Q1 - I am 40, she is 38. We have been married 15 years, together 19. We have two children, 5 & 1.5 yrs. I am 6'2" 205#, she is 5'6" 190#. As for how hot...I doubt very. I was not successful with women before we met, and I'm not drawing any outside interest now.
Q2 - We are not on any medications or have any chronic health issues other than each of us being overweight, her more than me.
Q3 - No structural issues. We have a 5000 sqft house in a nice college town. I earn $150k+ per year at a Fortune 50 company.
Q4 - Neglect - I spend about 30 weeknights in hotels a year. Frequently during the workday I am 2+ hours from home. I return each night (usually before kids bedtime), but it is stressful for the W because I cannot be responsive to issues that arise (e.g. kid got sick at school).
Q5 - Amateur PI work on computers/phone/credit cards has uncovered no outside sexual sources. I'm sure she masturbates, but I have never found any evidence of it. I have never had an affair.
Q6&7 - When did the sex go bad will have a nuanced answer because it was never really good. Before marriage, it was oral 2-3 times per week, plus another 1-2 HJ. No intercourse because we were "waiting for marriage" (a prime motivator to get married). After marriage before kids, still no intercourse for fear of pregnancy and "it hurt". Oral 0-1 times per week, 1-2 HJ. Had intercourse when trying conceive, first time was more than 7 years into the marriage. Usually starfish, but occasionally passionate. And only when she was ovulating. After first child, oral never, 1-2 HJ per month. Never intercourse unless she was ovulating. This intercourse had degraded from starfish to "you beat off until you're just about to cum, then stick it in there". Last time we had passionate intercourse was August 2011. Post child #2, oral & intercourse never, 0-2 HJ per month.
Q8 - the elephant in the room is probably a) how bad the sex always was as detailed above or b) I am not socially dominant, rather I am socially awkward. I usually disengage at social events and go off alone. I have inadvertently offended her friends with what I thought were innocuous comments or observations. Ex #1: was at a party at her friends house. I declined the offer of a drink. Her friend, who drinks a lot, thought I was being judgmental about her drinking. Ex #2: at a party with kids. The kids were getting rowdy. I volunteered to settle the kids. When I returned to the adults, I relayed that I told the kids they were being dumb, to knock it off and let's compromise on how they will watch the movie. Her friend criticized my approach, so I told her that she could deal with the kids next time and walked away. Her friend was DEEPLY OFFENDED by my response. I recognize that a charming alpha could have delivered the exact same line and been swooned over, but a socially awkward guy like me comes across as a jerk.
Q9 - Honestly, she is the leader. I try, but it's constant fighting, nagging, shit testing, and it wears me down. In re: beta around the house, I do 80% of the routine household chores (cooking, dishes, cleaning, laundry, food shopping, etc.) and 100% of the non-routing chores (roofing, yard maintenance, car repair, plumbing, etc.). She watches 90% of the TV. Neither of us plays video games. She does 75% of the kid tasks (carpooling to school, volunteering in classroom, help with homework, etc.). We split 50/50 the play time / supervision of kids. I tried pushing her to do more of the chores, but I despaired when I could barely cross the bedroom for all the dirty laundry piled up and had no clean dishes to eat off of, which was just as well because there was no dinner made anyway.
Q10 - at best, when we are really getting along, we have an AAAAAAF relationship. Well, not all A's. Even then, I am still resentful of making all the money and still doing all the dishes. She has expressed that she misses the travel we used to do (3 vacations per year) before we had kids. We have similar interests and activities that we share. We also each maintain some separate interests to have our own time - I play soccer and watch a game on TV about every other week, she doesn't care for soccer but often goes out with her GF's to see musicals or high-concept films.
Been running the MAP for three years. I dropped 35# and probably more than that in fat. I went from 50# bench press when I started hitting the gym to 245#. Cardio from "walking" to running 5+ miles twice per week. Income improved from $100k to over $150k. Spent some of that extra money on new clothes. However, sex life and overall sense of relationship satisfaction is lower than before. She seems less interested in me and now seems constantly disappointed. Shit tests have increased - clearly, I am not passing them and I've grown exceptionally weary of facing them.
