GF has young kids, mine are grown... let's talk boundaries

MOTU

Hello all,

my very long backstory is here http://marriedmansexlife.vanillaforums.com/discussion/12876/the-story-of-motu, but the key takeaway for this discussion is that I have very little experience at being a boyfriend as my prior 2 relationships were marriages of 16 and 6 years, with very little single time in between.

I am now in what I believe to be a healthy relationship with a quality woman. I took TRP 2 years ago after divorce 2 and I have been devouring Athol's stuff and found it very helpful as I transition from single to a LTR. GF and I have been dating aprrox 6 or 7 months and exclusive around 4.

My GF, 40yo, has 2 young girls: 5 and 7. I am 44yo and my kids, also all girls, are grown (24, 22 and 19) with the youngest in college and home on breaks and the other two living close by. What's weird is that I have 2 granddaughters, 2 and 5 - so my granddaughter is the same age as her daughter.

So let's talk boundaries on my interactions with her kids. At this point, I do not want to take responsibility for them. I do see them about every other week, more here during the holidays (which is what has gotten me thinking on this topic). I don't ever spend the night at GF's house but her kids have stayed at my house 3x, including christmas eve. I get along well with them, we play and interact. They are generally well behaved and GF is a good parent (and I wouldn't respect her if she wasn't).

So what is a healthy role for a BF to play? Right now, I generally take no position of authority with them - ex: if they ask for a sprite, I tell them to ask their mom. The notable exception would be when it comes to my stuff: "kid, don't touch that guitar without my permission, it's not a toy".  I have established authority with them by asking them to do things for me - that's actually something I do with nearly everyone who comes into my house - I give them some small, innocuous  task to do to demonstrate that they are in my castle and I am king here: "can you put this in the garage for me please?".

I also am careful on how much I counsel GF on kid or baby-daddy matters. She has the typical ex problems like passive agressive behaviour, him bad mouthing her or me, etc (they have been divorced 3yrs). She doesn't dump on me and our conversations on those topics are usually brief. Sometimes I'll tell her a story of what has worked for me in the past (since I have been through the situations she faces) and she has said she finds that helpful.

In other areas, GF and I are very much Captain - FO. But does me abstaining from the parenting stuff DLV? Should I be comfortable taking some leadership there too? And is taking leadership the same as taking responsibility?

Thoughts, experiences, recommended reading are all welcome.

Jek

I think you are handling it perfectly.  DLV would be doing something that you don't want to do.
If you went on to marry this girl, yes, you would need to take a parental role as well as husband.

raymay

$0.02

I think your basic outline above is good.  As time goes on, if you were to try to exert authority on the kids, they will eventually rebel and cause lots of chaos in your relationship.  I think you abstain from parenting is DHV if you outline all the negatives that will come from doing you trying to parent.   They will NEVER be your bio-kids (a relationship vulnerabilty) and if there is one iotta of disagreement between parenting styles, that vulnerabilty will blow up and drive your and your GF apart.  The kids, as they get older will leverage that vulnerabilty too.  They may come to see you as the interloper that has ruined their life in some unforeseen youthful way.  IF she were to ask about some problem and request your opinion, sure, give it.   After all, you have a wealth of experience raising 3 girls.   

However, My opinion:  I come from a Dr. Laura view point.  Your GF should not be dating with minor children.   She chose poorly the first time and made babies.  Now the kids are having to go through more unstableness as your relationship grows and the ex continues to inject himself and be shitty.  Yet the ex will Always be there and always have an influence (negative)on both your lives because those girls are his girls. This influence creates a stress on your relationship (you and GF's) that her kids will also have to deal with.  Stats claim that after a first divorce, 70% of second marriages fail precisely because of these instabilities; and armed with that, who would choose to put their kids through that drama?  The ex AND the vulnerability mentioned above creates very negative odds for a positive outcome.  

My immediate gut instinct when i read you post was, ask your girls if they liked the first divorce and then the second and about the stress and instability it caused them.   They are old enough now to talk a little about these things. 

HildaCorners

I think you're doing fine.

