Triage Questions and Introduction
I've been poking around the forum for about a week now, and have ordered the MAP book. I am really looking forward to creating an action plan, also to gaining clarity about my marriage and myself and making some forward movement, as I've felt stuck and hopeless about my relationship with my husband for way too long and it is an energy drain. It's a black cloud over my head. Obviously I've been doing many things completely wrong this entire marriage because I don't feel I've gotten what I need. We are in a completely sexless marriage, as in for over 15 months now. I haven't wanted to have sex with him for a LONG time. I WISH I wanted to have sex with him, I want to have a normal relationship with sex as a key component but I am not attracted to him, in fact I cringe when he touches me.
I know that I can't change anyone but myself, and I know that I am to blame for being in this predicament in the first place. I know I should have made changes long ago, but honestly I have tried many things including asking repeatedly to get marriage counseling for the last eight years (which husband will not agree to, too much money and what do they know, says he) and buying books to try to figure this out. John Gottman seems like a nice man but he hasn't helped me either! I have been in this relationship so long it is difficult to see clearly anymore what's a realistic expectation and what isn't. I am willing to do what it takes to find out if my marriage can be saved, or if it can't how to exit it as gracefully as possible. I hope I'm not too late for the former, but if I am I am prepared to deal with it.
#1 - Basic Questions
I am 49 and my husband is 65. We have been married for 25 years and have been together for almost 27 years. When we married, I was 24 and he was 40. We have two children, ages 12 and 15.
I am bad at this "hotness scale" idea, it's not my thing, but here goes:
For my age, I'd guess I'm an 8 or so. I'm hard on myself but I know I must be attractive as I get lots of looks from guys at the gym, even the younger ones. I look at least 10 years younger than I am (I'm always told this). I am 5'3", 115, and work out every day of the week.
My husband looks good for his age, and I'd rate him a 7. He's 5'7" and weighs about 120ish. 125 soaking wet. Has a Mick Jagger-type body, though without the Jagger moves. He's very thin (more so than I'd like) as he has been his whole life, but fit. I always feel "big" next to him though I'm petite and called "tiny" by others. I guess it's relative.
Comments
#2 - Medical
Neither of us is on medications. Overall I'm very healthy. I have some issues with my neck and I go to the chiropractor for this. Just came back from the Gyno with a clean bill of health reproductively, everything is fine otherwise with me. I'm premenopausal, but no obvious symptoms yet aside from irregular periods. Not on birth control pills anymore - I took them for over 20 years and then stopped about five years ago. Don't know if relevant but I was anorexic in college. Had issues with anxiety/depression and was on prozac for 20 years as well, but weaned off it five years ago.
My husband is healthier than most men his age but has some chronic aches and pains about which he refuses to see a doctor. He drinks too much (15-20 oz. wine every night) maybe to self-medicate, or just because he likes the buzz, which he'd never admit to. Low energy and needs a lot of sleep, like 9-10 hours. Has allergies, always coughing and sneezing and clearing throat (again, won't see a doctor). I would guess he's low-T.
#3 - Structural
We have more debt than I'd like and we have to pay for my own health insurance. Our net worth is decent and we have a good portfolio of investments which keeps building. Cash flow is always a problem, mainly because I'm not working right now (by choice). I'm feeling pressured to go back to work for cash, for health insurance and to get my life back. He's retired, collects two modest pensions and has recently started collecting social security payments.
529s and IRAs are being funded.
#4 - Critical Moments of Neglect
This is so long, sorry!
Neither of us has had an affair.
I have asked him whether I 've ever done anything to upset him or not been there for him, and he said no. I can't think of anything I've done to him, either, except not being attracted to him anymore the last 8-10 years of our marriage (the last five have been the worst). He brought up one thing I do which bothers him: I leave wet plastic containers on the counter and he has to wipe up after me. Insert confused emoticon here.
I am still deeply hurt and resentful about many things (could this be why I don't want to have sex with him?!).
