New Member - Ran MAP for 3 Years, Still Stuck

crescit13crescit13 USAMember Posts: 13
edited February 2015 in Introduce Yourself
Q1 - I am 40, she is 38.  We have been married 15 years, together 19.  We have two children, 5 & 1.5 yrs.  I am 6'2" 205#, she is 5'6" 190#.  As for how hot...I doubt very.  I was not successful with women before we met, and I'm not drawing any outside interest now.  

Q2 - We are not on any medications or have any chronic health issues other than each of us being overweight, her more than me.

Q3 - No structural issues.  We have a 5000 sqft house in a nice college town.  I earn $150k+ per year at a Fortune 50 company.

Q4 - Neglect - I spend about 30 weeknights in hotels a year.  Frequently during the workday I am 2+ hours from home.  I return each night (usually before kids bedtime), but it is stressful for the W because I cannot be responsive to issues that arise (e.g. kid got sick at school).

Q5 - Amateur PI work on computers/phone/credit cards has uncovered no outside sexual sources.  I'm sure she masturbates, but I have never found any evidence of it.  I have never had an affair.

Q6&7 - When did the sex go bad will have a nuanced answer because it was never really good.  Before marriage, it was oral 2-3 times per week, plus another 1-2 HJ.  No intercourse because we were "waiting for marriage" (a prime motivator to get married).  After marriage before kids, still no intercourse for fear of pregnancy and "it hurt".  Oral 0-1 times per week, 1-2 HJ.  Had intercourse when trying conceive, first time was more than 7 years into the marriage.  Usually starfish, but occasionally passionate.  And only when she was ovulating.  After first child, oral never, 1-2 HJ per month.  Never intercourse unless she was ovulating.  This intercourse had degraded from starfish to "you beat off until you're just about to cum, then stick it in there".  Last time we had passionate intercourse was August 2011.  Post child #2, oral & intercourse never, 0-2 HJ per month.       

Q8 - the elephant in the room is probably a) how bad the sex always was as detailed above or b) I am not socially dominant, rather I am socially awkward.  I usually disengage at social events and go off alone.  I have inadvertently offended her friends with what I thought were innocuous comments or observations.  Ex #1: was at a party at her friends house.  I declined the offer of a drink.  Her friend, who drinks a lot, thought I was being judgmental about her drinking.  Ex #2: at a party with kids.  The kids were getting rowdy.  I volunteered to settle the kids.  When I returned to the adults, I relayed that I told the kids they were being dumb, to knock it off and let's compromise on how they will watch the movie.  Her friend criticized my approach, so I told her that she could deal with the kids next time and walked away.  Her friend was DEEPLY OFFENDED by my response.  I recognize that a charming alpha could have delivered the exact same line and been swooned over, but a socially awkward guy like me comes across as a jerk.

Q9 - Honestly, she is the leader.  I try, but it's constant fighting, nagging, shit testing, and it wears me down.  In re: beta around the house, I do 80% of the routine household chores (cooking, dishes, cleaning, laundry, food shopping, etc.) and 100% of the non-routing chores (roofing, yard maintenance, car repair, plumbing, etc.).  She watches 90% of the TV.  Neither of us plays video games.  She does 75% of the kid tasks (carpooling to school, volunteering in classroom, help with homework, etc.).  We split 50/50 the play time / supervision of kids.  I tried pushing her to do more of the chores, but I despaired when I could barely cross the bedroom for all the dirty laundry piled up and had no clean dishes to eat off of, which was just as well because there was no dinner made anyway.

Q10 - at best, when we are really getting along, we have an AAAAAAF relationship.  Well, not all A's.  Even then, I am still resentful of making all the money and still doing all the dishes.  She has expressed that she misses the travel we used to do (3 vacations per year) before we had kids.  We have similar interests and activities that we share.  We also each maintain some separate interests to have our own time - I play soccer and watch a game on TV about every other week, she doesn't care for soccer but often goes out with her GF's to see musicals or high-concept films.

Been running the MAP for three years.  I dropped 35# and probably more than that in fat.  I went from 50# bench press when I started hitting the gym to 245#.  Cardio from "walking" to running 5+ miles twice per week.  Income improved from $100k to over $150k.  Spent some of that extra money on new clothes.  However, sex life and overall sense of relationship satisfaction is lower than before.  She seems less interested in me and now seems constantly disappointed.  Shit tests have increased - clearly, I am not passing them and I've grown exceptionally weary of facing them.   

