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My W and I have a 2 year old and another one coming soon. We almost didn't make it. The MAP saved my ass. I was the problem in the relationship so it was a much easier fix than you have in front of you. But it can be done and the MAP works.
I was reading through CM's Triage, and a comment by @Husband2point1 jumped out at me, so I'm going to put his questions in my triage to see if helps shed new light. I'm not sure of the source of H2.1's questions, or what exactly he was driving at because CM dodged the questions, but they struck a note with me so I'm putting them below for comment.
Do you sacrifice your wishes to keep her happy?
A: Yes, little sacrifices every day like getting up early with the kids so she can sleep in to giving up a long shot at a dream career to stay at a dreary job to earn income so she could go to law school.
How often do you mentally censor yourself in order to avoid offending her?
A: Constantly
Are you scared to tell dirty jokes?
A: No, but she chastises me for telling them about half the time. Dirty jokes by others bother her. She has complained that husbands of her friends tell too many dirty jokes and it bothers her.
Are there certain hot topics you avoid because you're afraid to upset her?
A: Yes, there are several topics that I avoid to forestall upsetting her.
Do you avoid initiating sex because you don't want to generate guilt for her?
A: No, I avoid initiating sex because I am tired of being rejected. She has indicated that she feels guilty over constantly rejecting me, but her guilt has never dissuaded me from initiating.
Are there things you do to avoid her moods?
A: Yes. When she has bad moods, my instinct is to take the kids somewhere else (another room in the house, go out somewhere) so that a) the kids aren’t exposed to her moods and b) let her mood improve without the kids bothering her.
Do you rearrange priorities, events, schedules, tasks or otherwise maneuver yourself in ways to avoid conflict with her?
A: Yes, I rearrange work schedules, home errands and drop activities that I want to do to accommodate her work / volunteering schedule. When in conflict, I rearrange my schedule 75-90% of the time. This week I rescheduled a meeting with a senior VP at work to accommodate her schedule. I passed on a midweek sports event that I wanted to attend so as not to have the conflict regarding me wasting a vacation day / money on a selfish activity.
Do you try and insulate her from things you think might cause her discomfort?
A: Yes
What's her plan to resolve this? What's her timeline or schedule to attack this problem?
A: She has made it abundantly clear in our therapy sessions that she feels that I am the only one with problems in the relationship and that I am the one who needs a plan to resolve my issues (e.g. my “obsession with sex” because I want PIV and find getting a HJ twice a month to be unsatisfying).
Is she aware that you will not accept a celibate marriage? Have you made this clear to her? If so, what was her reaction? If not (as I suspect) then why not?
A: I verbally expressed quite clearly that I will not accept a celibate marriage. It led us to marriage counseling and her declaration that I had an unhealthy obsession with sex. But by my actions, I have clearly communicated that I will accept a celibate marriage. Or at least remain in the simulacrum of a marriage so the kids have a stable environment in which to grow up. They’ll only live once, and they deserve better than a smoking crater where their childhood should be.
Immediately.
Virtually every one of my questions you quoted above was a "Are you suffering from Nice Guy syndrome?" test. And, you basically indicated positive for the entire test, based upon your answers.
H2.1, thanks for the recommendation on No More Mr. Nice Guy. Reading through the book, I certainly had a similar background to the “nice guys” he describes. I’ve been taking the work seriously and working with a therapist through some of the issues. I sense that a lot of people going through the book would “yeah yeah yeah” and half-ass the exercises, but I’m taking my time to seriously work through things. And there were some serious childhood / adolescent issues that I had compartmentalized away that I need to work through so that I’m working with an adult skill set with my wife. I think I may have done these books backward – it would have been more productive to do NMMNG and then MMSP rather than the other way around. But one brought me to the other, and hopefully it all works out in the end.
***
Something odd has come up recently. Twice in the past few weeks, my wife has mentioned that a friend has confided that her husband wasn’t having sex with her. That these two women desperately wanted sex, but weren’t getting it. A) it’s odd that my wife would break the confidence that a friend puts in her about anything.
especially about sex what
with all of our issues and how uncomfortable she is about the subject. C) it’s not as if I don’t know the husbands
involved. One of them I socialize with somewhat
frequently. D) I do not know if my wife
confided in them any details about our (lack of) sex life. She didn’t mention that one way or the other.
So what’s the motivation here? Some sort of equalist fantasy that “see this can happen to women too”? A convoluted honeypot since both of these thirsty women are attractive? Trying to assuage my feelings by letting me know that others are going through the same thing? An oblique opening to try to discuss our issues in the context of someone else’s?
I’m curious about this board’s thoughts on this –I realize that it would be pure speculation since you don’t know the parties or the particulars involved – but maybe someone else has had a similar situation and can provide some clarity. Right now, I’m just confused and a little hurt by my wife bringing up other women’s lack of sex issues. BTW, if the answer is “grow up, not everything is about you”, that’s a fair answer that I’ve considered. But I’ve rejected it for now because my wife bringing this particular subject up is very unusual and out of character.
You're right, there are way too many unknowns to predict accurately why your wife brought it up. But the Nice Guy stuff you are working on is important, so glad to hear you're taking it seriously. I would encourage you to spread the range of your Nice Guyness troubles to include people other than your wife. For example, with two, loving, committed parents, children of divorce will have sadness and some challenges, but their childhoods will not be a smoking crater. That kind of bullshit all or nothing thinking keeps you locked in and docile.
Stop being everyone's beast of burden. You won't get an award at the end of your life for having the largest load of sticks on your back.