Six weeks before my first child was due to be born I had to have an emergency appendectomy due to ruptured appendix; as per the doctors I was literally minutes away from death/septic shock. Thank God my baby was okay, and I survived but I ended up with a huge open wound that took months to heal and we both had to stay in the hospital for 10 days. My husband was still working then, and did not come to see me every day. One night I called him, begging him to please come visit me as I was in pain and lonely and he wouldn't come to see me or the baby. Why? Because he had had a hard day, was tired and he had to clean up after dinner. I still cannot understand this.
Healing from that surgery took a long time and was pretty painful but I was always the one to get up in the middle of the night for feedings.
He quit his well-paying job just before 1st child turned one without talking to me about it first. His plan was to be a freelancer, which paid well but was not guaranteed income. This left us to scramble for health insurance and me needing to go back to work ASAP.
After our second child was born we were having an argument and he blurted out "WHY did we ever have children?!!"
I went back to work part-time one year after baby #1 and 4 weeks after baby #2, then went full-time to be the sole breadwinner after baby #2 turned four years old. Husband worked free-lance, part-time and when I was at work, he was at home with the kids. It killed me to leave my second child when she was so little but I took solace in her being with her father, at least. But I'd come home from work and she'd be crying her eyes out, wanting to be picked up and he'd be doing something else. I asked him why he couldn't just pick her up and console her and he said "I don't have time for that." This was when she was an infant. I still feel kind of sick about it, that I didn't do something right there and then...ugh, there's more on the parenting front but you get the gist. I just don't feel safe or protected by him and from then on felt I didn't fully trust his parenting. I know he loves them, though.
The first 15 years of marriage we both drank socially and pretty much on a nightly basis at home. Nine years ago I decided that drinking was no longer a good idea for me: I felt controlled by it, I wanted it too much, and my mother and grandmother were alcoholics so I didn't want to go down that road. So I quit. He didn't even notice. Three months later I finally told him I'd been three months sober, he said "congratulations" and in the next breath "I'M not going to quit!" There was a complete lack of support and insensitivity from him about this issue.
Seven years ago, I started working full-time again, made amazing money and loved my job. Only thing was it was an 1.5 hour commute EACH WAY - so I proposed that we move closer to the city so I could cut at least a half hour each way off the commute. I felt like I was missing so much of my daughters' childhoods - I just wanted a little more time with them and for myself so I felt like I could breathe once in a while. He said it wouldn't really make a difference (not to him!) and that he didn't want to give up our big yard and move into a smaller house! We looked at houses and he bucked and complained the entire time, it was just exhausting. So five years ago, feeling I couldn't keep up the pace of my life and remain sane and healthy, I proposed we move to a smaller community, far away from Big City and my beloved job, with a lower cost of living with the idea that we could both work part-time. I am the one who ended up working, he never sought out anything substantial.
Throughout our relationship he has rarely given me gifts on Christmas, anniversaries, birthdays and Valentine's Day. If I do get a gift, it's a dinner out - which he also gets to enjoy!
I do 99% of the shoveling because when I ask him to he says "Why? It's going to snow again anyway." To be fair, he does 90% of the laundry.
On our 24th anniversary I asked him if he wanted to do something to acknowledge the occasion and he said "there's nothing to celebrate."
On our 25th anniversary I got a plant.
#5 - Outside sexual sources
I've never had an affair, but I do get crushes on men (celebrities and sometimes men IRL) but it has never led to anything. I do masturbate occasionally and I am definitely attracted to other men, and they to me, though I would never act on it while married.
I am 99.9% sure my husband has never had an affair. I have noticed in the past year that he has been looking at porn online, before that I never noticed. He has been secretive about his computer in the last year since he moved it into his own "office" room (it used to be in our bedroom). He always turns it off when he leaves the house for a few hours. To be fair, I am secretive about my computer, too.
#6 - When did sex go bad?
Athol Kay says "Never let it go on for more than two weeks without getting to the bottom of it" Ha! I fail!
It definitely got worse after birth of first child, but not BAD bad. When I stopped drinking it was pretty awkward as I got used to being sober. Sex has always been decent, but never spectacular - I think I relied on drinking to help me enjoy it. It was about five years ago that I started hating him touching me, and I had my first so-called starfish sex with him. I couldn't pretend to be into it, and I was having an out-of-body experience just wanting it to be over. I can't do that again - it was emotionally painful. If I'm not emotionally there, I can't do it physically. So since that point five years ago we've had sex less than 10 times. Last time I initiated because I felt sorry for him and it was pretty pathetic. He's given up on me now and hasn't initiated in 14 months.