In August 2014 and three weeks ago, went through the Phase 4 direct statement that the lack of sex was a problem and I was unhappy in the relationship as a result.  I gave her a pass on the August Phase 4 discussion because the baby was less than a year old, so maybe that was an excuse (giving the pass here was probably a mistake).  Heading through Phase 5, though I don't want to, but it happens toward the Phase 6 Ultimatum.  I would rather not get there, so I'm checking here for triage first.  I do wonder, given how atypically tepid the sex life always was, if there is nothing to rekindle.  If the lack of sex from the beginning means that a passionate sexual relationship is not possible here because in retrospect, there never was any attraction.
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Comments

  • SerenitySerenity Senior Moderator** Posts: 11,358
    Hi and welcome.

    Tough situation. Before you go Phase 5, please set up a One Hour Call with Athol. He's very good at identifying blockages to attraction,

    No matter what happens in this marriage, you're going to need to figure out how to become attractive to women. Whether it's your wife or someone else.
    SaigoTakamoriHusband3point0Smashmastershibari
  • crescit13crescit13 USAMember Posts: 13
    What is the specific concern around not having intercourse for the first seven years?  It seemed weird to me at the time, but (blue pill thinking then) what kind of horrible person would I be to force or coerce my wife into sex when she clearly didn't want to have it?

    So is the concern that she refused intercourse for years, and only started when we were attempting to conceive?  Or is the concern that I passively allowed it to happen?  Or both?
  • eightykeightyk USASilver Member Posts: 47
    I can't even wrap my head around no sex for 7 years with my new husband.  It seems like she was (reluctantly) throwing you a HJ bone.  Was there anything for her in that time?  Does she /did she enjoy making out?  Touching?  Or was she never sexually receptive?  Trust me, this is extreme!
    Katt
  • HildaCornersHildaCorners Winter? You call *that* winter?Gold Women Posts: 3,377
    I want to stress that not having PIV sex with one's husband is a medical problem — the medical might be psychological, but it is medical.

    Don't blame yourself for this. We all have issues, you need to work on yours (we all do) but this is on her. You can offer to help (from an Alpha frame), but if she refuses, she has to accept the consequences. You can't go on living in a PiV-less marriage, and won't. You MAP to get the strength to say this with authority.

    And don't believe the people who say "you can't MAP medical". You MAP for yourself, and to put yourself in a position to make a condition of remaining married be "we will work on your medical issue together".

    Enneagram 5w4.  I'm researching what that means, before designing t-shirt art about it.

    "I feel no shame in making lavish use of the strongest muscles, namely male ones (but my own strongest muscle is dedicated to the service of men - noblesse oblige). I don't begrudge men one whit of their natural advantages as long as they respect mine. I am not an unhappy pseudomale; I am female and like it that way." RAH
    BlackwulfSmashmaster
  • never_againnever_again CanadaSilver Member Posts: 1,372

    A few have suggested upping your SR even more.  I think there's already a significant disparity in SR which could have the opposite effect of what you're looking for.  However, in no way should you take that as a suggestion that you should slack off.

    AFA the housework, the lousy sex (it never gets better after marriage), TV sloth, I agree that there may be some past abuse but there may very well be some current (and past) depression.  You haven't ruled out medical.

    The man who gives his woman everything ends up with nothing. Not even the woman.
    AngelineHowlAtTheMoonScarlet
  • crescit13crescit13 USAMember Posts: 13
    Thanks again for all the feedback. The new and neutral perspectives are enlightening. At the beginning of the marriage, the lack of PiV was weird and frustrating. But I thought that periodic HJ and oral was much better than nothing. When we would have "sex" then, I would perform oral on her 80+% of the time. I have tried discussing the lack of sex numerous times. She always shuts down immediately and is uncomfortable talking about it. If I press the issue, she accuses me of being obsessed with sex and says that I need to see a therapist about my unhealthy obsession. (I never have, I disagree with that assessment) She has seen a therapist. Three different ones over six years. For talk therapy. None have diagnosed her as depressed. No meds or any other issues, just talk every other week or so.
  • SaigoTakamoriSaigoTakamori FLSilver Member Posts: 3,075
    edited February 2015
    Get on the phone with Athol.

    Enough talking, Time for action
    Sweat More...bitch less
    Fate favors the prepared.
    Rico
  • KattKatt USASilver Member Posts: 4,554
    edited February 2015
    Edit: was thinking of wrong person!

    Could she have been sexually abused at some point?   The aversion to intercourse is not typical.
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