You are "Mommy's special friend." As such, you are Captain in your own home and set the rules there — including any on the spot parenting needed ("Go wash your hands before dinner"). In your GF's house, she is Captain of the kids (if she allows the kids to eat without washing, her decision. You can talk to her about it in private). Yes there are two sets of rules, but as long as the line between them is clear, kids won't have a problem.

The big problem will come if/when you move in together, when the two sets of rules would be combined into one. But it doesn't sound like that's happening any time soon, if at all.

Joanna

raymay said:

However, My opinion:  I come from a Dr. Laura view point.  Your GF should not be dating with minor children.   She chose poorly the first time and made babies.  Now the kids are having to go through more unstableness as your relationship grows and the ex continues to inject himself and be shitty.  Yet the ex will Always be there and always have an influence (negative)on both your lives because those girls are his girls. This influence creates a stress on your relationship (you and GF's) that her kids will also have to deal with.  Stats claim that after a first divorce, 70% of second marriages fail precisely because of these instabilities; and armed with that, who would choose to put their kids through that drama?  The ex AND the vulnerability mentioned above creates very negative odds for a positive outcome.  

My immediate gut instinct when i read you post was, ask your girls if they liked the first divorce and then the second and about the stress and instability it caused them.   They are old enough now to talk a little about these things. 

You can't expect an adult to not have a relationship for 18 years just because they have kids. Being a single parent is hard enough as it is; it shouldn't have to involve sacrificing a sex and romantic life on top of everything else.

Of course the kids shouldn't have to meet every man their mother goes out with; that would indeed be stressful and hurtful.
But I don't see any problem with her meeting men during her child-free time, and if she's been with one man for a long time and they plan on staying together forever, and she doesn't have a particularly bad record of falsely believing that the current guy is "the one" all the time, and he gets along with children, at some point it starts to make sense to spend time with both him and the kids at the same time (if they like each other, obviously).

(Four months of exclusivity don't really count as a long time in my eyes, but they've already been introduced and have spent time together, so at this point it doesn't really matter).

MOTU

Thanks all. I am the only BF she has had and first guy to meet the kids. We dated about 4 months before I met them and that we because I threw GF a Bday party at my house. But things really seemed to have accelerated through the holidays. I enjoyed having GF and her kids here on Christmas but it was also a bit of a wake up call and reminded me that I don't really know how to have a BF/GF relationship that isn't on the fast track to marriage.

GF doesn't give off the "I am hunting for a replacement baby daddy" vibe (I dated some women who did, though!) but I know that has to be what she will eventually want. Her living with or marrying me would clearly be in her and her children's best interest: I have a nice house, pool, I can cook, etc. But I feel I have established a strong alpha frame and though she may want me to play a provider role, I don't think she expects it.

@raymay, you make good points about complex issues in a relationship where one or both have kids. And about my second divorce being hard on my kids, even though the older two were out of the house. This creates mixed feelings for me. When M2 was healthy, having a stepmom was positive for my kids because their mother was making bad life choices and had lots of self destructive behaviors. It also allowed me to do things for them that I couldn't have done otherwise (like having them in dance class) because I travel for work. There were times my kids didn't see their mother for over a month. 

I also know what kind of pressure that put on my relationship wih wife2. That makes me think "why get involved with this woman who has little kids? You know how hard that path is if you stay together", which is true. Then I think "but you learned from that and you can manage better this time". Then I think "if you can be a positive influence in these kids lives, while still being happy and fulfilled yourself, why wouldn't you? What greater gift can you give the world than loving a child?". Then I go back to "run away, run away!" Lol.

so I would say my thoughts and feelings are evolving. I have made a commitment to myself that I am not going to make any major life decisions until my youngest has been off at college for at least a full year. That's Sept 2015. I also know that whatever I do, I'll do it deliberately instead of being on relationship cruise control.

Ben

I don't have kids, so take absolutely everything I am about to say with a grain of salt.