#7 - Sex at the start of the relationship
I initiated after three weeks of dating. It was good and definitely enjoyable, though not spectacular on my end. (Comparing to a previous boyfriend.) Until that point he never tried anything more than kissing. I have the higher sex drive for sure, though we both seem to be moderately low (again, comparing us to other members of this forum). There was no sudden change after we were married.
#8 - Elephant in the room
I think he's an alcoholic.
I feel like I have had to take care of him. I feel stronger than him in many ways, including physically.
I don't respect him as I used to.
He's really passive-aggressive and he hardly ever directly communicates what he wants, i.e. he always asks me if he can do this, that and the other thing instead of just doing it.
I'm really afraid I've wasted the last 10 years of my life because after I quit drinking everything became really clear and I don't think I've honored myself because I fear the unknown.
I'm afraid because now I'm older and don't even know if it is prudent financially to consider divorce at our ages.
I sometimes wish I'd get a terminal illness to get me out of this mess, I mean really, just kill me now kind of thinking.
#9 - Leader
That would be me mostly. All the bigger decisions have been initiated by me (moves, home renovations and additions, children). He even told me I was the boss a few months ago, which is in itself passive aggressive because if it were up to me we would be in MC now, and many details of our entire life would be completely different.
#10 - Good times
You deserve an award if you've read all this, and it may be hard to imagine, but we were really in love in the beginning. Like, over the moon thrilled to be together, as in people on the street would stop us and tell us how happy we looked together. We used to have a lot of fun together, going out to eat, biking, vacationing, going to movies, out with other couples. Now, we take each other for granted, the one thing I always feared would happen. I no longer laugh at his jokes, in fact find most of what he says and does irritating and gross.
What was different then? We were in the Big City, we both had busy full-time jobs we liked and no kids. It was an exciting time. I respected him and he adored me. I was really young, and not really completely formed as a person. There were fewer logistics to navigate.
Help.
It's clear I am the one who has to change, because he actually said about himself, jokingly that maybe he was "content to be a jerk" - A My Friend Vinny reference.
If he thinks he's good as is, and it's working for him, who am I to disagree?
I am looking for guidance about how to change myself so that I feel better with him or eventually without him. Or if I am completely off base in my complaints about our relationship and maybe I'm the ogre here.
If you expect him to improve, I am sure tht he has some gripes as well. I'm not coming down on you, but it takes two to make it work.
Remember, you can't change him. He has to want to do things differently or at leaast want a different result, which only comes about with changed action.
I know I can't change him already. What I'm looking for is a way to feel better without him changing, to get a clear idea of what I need to do next in order to accomplish that. He has never agreed to MC, and I started telling him I thought our relationship was in real trouble eight years ago.
I know I should have voiced my concerns and disturbances right when they happened all along instead of avoiding confrontation and stuffing it all down. It seems like now when I do bring anything up that's bothered me I am blamed for waiting so long.
Maybe it would have been better to have waited to read the MAP book before posting all this...
In a nutshell he's probably happy with the life that he has. He has his wine, and his porn, and a wife that probably cooks, and cleans, and shovels. Why would he mess that up?
Athol has a great blog post about it:
http://marriedmansexlife.com/2012/11/beta-orbiting-wives-laid-maid-and-trayed/
BrianC has some great comments in this thread:
http://marriedmansexlife.vanillaforums.com/discussion/comment/424462/#Comment_424462
But, you're in shape, can work to support yourself, and your children. Awesome.
But you don't have much leverage at the moment because you're not working. You can't really leave, and he knows it.
The MAP is about action, not talk. There aren't any magic words that you can say to him to make him change.
Have you been to Alanon or anything like that with regards to the drinking? Even one meeting would be beneficial to you especially because it's not just your H that is an alcoholic. How bad is it? How does he behave when he's been drinking?