In August 2014 and three weeks ago, went through the Phase 4 direct statement that the lack of sex was a problem and I was unhappy in the relationship as a result. I gave her a pass on the August Phase 4 discussion because the baby was less than a year old, so maybe that was an excuse (giving the pass here was probably a mistake). Heading through Phase 5, though I don't want to, but it happens toward the Phase 6 Ultimatum. I would rather not get there, so I'm checking here for triage first. I do wonder, given how atypically tepid the sex life always was, if there is nothing to rekindle. If the lack of sex from the beginning means that a passionate sexual relationship is not possible here because in retrospect, there never was any attraction.
0
Comments
It isn't lack of sex per se that is a bad omen for success in turning things around, but lack of attraction. It does sound like she at least likes you, wants to take vacations with you. I think, or does she go off and fo her own thing on trips. Is there any hotel sex or added sexy times on trips?
It sounds like you ran a great MAP everywhere but at home. It doesn't seem like there were ever any expectations laid out until the explosion 3 weeks ago? Or if there were, there was no way to enforce them. Have you ever stopped doing chores altogether? Maybe when the kids are out of school for the summer and lack of laundry and cooked meals won't be an issue, just stop. Kids can survive a week or two of PB&J and no clean laundry, but I'm guessing it might get to her.
Remember to play!
Do the right thing, whether anyone is watching or not.
Be married, until you are not.
Email address: angeline.greenwood@att.net
MAPing and building your attractiveness as a man than getting in shape, dressing better, and earning more. From the limited information you have given here, it seems that you are displaying a lot of bad (supplicating) beta and very little alpha at all in your relationship with your wife. It seems she gets to do (or not do) whatever she wants while you take care of most of the household needs without you establishing expectations or holding her accountable. If your wife doesn't respect you and see you as a strong leader, you looking better isn't going to have her jumping your bones.
I am going to start right off the bat by saying that the way things started off with you sexually sounds very problematical. It speaks to me of a few possibilities:
- She wanted to be married more than she wanted a husband.
- She sees sex as a means of landing you, but was never really attracted.
- There are health/psych problems that are not immediately apparent.
- You are not particularly sexually compatible.
I tend to eliminate the first one, because she could have divorced you ages ago if she figured out that she didn't want a husband. The last one is possible - you mentioned pain. Tell us about that.The middle two seem like our two best bets. I'd like to know a little more about the wait for sex. Did you consummate on your wedding night? Did you try for awhile before the sex evaporated, or was she adverse to intercourse from the beginning?
Now, as to attraction, I'll make some observations and I want to see how they resonate with you:
First, is that if she doesn't see you, there is not much chance that she will be able to respond to your improvements. I worry that your long hours are a source of CMoNs or at least are DLVs to her. There is a fine balance to be struck between money and hours. I bow to the ladies to give you solid perspective on that one.
Second, you say her friends don't care for you - that is a problem, because it is eliminating preselection for you. If her friends like you, she will see that as a DHV. This is fixable with a little careful social dance. It involves identifying the queen bee and schmoozing with her first.
Third, it sounds like honing your people skills could go a long way. You have directness and honesty down, those are a good start. It sounds like humour, patience, and confidence are the missing element. I don't believe in Charisma - charming other people is a skill. I think we can definitely help you there.
Fourth, on the social front again, you are an introvert. Like me, you find a lot of time around people taxing. You'd rather be on your own. The trick is learning how to psych yourself up for social gatherings so that you can put in a good few hours of your most charming slef, and then decompress later. There are tricks to this.
Fifth, you are not kind to yourself. There are at least four places in your triage where you reduced your own value, and chipped away at your personal confidence through the way you talk about yourself. I am going to suggest that you take the self-talk challenge - see how long you can go without talking poorly about yourself.
Sixth, I don't see the Beta here. How do you do on making he feel loved and cherished. What's her love language, and how do you speak it to her? What makes you feel loved, and does she give it to you?
Seventh is leverage. Like @Angeline says, you can only push back so far unless you are bringing something to the table that you are willing to take away. This help around the house is being taken for granted, and cutting back is a good first step.
The eighth factor here is a matter of what she is attracted to. If you know she masturbates, then we know she has fantasies. Figuring out which kind of Alpha turns her on will be a great way to fine-tune things for yourself.