Four months of exclusivity seems VERY quick to introduce you to such young children.  You may not (consciously) consider yourself on the fast track to marriage, but she does.  Having them over on Christmas Eve is huge.  That's a big important holiday that is usually spent with family; by spending it with them, you are sending a message that you consider them family (and vice versa).  If that's not the case, you need to seriously think about what kind of relationship you DO want to have with this woman and her children and how to make your actions consistent with that.

That said, the situation is what it is, and if you're going to continue to be a presence in these children's lives, it sounds like you're handling it fine.  The only thing I'd add to what @HildaCorners said is that, if you haven't already, it would be a good idea to discuss parenting styles with GF so that you don't have to visibly defer to her about simple things.  If her 7-year-old asks you if she can have a Coke and you don't know the answer, of course you should ask her mother rather than make an assumption that could lead to confusion and conflict... but you should already know the answer without having to ask in that moment.

bjornagain

Not to be a wet blanket but just point out a few things. A buddy at work has a 28 year old daughter from wife number 1.  wife 3 has a kid 8. He is 58.  He is now a dad to a middle schooler and soon to be granddad. I am a recent empty nester.  we often talk that in ten years he will be retired with a teenager. for him it is the elixer of life. for me.  I wouldnt have the energy.

point is if this gets serious you will have to come to terms with starting the cycle over again. you are relatively young so in ten years you will be fifty with 17 year olds. doable definitely.

but you have to be secure in where you are in your life cycle. to you and to her. at forty she isnt likely to get more than one or two shots at best after you so if you are not serious you have to make a decision and not make her use up her pretty in vain.

if I am off base I apologize in advance. I just strongly beleve in involved father figures  letti g the kids attach is an important step.

Angeline

I agree with @Ben and @bjornagain, and I don't think things should have progressed this far without you being rock solid sure you knew what her long term goals are relationship-wise. Barn door open and all that, now you need to make damned sure you do know, and as Bjorn said, let her go if your goals are different. Don't do boyfriend type stuff if you don't want to be serious. 

MOTU

Thanks to all who have commented, this is really helpful to me.

@ben, @angeline, you make good points about me being sure where I want things to end up, relationship wise. My history is to move really fast and I am trying to not do that again, but obviously not very successfully. I can definitely say that I am in love with her, and I would like for things between us to be long term, like forever long term. But my prior bad mate selection decisions make me question my own judgement in that regard. Ideally, things would stay just like they are right now for another year or so. 

That being said, how do you really screen without including the kids? Isn't part of the screening process seeing what quality of parent she is, whether our parenting styles are similar, how she deals with ex drama, whether he kids are just flat annoying, etc? Given my first hand experience with the effects of divorce on kids, knowing what kind of single parent she is tells me a lot about what kind of person she is. And I know that if we were to marry, there is no way that all that stuff would be "her problem" and that I would just be an innocent bystander. Because I lover her, and because my natural tendency is that of a caretaker, those would quickly become my problems as well.

@bjornagain, great point on "starting over". My girls all did dance/drill throughout middle school and into high school. I remember when my youngest decided not to dance her senior year. I was so so excited to get my friday nights back!! Do I want to go back to that kind of place, where there are kids activities every weekend? And would I feel obligated to attend them all, even of I wanted to go on a hike instead? These are good questions.

Anyone else read the book "stumbling on happiness"? The basic point of the book is that for various reasons, we are generally not very good at predicting what will make us happy in the future. It impacted me so much I actually read it twice. If you really think it through, it has pretty strong implications on what life choices you make.

Angeline

You cant predict with total accuracy what will make you happy, but I'm guessing you can pick with damn near perfection the stuff that will make you unhappy.

You can glean a lot about what kind of parent they are before meeting the kids. I'm not saying don't meet them, but there should be a much longer period of selection of their mom before doing so.

You've also used caretaker now twice, as if that's a good thing. I would consider how much if that is White Knight lack of boundaries.

Ben

MOTU said:

That being said, how do you really screen without including the kids?

Slowly and carefully.  A good rule of thumb is two years of dating before making any big moves like cohabitation or marriage.  That timeline should be slower, not quicker, if there are kids in the picture.  You've only known this woman six months.  What's your hurry?

And not for nothing, but it's a red flag that she was willing to introduce you to them so quickly.