Reading the book will give you a lot of clarity, and help you get a plan into place. Usually you have to take the MAP pretty far to get a guy like that to change. As much as I love the MAP book, the MMSL Primer really delves into a lot of the relationship dynamics, and science behind attraction. If you're a reader it's definitely worth reading.
And to add to the reading list- if he's using a lot of porn you should probably check out:
http://yourbrainonporn.com/
Essentially the plan to stay is the same as the plan to leave. You're building yourself up so you have leverage to effect change, and be able to leave if they don't.
The biggest part of the MAP is figuring out what you ultimately want. Once you have a clear idea of success in mind, then you can pursue it. That may or may not include him.
After you read the MAP book it's probably going to create more questions than it answers initially. It's totally normal. It's a top to bottom whole life system, and it takes more than a hot second to wrap your head around all of it. Take the time that you need to digest everything.
Then you'll probably get pissed because he's the idiot, and you're the one having to do all of the work to get the life that you want. Again, totally normal.
If it becomes unbearable a one-hour call is great for helping you get your head screwed on straight. It's totally worth the money. There's a great team of coaches here, and they can help you get the life you want, or help you figure out what you want.
If you're truly welcoming your own demise you need professional help ASAP. It doesn't matter if he agrees to counseling- you need some to help deal with this.
The lack of sex doesn't seem to be that big of an issue or he'd be the one seeking out this forum, not me. He must be fairly satisfied with his life (and good for him!). I'm over the finger-pointing. He's not perfect, I'm not perfect, but I want to move on with or without him. I can't talk about it anymore. I'm done with that, and now I need to to do something concrete.
Sorry if I was overly dramatic and alarmed anyone, but I'm not truly wishing I were dead, it just feels overwhelming sometimes, you know? I've felt alone in this for so long. That's why I am here for some support from those who have been through this. I am considering the consult with Athol at some point soon after I've read and digested the book/s.
I know I need to get back to work ASAP, and I recognize that I'm resisting that because the financial exit strategy it would provide signals the real possible beginning of the end of this relationship and all extended family relationships we've built over decades and I am truly sad about it. I need to get over this and get on with it. Tempus fugit.
I have read some Alanon literature and it has helped a bit. His drinking isn't "so bad" and nobody else would call it terrible but since I'm sober now it turns me off, I don't like the nightly aspect of it (and told him this many times), I don't like the way he checks out, I don't like the way he's sneaky about it, I don't like what it's done to our marriage and I basically don't take anything he says seriously after he starts drinking because half the time he doesn't remember what he's said the next day. I have actually relapsed several times since I first got sober in 2006 to see if I could recreate the fun we used to have in the early days (alas, that ship had sailed). Or, I could just be an addict using that as an excuse.
Anyway, I like and respect myself sober, so that's established at least.
From the outside looking in, he's just a nice guy enjoying his golden years with a few glasses of wine every night, and I'm the bitch who doesn't want him to have his fun. If he had to choose between me or his nightly wine right now I'm sure he'd choose the wine.
Yeah, I'm pissed alright that it has gotten to this point. Glad to know that's normal.
I don't mind doing the work to get my life the way I want it. I don't need it handed to me on a silver platter, I just need direction and until now all the stuff I read had me going in circles.
Wish I had discovered this stuff 25 years ago!
Welcome.
Do read the books ... and Athols' blog posts.
Your husband sounds like he retired from life years ago ... reminds me of the ex husband of a friend. It's unlikely you can get him to un-retire, but it's definitely worth trying,
The way to do that is run your MAP, put yourself in a position of strength, then go through the Phases in the MAP book. He might wake up, he might not, but in either case, you'll be in an excellent position to move forward with your life.
P.s. Don't believe those people who say a woman is useless after 40.
Enneagram 5w4. I'm researching what that means, before designing t-shirt art about it.
"I feel no shame in making lavish use of the strongest muscles, namely male ones (but my own strongest muscle is dedicated to the service of men - noblesse oblige). I don't begrudge men one whit of their natural advantages as long as they respect mine. I am not an unhappy pseudomale; I am female and like it that way." RAH
The truth is that in order to fix this you have to be willing and able to walk away. It doesn't mean that you have to, but without big risk you won't get the big rewards.