I am also going to say that you sound pretty demoralized. Take heart, one way or another we can help you get the sex life you want.
Last thought for the initial barrage: how much porn do you use? You didn't say anything about your own outside sexual sources other than that you have never had an affair. What else is going on?
All men are great men, most fail to see the greatness in themselves.
Power, Passion, Principle and Purpose: The Wild Man Project
My most popular articles: The Art of the Apology (also on video), The Basics of Assertiveness, The Art of Friendship
Thanks for the responses. For some of the questions:
@Angeline – she has only once taken a trip without me, that was to a beach house with nine of her other married GF’s. There were enough pictures posted on Facebook that I don’t think that there were any shenanigans there. As for hotel added sexy times for us, no we have not done that. I arranged for it once on a date night, but was rebuffed. She insisted on going straight home instead. I never bothered to waste $100 on a vacant Holiday Inn room again.
@Katt - I have tried a chore stoppage. It becomes a battle of wills between (whatever her motivation is) and my standards. I have always broken when everything piles up. We live in semi-rural North Carolina, you can only let the dirty dishes and unswept floor linger for so long before the vermin notice.
@BrianC – While we have never discussed it, I suspect her prime motivator for marriage was for security. She graduated college with a sociology degree, and had no employment prospects. Her options were marry me or move back home with her family, with whom she does not get along. She pressed me for the engagement, I was reluctant but agreed. One of my prime motivators was to finally have sex. Another was fear of loss or fear being alone, before we met, college was one long dry spell / series of rejections / wasted time orbiting a girl. So I was not sanguine about my prospects if we had broken up.
We did not consummate on our wedding night, she passed out drunk on the ride home. As for the pain, I never asked for specifics, but it didn’t seem an unusual comment. Or at least, I didn’t think much of it at the time. As I understand, for women, the first few times can be painful. We tried no more than three times in the month after the wedding, then she said she didn’t want to try anymore for fear of pregnancy.
On your 5th factor and the comment on being demoralized…I assume people don’t sign up for the MMSL boards and run the MAP unless they are fairly frustrated and are also the type who internalizes that frustration to make themselves better. Not seeing progress is demoralizing. As for the not kind to myself, there is a fine line between negative self-talk and trying to honestly acknowledge my role in this so as to get better feedback from the helpful people like yourself.
On your 6th factor, I think that her love language is Quality Time. It’s challenging to find time away from the kids. We try to at least once a month. Every day that I’m home (which is still 320+ days per year), I make a point to carve out time with no electronic distractions to talk and spend some time together. Although I suspect Words of Affirmation may also be an important love language. I say “I love you”, but don’t lay on much romantic talk beyond that. My love language would be Words of Affirmation, not just “I love you”, but acknowledgement of the work that I do for the family and respect for what I have achieved in life. I do not receive this from her.
On your 8th factor, I do not know that she masturbates. I assume that she does, but I have no evidence either way. She owns no sex toys that I know of. The assumption that she does is only based on doubting that manual sex with me 0-2 times per month is satisfying enough.
On your final point, I used to use porn whenever I traveled, but made an effort to stop when I started the MAP. I still do, but not as much, about once every four to six weeks. As for other sexual sources…never go to strip clubs, don’t flirt on online dating websites, no emotional or sexual affairs with other women, just masturbation. Unless there are other sources of which I am indulging, but not aware that they are sexual sources. To that end, not sure how else to answer the “what else is going on?” question.
Tough situation. Before you go Phase 5, please set up a One Hour Call with Athol. He's very good at identifying blockages to attraction,
No matter what happens in this marriage, you're going to need to figure out how to become attractive to women. Whether it's your wife or someone else.
The Secret to Why Your Wife Doesn't Initiate; Top Two Reasons Your Husband Doesn't Want Sex; Dominance-It's Not a Bad Word; Top 10 Ways to Increase Testosterone Naturally
Spring is is coming so I suggest upping your wardrobe for around the house wear.
To get IOI from women you need to be able to approach them with confidence. Nothing wrong with being flirty/funny to the Starbucks barista in front of wife.