Remember to play!
Do the right thing, whether anyone is watching or not.
Be married, until you are not.
Email address: angeline.greenwood@att.net
And does your therapist accept this? What did he/she say?
“She was 3/4 perfection and 1/4 broken glass.”
I don't want to be everyone's beast of burden. But the niceguy "I will internalize, I will work harder, I will carry a heavier load" schema has been the only road map that I have ever had. Part of the NMMNG is developing a different road map to get through life. Dr. Glover has used the analogy that you are trying to drive through Chicago with a map of Seattle. Of course you're not getting where you want to go. And you may even know why - because you have the map of the wrong city. But you keep using the Seattle map because it's the only map you have and it feels safer than just wandering around lost.
I know that I need a new road map.
On one hand, that's total bullshit. On the other, this makes sense - a neutral third party who is identified that this won't change, so why waste time and energy on the subject. Just because it's unpleasant and not what I want to hear doesn't mean it's incorrect.
"If it is the position of this therapy practice that a marriage can be built upon one person deciding unilaterally there will no longer be any sex, then it is not a good fit for us. That is not normal, nor is it acceptable."
(Pause for an explanation. Don't fill in the empty space, and turn and hold up a finger for silence if your wife starts up. Make the therapist take a stand on that point.)
"Further discussion about it may not be comfortable, but it will happen. I am however willing to work on other things for a period of ( 2-6? You decide how long you need to show some MAP results) weeks. This means both people, with measurable progress."
Make sure that you don't use up your counseling benefits in an office that does not support a normal marriage. You need to start hammering home that phrase, both with your wife and especially in counseling. If they come back around to the "unproductive" thing, push for the therapist to give an acceptable freqiency of fun, willing sex - not grudging, rude, surly sex - that is a bare minimum for a happy marriage, then point out that you have ZERO normal, fun sexual encounters.
Remember to play!
Do the right thing, whether anyone is watching or not.
Be married, until you are not.
Email address: angeline.greenwood@att.net
@crescit13 did she have a private meeting with the therapist at any point? Could the therapist know something that you don't? Your history together doesn't sound very encouraging for anything to change. And that will get worse if your therapist validates her shutting sex down. Work on other areas? Is there something that the therapist has identified that is more significantly broken and in need of work than intimacy? Is there something else that can be "fixed" that will directly lead to the restoration of intimacy?
Angeline makes a great point...this sort of "therapy" is just not acceptable. Let's not work on the hard stuff. Let's pick something easy that doesn't really make any difference. And let's have lots of meetings so I can pay my mortgage without really doing anyone any good. Meh.
NMMNG is a big step...keep at it!
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep.
You said your wife "feels that I am the only one with problems in the relationship" (and you quoted sex just as an "e.g.", an example).
No marriage therapist should believe or accept a statement that the problem is all with one member of the couple, that the other is perfect. Have I misunderstood what you said?
You could suggest that the therapist start by addressing the fact that it is completely normal for a husband to want more frequent and passionate sexual encounters with his wife than a bi-weekly hand job. Just for a start. Baby steps, you know. Your wife doesn't have to change her feelings re: sex but I think she needs outside input that you are entitled to your own perspective and that it's an entirely healthy one.
Then I'd suggest, since you are paying for their professional help, that the therapist come up with some practical strategies that remain on topic.
In other words: "Yeah... that's really not gonna work for me. Here's why. Do you have any advice other than shifting focus? Or do I need to start looking for a new therapist?"
“She was 3/4 perfection and 1/4 broken glass.”
And the therapist does not accept that I am the only one with problems in the relationship. My wife said that before we started counseling - that was her reason for not wanting to go / blowing off our first appointment.
@John3, I am also pessimistic about the prospects for change. But I feel as if it is important to honestly try.
EITHER she commits to making an honest effort to improve your sex life, which would include both visits to the gynecologist and her GP to rule out physical or hormonal causes for her vaginismus and lack of sex drive and visits both as a couple and individually to one or more dedicated sex therapists, OR the money that would be spent on the above gets spent on divorce lawyers instead.
Actually, visit a lawyer and get the papers drawn up regardless. Even in the absolute best-case scenario in which she chooses Option A and has an immediate breakthrough with a sex therapist that turns things around for you, you need to confront the possibility that it won't work out with her. Your fear of that outcome is sabotaging things just as much as any other factor.
And drop the lame marriage counselor you've been going to. They are a paid professional and you are their customer. If they are refusing to do the job that you are paying for, take your business elsewhere.
In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
You are in Phase One and a major Nice Guy, no where near a point where you can drop ultimatums or even hard demands. Your wife runs the show, and does whatever she wants.
Figure out how to up your SR as quickly as possible. The longer you stay where you are the worse it gets.
FWIW I was also a NG with strong passive aggressive behaviors when I started out. Part of my wife's "issues" were really my own, reflected back on me. My wife was completely un-attracted to me and told me so.
I was an ugly person on the inside. My MAP was all about me fixing me.
Put back on course via a 'One Hour Call' with Athol. Seriously worth 10 times the cost, but don't tell him that....
“Between stimulus and response, there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom.” - Victor Frankl
I think you greatly underestimate your options. Decent shape and make a 150k in NC. You would have very little trouble finding someone. Really how well do you think she would do o her own? Not saying you should file paper work but knowing you hAve options should help your frame.
I was in a similar situation as you and was able to turn things around (painful sex, zero drive, unwilling to seek help). Work on you and remember sex comes last so stop talking and start doing.