Its good that you're grieving this now.
I've been married 27 years. It's not too late.
From what you have described, your husband is a functional alcoholic. My father was one of those (though he eventually became quite dysfunctional). He's likely arranged his daily life around that. Even the porn, I'd guess: it's easier to get that urge out of the way and get to the booze than to stay sober and be with you. He will not easily come to the realization that he needs to change. Functional alcoholics think everything is spiffy: I get out of bed a go to work, so what's the big deal?
Good luck.
I must get back to a position of strength, for sure, that's my MO right now.
What you need is a plan, which is what the MAP book is. You need to proceed with the idea that this marriage is over and do everything you need to that goes in that direction. As we like to say around here, the Stay Plan is the same as the Go Plan. I think if you put it in your head that it's a Go Plan it will be easier; the goals will be clearer.
Running a MAP takes time; not weeks, but months and years which in your case is probably a plus as it gives your kids time to grow older and closer to being out of the house before the possible nuking of the marriage.
When you referenced the 'terminal illness' thing I knew you weren't thinking suicide. I had similar thoughts about my marriage wishing my sex drive would just go away so I wouldn't be so bothered by it not being satisfied. I truly understand and empathize with that level of frustration.
Read the MAP book and post your MAP. You've already proven you know how to lead and manage for the last 25 years; time to apply those skills to having the life you want. It IS possible. Plenty of us have done it.
"Treating her like a princess didn't make me a prince, it made me a servant."
Link to triage questions: http://marriedmansexlife.com/triage-your-relationship-and-the-911-er-category/
This site has helped me to see my distress has not been unfounded. I am eager to get the book and create a MAP here to hold myself accountable so I move relentlessly forward instead of stagnating any longer.
Thank you @Athol_Kay for creating this safe space for us to work things out.
It hasn't been good for our marriage, though, nor healthy according to generally recognized US guidelines for alcohol consumption. One standard glass of wine is 5 oz so it's more like 3-4 glasses of wine which, for a 125 lb., 65 year old man is stretching the limits.
My belief that is no matter the amount you drink, if it is affecting your life adversely in any way, it's an issue.
YMMV
Look, generally recognized government standards for anything are bullshit done by committee. And usually wrong. (See "food pyramid" - "oh, hey, all the stuff we've told you to eat for the last 40 years is what's made America obese and diabetic. Never mind. Resume eating what you were before we got involved.")
Nobody actually drinks a 5-oz glass of wine. Restaurants that pour a 9-10 oz glass are generally said to be giving a "generous pour", so an average glass is around 7 oz. or so, thus the 2-3 that I said. It's interesting to me that you jumped right on citing government standards and debating whether it was 2-3 glasses or 3-4.Maybe he does really have a problem - it's very hard to tell over the internet. But when one partner quits something, the other partner often feels judged for activities that were perfectly fine before. I've been there, done that, got the divorce certificate to go with it. (Oh, happy day!) Once I got out of that environment, it was great to be with dates who didn't see my normal behavior as a problem.
You've cited a lot of long-ago hurts you've been carrying around like they're very fresh in your memory. Maybe your husband is a real asshole. Or maybe he's just a normal thoughtless guy who has hurt you by being a normal thoughtless guy. When a wife carries a lot of bitterness and hurt around with her over a long period of time, a husband can tend to shut down emotionally as a defense mechanism, then a long downward spiral ensues. Plus, he's quite a bit older than you, plus low energy very possibly might be low T as you point out.
If he's shut down, what have you done to deal with your own hurts and move past them?
I agree with much of what you've said @PhilosophicEntrepren, (especially about the food pyramid - I'm a Gary Taubes and Peter Attia fan) and I'm owning that I've not been able to let go of hurts and resentments (though, they're not "fresh" in my mind, they've just been dredged up for the sake of triage).
I'm not here to change my husband, though he certainly falls into the normal thoughtless guy category. I still love the man, and always will.
I'm here to change me and hopefully help our relationship get back on course. If I've been the "problem" here, I want to fix things.