are still at that point. I’m afraid my rejection of him earlier in our relationship has now made him a passive partner afraid to make a move (I'm guessing). I long for the strong take charge guy he was back at the beginning of our relationship but I can’t seem to bring him back out. It seems that all of his energy is focused on his stressful job and then his iPad or the TV when he is home. I don’t need / want sex every day but a few times a month would be great and I really do need him to initiate. I don’t enjoy it as much when I am the one begging for it. I wish we could communicate about our needs and desires but nothing I’ve tried has worked. Another important thing is that we sleep in separate rooms and have done so for several years now. I am a terrible light sleeper and his snoring makes it tough for me to get good sleep. I would love to be able to sleep in the same bed again but he does not seem to want to see if there are ways to stop the snoring. I have tried ear plugs (and use them when we travel) but they don’t work well enough to be a long term solution.
7. Sex at the beginning of the relationship was frequent and exciting. He was the dominant one pursuing me and would push through if I was a bit resistant to get me in the mood.
8. I think the elephant is the drinking. In my perfect world he would not drink but why should he have to give up something he likes because I have hang ups about it. I need to dig deeper into this. When I see him drinking my automatic reaction is to withdraw. That isn’t helping us. I want him to be more plugged in to me and attentive to me. I sometimes feel like I am his mother or room mate more than his wife.
9. I am the leader in the relationship and I don’t really want to be (at least I'd like the balance of power to be more equal). I made a career change a few years ago to a less stressful job and since then I have taken on more of the daily tasks. I do the shopping, cooking, laundry, finances (pay bills ect), plan our vacations and 80% of the cleaning. He takes care of outside tasks, lawn mowing and snow removal and fixing stuff as required around the house (vehicle maintenance too). I sometimes feel like I am the maker of my own misery. In my mind I have taken on so many of the daily tasks to free up his time and lower his stress so he can focus more on me. In reality I have created a passive and lazy spouse who is happy to go to work and then come home to his recliner and iPad. He has everything he needs taken care of so why does he need to work on the relationship? I don’t mind the tasks I do, I like cooking and taking care of him but I want him to want me again.
10. Two years ago Hubby and I restored my old muscle car. It was awesome…he was the leader and showed me what to do. I got to see him in his element, where he was the expert and I loved his strength and confidence. He got to show me and teach me things and in the end we were really proud of what we accomplished together. We have also had some great vacations together over the past few years. Travelling to new places and seeing new things. The last trip though was tarnished by another excessive drinking incident.
Whew...ok...I welcome your input and suggestions.
For starters- vomit is not, and will never be sexy. Your normal meter isn't broken in that regard. Losing control of your facilities is a DLV. The beer isn't helping anything- his drive, the snoring, and the weight.
You've really nailed a bit part of your issue:
" He has everything he needs taken care of so why does he need to work on the relationship? "
Athol has a really great blog post about it:
http://marriedmansexlife.com/2012/11/beta-orbiting-wives-laid-maid-and-trayed/
I really like the MMSL Primer for Lazy Bear issues. The MAP is great, but I think the Primer is a better book for purely spousal issues.
My guess is that he probably has low testosterone. Lazy, foggy, tired all the time, no sex drive. He's hitting a lot of the marks. It could also be sleep apnea that's tanking his drive.
Getting him a testosterone test, and maybe a sleep study is probably a good idea.
But the only person you can change is you. Get to the gym, spiff yourself up, and then figure out what you want out of your marriage.
I didn't feel the need to hide my MAP from my H. I gave him a copy of the primer, but lazy bears don't tend to read it in the early days. You have to get a little further along before they read the book and catch up.
Good luck!
I'm seeing a potential medical problem, maybe a couple.
-Your husband snores. This could be due to overweight, or he might have sleep apnea (or both). If he has apnea, that could be causing the tiredness and low energy. He should get this checked by a doctor.
- The lack of sex drive/initiation might indicate low testosterone. @Serenity is our Low-T expert; she might have more to say on this.
Meanwhile, work on your MAP, and look for ways you can encourage him to lead. A second muscle car, perhaps?
Enneagram 5w4. I'm researching what that means, before designing t-shirt art about it.
"I feel no shame in making lavish use of the strongest muscles, namely male ones (but my own strongest muscle is dedicated to the service of men - noblesse oblige). I don't begrudge men one whit of their natural advantages as long as they respect mine. I am not an unhappy pseudomale; I am female and like it that way." RAH
I will revisit the medical stuff with him. He is seeing his doc more now because of the gallbladder stuff so I'll see if I can get him to bring up the testosterone test (is it just a blood test? he just had a blood panel done would that have included it or does it have to be specifically requested?). We talked about the possibility of sleep apnea long ago when we both were sleeping in the same bed. He seemed to me to stop breathing sometimes when he was sleeping but getting him to see anyone about it never went anywhere. He has a much better doctor now though so it's worth another try!