Whatever way this turns out you are entering into your prime. Your wife is doing the opposite. I know it's a cruel world but that's one thing our creator has given us men is the 40's are a great time to be a guy.
Lastly, I don't know if you put your wife on a pedestal or think she's your soul mate but take off wife goggles. And stop doing all the chores. Right now it's expected of you. Change that. You work, do chores, fix house, cook. And for what, no sex life.
ETA: If it gets to phase 5 you need to show her a life with you not around. She needs to realize that another woman will get a fit guy who makes good money and is good with kids. Your wife is spoiled. Right now she gets to watch TV while her husband cooks, cleans, does laundry, fixes the house. That is unattractive in her eyes but she does not care. She does not have to do it. And does not have to give you sex. Never reward bad behaviour.
So is the concern that she refused intercourse for years, and only started when we were attempting to conceive? Or is the concern that I passively allowed it to happen? Or both?
It's both.
For her, it means there's a pretty good chance she's got a serious history of sexual trauma that predates you. I.e. childhood sexual abuse and/or rape.
For you, no intercourse for seven years after marriage is quite clearly dysfunctional and you tolerated it. Even "blue pill" guy guys would tend to think the situation was totally unacceptable.
Technically the marriage wasn't commutated for seven years. That's really extreme.
One Hour Call 12-Week Guided MAP
"The turnaround is tremendous. And I'm lifting weights, eating better, and tackling projects. I have all this great energy without a vampire sucking my life force. He's a lot stronger standing on his own two feet, as well." - Scarlet
The heart of marriage is a sexual relationship between two people. Your marriage had no 'heart' for seven years. That's a long time to be celibate and living with someone you're supposedly attracted to.
I'd have been gone after the first year.
"Treating her like a princess didn't make me a prince, it made me a servant."
Link to triage questions: http://marriedmansexlife.com/triage-your-relationship-and-the-911-er-category/
Don't blame yourself for this. We all have issues, you need to work on yours (we all do) but this is on her. You can offer to help (from an Alpha frame), but if she refuses, she has to accept the consequences. You can't go on living in a PiV-less marriage, and won't. You MAP to get the strength to say this with authority.
And don't believe the people who say "you can't MAP medical". You MAP for yourself, and to put yourself in a position to make a condition of remaining married be "we will work on your medical issue together".
Enneagram 5w4. I'm researching what that means, before designing t-shirt art about it.
"I feel no shame in making lavish use of the strongest muscles, namely male ones (but my own strongest muscle is dedicated to the service of men - noblesse oblige). I don't begrudge men one whit of their natural advantages as long as they respect mine. I am not an unhappy pseudomale; I am female and like it that way." RAH
A few have suggested upping your SR even more. I think there's already a significant disparity in SR which could have the opposite effect of what you're looking for. However, in no way should you take that as a suggestion that you should slack off.
AFA the housework, the lousy sex (it never gets better after marriage), TV sloth, I agree that there may be some past abuse but there may very well be some current (and past) depression. You haven't ruled out medical.
Enough talking, Time for action
Fate favors the prepared.
Could she have been sexually abused at some point? The aversion to intercourse is not typical.
As an aside, I edited the title of the title from "Made it Worse" to "Still Stuck".
If nothing else, losing 35 lbs and increasing your income 50% isn't "worse".
One Hour Call 12-Week Guided MAP
"The turnaround is tremendous. And I'm lifting weights, eating better, and tackling projects. I have all this great energy without a vampire sucking my life force. He's a lot stronger standing on his own two feet, as well." - Scarlet
Your wife may agree "because he's obsessed with sex and the therapist will get him to stop." It's far more likely the therapist will explore why she's so reluctant to do any PiV, ever.
It needs to be couple's therapy, because you both have to work together for a solution. A good therapist will help you find a way to involve your wife, if she doesn't want to bother.
Don't try discussing sex on your own, though. That's unlikely to improve anything.
Enneagram 5w4. I'm researching what that means, before designing t-shirt art about it.
"I feel no shame in making lavish use of the strongest muscles, namely male ones (but my own strongest muscle is dedicated to the service of men - noblesse oblige). I don't begrudge men one whit of their natural advantages as long as they respect mine. I am not an unhappy pseudomale; I am female and like it that way." RAH