Look, you can't put the genie back in the bottle.  Just proceed slowly and carefully from here, keep your eyes open and your head as clear as you can.  Saying this as a man who hasn't always taken my own advice.  (-:

MOTU

Angeline said:

You've also used caretaker now twice, as if that's a good thing. I would consider how much if that is White Knight lack of boundaries.

No, I know that it is not a good thing, but it is my natural tendency so I have to recognize it and take steps to mitigate it. And it is very much why I wanted to talk boundaries when I opened this thread.

MOTU

@ben, thanks. It's interesting that everyone here thinks 4mos was fast meeting the kids - to me it was a longer-than-most waiting period. Goes to show how your perspective of normal can be skewed by your environment and past experiences.

slow and steady is the go forward plan.

So are there practical boundaries you all would suggest? Like:
- me not spending the night at her house
- no overnight trips with kids
- her kids only stay here because of a special event/occasion, perhaps when my granddaughter is also here (think: Super Bowl party where all the kids crash upstairs
- no kid specific events (like school plays) unless it is something I am doing already and invite her and her kids along (I am active in my granddaughters lives; I take them to parks, shows, etc)

what else?

Ben

Those seem good.  Especially where your granddaughter is concerned, then you can frame it as a playdate rather than as you spending time with her kids.  It lets the kids see you as their friend's grandpa, giving them a context to put you in that's not confusing for them.

dalef

I'm surprised it took 4 months, my experience (limited, I dated few women with children) was a lot shorter.

Angeline

We all know stories about people who knew each other for 2 months or 3 weeks or whatever, and lived happily ever after. None of those people are here. What we have here are many people who chose to overlook glaring problems, either from the outset, or as they developed, in favor of what they wanted to believe. These are the people who need to go SLOWER than the average for dating, living together, marriage. Because they've already proved they're not great at picking people.

I advise people to date long enough to experience these things together:

• Travel together, hopefully a long enough journey to experience some difficulties - delays, the favorite restaurant has closed, unexpected SNAFUs, weather, rental car trouble, etc.
• A couple of major holidays that have family expectations - Thanksgiving, Christmas
• A weekend in a shared apartment/hotel room puking, venting from all orifices sick
• A friend's wedding
• Across several seasons including winter up north or summer in the south

You'd get a real sense of the person's character going through stuff like that. Next best thing you can do now is pay attention to how she handles adversity and changes in plans and finances. Does she handle the blended group of kids well? Since it sounds like you'd want to continue to have your grandchildren in your life, you don't want a partner who makes this difficult.

And be ready to get out if you need to, don't allow the sunk cost fallacy to cause you to stick with something far beyond the point you should have bailed.

zeroday

I thought when you date a woman with kids....you are dating a woman with kids.   If her identity is built with te children how is it possible to take one without the other.   Essentially what is your role?  And what's her expectation?  While she may not be "shopping". For a dad replacement surely she wishes security for herself and children.   ??  I mean all this seriously because my ex had a small child and I had real issues with. Boundaries,  expectations.   Etc

HildaCorners

@zeroday‌, some women with kids are women WITH KIDS and others are women (with kids). There's a huge difference between momma who is looking for a new baby daddy and a woman with kids in high school and college with shared custody that works well.

The key is finding out if you are dating one woman who happens to have young obligations or if you're being vetted for your abilities as a father.

You find this out, and a lot more, by dealing with the situations @Angeline‌ mentioned. If she is self-reliant, flexible, calm under pressure and fun to be with, chances are she's not hunting for a father for her babes.

dalef

Unless her ex has primary custody, you can't avoid a major role with her young children if you live with her. One woman I dated made a lot of money (more than me and I had a well above average income, so she wasn't searching for beta bucks); but with a 4 year old and a 2 year old (and willing to have more with me) I would have had to taken some sort of father role.

Jek

How are you going to maintain boundaries when relating to them while your granddaughter is there?

If your granddaughter crawls up on your lap to watch tv, can you comfortably deny your gf's daughters from doing the same?

What boundaries would you plan on implementing here?