I read the link that FrillyFun posted and was a bit sad reading it, sigh...I just wanted doing things for him to work! LOL I will have to do some mulling about how to proceed in order to get out of the maid and trayed role (I say as I start cooking dinner
I have downloaded the MMSL Primer to my Kindle and will read it through. Will also suggest it to Hubby so he can put it on his iPad. He isn't much of a reader so I'm not super hopeful that he'll take it on but you never know.
Love the second car idea but the muscle cars are really my passion. He is a bike guy though so maybe I could suggest we build a bike for our next project. He is way more alpha when he's on his Harley...too bad our winters aren't appropriate bike weather!
I've got a workout plan in place for me. I work from home and have a home gym here so I just have to do it. I'm also going to make sure I 'girl up' each day. I have to admit since I started working from home a ball cap and no makeup have become my routine! That will stop pronto!
There is a blood test for testosterone levels, and a few other things that can contribute to lazy bear syndrome. Your best bet is to go to an anti-aging clinic, and they tend to do a little better treating it. It looks like there are a few in Calgary.
Don't feel too bad about taking on the household chores. I actually gave mine a BJ every day for a week, and then wondered why he was still a lazy dolt.
I still cook dinner every night. The difference is H does the dishes so it's more of a trade-off. If he doesn't wash the dishes I don't cook.
With a lazy bear you have to push the MAP pretty far. I had a solid go plan, and separation paperwork in order before he really did much with a MAP. It's stupid that it has to come to that, but it usually does. After he bought in things have gone pretty well though.
How much beer are we talking here? A "few" per night can be enough to cause the snoring and fogginess. And hops are very estrogenic, enough to kill drive in some men.
One guy might need a six pack per day to see bad effects, whereas another could see results from just a couple per week.
I'm dealing with a similar situation in that my husband abuses alcohol but it took me almost two years of MAPing to see how much of a problem my husband's alcohol consumption has been to our 20 year relationship.
In the beginning of my MAP, I spent a lot of time focused on him... encouraging testosterone tests, sleep addressed, exercise and food plans and he's moved forward on a lot of these things for the better, but for every step forward strangely it always felt like we were sliding backwards. I had a really hard time celebrating the gains. There was still all this tension. I felt selfishly unimpressed with his efforts. I continued to feel worry and feel frustration, fear and loneliness.
What I've come to realize is that #1, my focus was too much on him and not enough on me, and #2, alcohol was an unwelcome bedfellow contaminating our every move towards progress.
Sounds like your husband would be helped by looking into his testosterone, sleep, diet, exercise... but there's a catch. Any efforts to address these issues are hampered by the alcohol. It doesn't matter if its once-in-while binge drinking or daily/weekly over-consumption, its a problem. Its a problem because not only is it negatively affecting his physical and mental state, you are uncomfortable with it.
Is his drinking alcohol abuse? is he an alcoholic? is it excess? There's so much info out there about what constitutes a problem. I ask myself a simple question. Is my husband's drinking adding anything positive to the relationship? My answer is no. So his drinking no matter how much, or when or where is a problem for US.
I wish I could offer a magic speech that would make your husband want to leave his alcohol abuse behind and want to work on making your marriage stronger. I don't have one though. Talking hasn't helped my situation.
My MAP has though. I'm still hoping someday that my hubby decides our relationship is more important than his scotch but that's not my focus or reason for MAPing. I do it for me and leave a door open for anyone to join in on the fun.
I'm excited for you that you found this place and that you are reading the books.
http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/arh25-4/282-287.htm
Just FYI, Giving this to my hubby didn't work either.
Did you clearly talk to your hubby about quitting his scotch all together? I've never asked mine to stop drinking completely. Societal norms tell me that drinking is 'normal' and I question if I am being unfair to ask him to stop doing something that he enjoys and is 'normal'. I do not see his drinking as doing anything positive for our relationship but it must give him enjoyment so is it ok for me to try and take that away?
If his drinking is 'normal' is there something that I can fix within myself to stop the negative feelings I have towards it? I wonder if my own upbringing and baggage skews my perception of his drinking. I can only change myself right?
Wow...busy brain time for me! Time to hit the exercise equipment and do some thinking!
I'll tackle the link you posted after some exercise time.
Thanks again!
You can't control someone's drinking.
The only thing you can do is withdraw any support you're giving him towards it. Don't buy any for him, don't bring him a beer while he's sitting down relaxing, don't pick up or recycle his empties.
MAP. Get a few weeks under your belt, and see where you stand.
Eventually you'll get to a point where you can give him a copy of the primer, and ask him to join you in Awesomeville (just across the river from Poundtown), or he can make other arrangements for his life. But you're not there yet. Focus on yourself first.
As stated by others, you can't make him stop. He will have to want to change his habits. You may well have to Phase IV him to get him to appreciate how important it is. You're in the early stages of your MAP so that is far in the distance. I'm with @frillyfun in saying you need to focus on yourself. It may be a year from now or longer until you're in a place where you can make that ultimatum but if you don't work toward it you'll be at the same place you are now.
"Treating her like a princess didn't make me a prince, it made me a servant."
Link to triage questions: http://marriedmansexlife.com/triage-your-relationship-and-the-911-er-category/
Let me know if you'ld like info about "I" statements, feelings statements and DARVO.
Your best next move is to layout your MAP by listing your greens/yellows and reds.
Share it here so people can help you.
I am feeling a bit overwhelmed with it all but will start with building my MAP and start working from there. I've finished reading MAP but am only half way through the MMSL Primer. I'm loving the primer...there were a few chapters where I have actually said out loud "YES, THIS IS EXACTLY HOW I FEEL". I'm going to pass this one on to Hubby and ask that he read it when I'm done. I think he would get into the primer more than the MAP book.
I have never been to an Al-anon meeting but will investigate that. I really appreciate everyone's thoughts and input on the drinking issue.
@mongrel you have no idea how much I am dreaming of getting to poundtown! It is very hard to have the desire burning inside but Hubby never initiates...and if I initiate the desire fades...at least I understand why now that I've found the books!
In the meantime I will get on the road to awesomeville...workout plan is underway (today will be day 4). I did some fun reading in the DHV Women's forum and am going to pick up some hot rollers for my hair and give the ball cap some time off. Might even paint my toenails LOL.
@sasha I will do a search on DARVO (not familiar with that) and have tried using 'I' statements when talking to Hubby about my feelings in the past but would welcome anything you'd like to share as I obviously haven't been very successful so far.
Really appreciate the help and support from everyone!
I am sorry you are in a difficult place right now, but so glad you found the forum. You sound like you are motivated and well on your way to putting together a MAP for yourself. It can seem a bit overwhelming at first. Just take it one step at a time. Lay out your MAP and with that as your guide you can just do the next thing. You can do this!
Good Luck!
I went looking for my dreams outside of myself and discovered, it's not what the world holds for you, it's what you bring to it.
Anne Shirley - Anne of Avonlea
Welcome @snow_phoenix!
I would suggest you search the forum threads for "lazy Bear husband", and immerse yourself in reading alot of those threads. Each individual relationship dynamic is different, You will start to gain insite into the common patterns of a lazy bear husband. How low "T" plays its role, alcohol its role, Porn usage its roll, and the patterns of your relationship communication dynamic (existent, non-existent, angry, passive-aggressive, etc). ALL of these play a roll in your future MAP. Most of the feed back has focused on the drinking, which obviously is a part of the picture, but I would not grasp onto that first as the biggest contributing factor. Going to al-anon meetings and getting familiar with AA seems to be a bit much at this point. Take a deep breath and just soak it all in. Many people lurk for months just reading all they can, learning and absorbing the huge amount of info that is present on the forum.
And maybe, if you can swing it, the best piece of advice I can give you is to schedule a call to Athol, and cut through all the "free advise" that may side-track you for months, spinning your wheels, as you sort through and process all of the "helpful suggestions".
The forum is a wonderful place to vent, get validation, and to receive uplifting support, especially from the women. You truly are not alone! But I would caution you to stick to Athol and his team for the professional advise they can give.
I am an action oriented person so will focus on the simple/safe things that I can do to improve myself right away (working out, paying more attention to 'girling up') as those will make me feel good anyway. I won't be doing anything too drastic or impulsive till I have time for all the new info to soak in.
I'm going to finish up the MMSL Primer shortly and see if I can work it into a conversation with Hubby tonight or tomorrow, as we finally have some down time together. I would really love to engage him in this process and maybe we could have a coaching session with Athol together. If he doesn't seem receptive I will look into a session with Athol or his team for just me as I carry on with my journey.
It's hard to not get excited about the possibilities of what our marriage can be when I read through some of the stories here. I have hope but will try to be patient and realistic too.
Now off to read about Lazy Bears
@snow_phoenix,
Being excited about the possibilities is what drives us all forward! I merely wanted to help you avoid some of the common and frustrating pitfalls of the newly initiated...
We are all excited for you, and we love success stories!
When a person joins AA they are often advised to not make ANY major, life changing decisions for one year. This is because if they stick with it for a year it is going to be one roller coaster of a time. Their perspective of the world and understanding of themselves will change rapidly and not necessarily linearly. Often there are fits and starts. They need to concentrate one one thing and that is sobriety.
I see a very similar dynamic for myself with accepting the perpsective that Athol lays out for me in MMSL. I have gone through profound changes in perspective and behavior in the last year. I went from thinking my marriage was doomed and I would never be happy if I stayed, to thinking I might be in one of the best marriages of the people that I know.
(I DO NOT talk to my wife about my map AT ALL. I DO NOT share this web site or the books with her) she seems to have responded to my changes very positively without asking many questions, and I don't volunteer any explanations. I just do stuff.
What I want to suggest is don't make huge changes, concentrate on your mapping for a year. See how it fits. Of course, like all plans mapping is subject to change as circumstances dictate.
But these people on this site are unfucking believable. (In a good way!)
Myself, my wife, and my family are indebted to these people.