Looking for my own breakthrough

BetaTesterBetaTester MichiganSilver Member Posts: 404
@generalzod had a great post.  I wish I could have written it.  See:  http://marriedmansexlife.vanillaforums.com/discussion/13245/a-possible-breakthrough#latest

The discussion on the thread was this is great if you have an attracted wife.    I believe I could be tipping my hand too early if this conversation were to occur now.  I had a long history of poor OI, poor attitude, poor health etc.. and my wife has a long memory of it.  My MAP has been running for 4 years.  Those habits are past.

She says she is attracted to me.  But you know what they say and do are two different things.  She shows some game by flashing boobs or even grabbing my crotch.  But when the real opportunity to get naked comes, there is always something else she would rather do.  I get the krabby bitch face and a hard "no".  I am successful maybe twice a month.

At this point if I had the talk and it went badly, I could easily see it morphing into phase 4.  How can you tell if she really is attacted enough to have a phase 3 talk?
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Comments

  • MangueMangue FranceMember Posts: 74
    edited March 2015
    You should give it a try.
  • SignorePillolaRossaSignorePillolaRossa mid atlantic usaSilver Member Posts: 4,079
      How can you tell if she really is attacted enough to have a phase 3 talk?
    just my 2cents ... by asking this question, you indicate that you are not completely operating from your own frame ... we are supposed to MAP on our terms, not hers ... yes, she might not respond and we might need to move forward ... but when we are doing it from our frame, that is an option we are prepared to manage
    Sr. PR

    ============================
    sapere aude

    Fuck Culture. Live your life - Beatrice
    ============================
    BlackwulfAngeline
  • AngelineAngeline planting seedsCategory Moderator** Posts: 14,501
    ^^^ yes, thank you. I was struggling for how to say, it's sometimes the assertive, strong statement of expectations itself that provides the tip over into attraction, because you are stating what you want, and making it clear you won't accept less.
    "Speak your truth." - Scarlet
    Remember to play!
    Do the right thing, whether anyone is watching or not.
    Be married, until you are not.

    Email address: angeline.greenwood@att.net
    SignorePillolaRossa[Deleted User]Katt
  • RorschachRorschach "Just ask the axis ..."Silver Member Posts: 1,458
    Angeline said:
    ^^^ yes, thank you. I was struggling for how to say, it's sometimes the assertive, strong statement of expectations itself that provides the tip over into attraction, because you are stating what you want, and making it clear you won't accept less.
    I had a discussion with Mrs R about "expectations" a few years ago. It occurred in complicated circumstances (roughly put, she was confronting me about my anger and general assholishness, and I told her how I had been living, and basically said I couldn't go on that way any more). I wouldn't advise anyone to do what I did, and I have no idea why it worked. But it did, and things changed, and they have in general stayed changed. But, I think the quoted statement is right. Maybe it worked because I made it clear I really couldn't go on the way it was; I suppose it was a crossroads moment for both of us.
  • BetaTesterBetaTester MichiganSilver Member Posts: 404
    I always had faith this group would help clarify my thouhts.

    @singorepillolarossa - "we are supposed to MAP on our terms, not hers ..."

    @fredless -  "The reality is she may never become attracted to you--running a MAP is no guarantee that your wife will become attracted to you."

    I have always been on my MAP with the goal of saving my marriage then improving it.  For the most part this has occured.   While I am not neccesarily afraid of my wife, I look at it as ruining 4 years of hard work and a devastating loss for my kids if we go to divorce.  But Fredless is right.  She may never be attracted to me and I have to face it.  
  • stillasamountainstillasamountain CT, USASilver Member Posts: 521
    your calling it 'ruining 4 yrs of hard work' is another tell that you arent getting it ... if the 4 yrs made you a better man, they werent wasted ....
    That does sort of jump right out, doesn't it?

    “She was 3/4 perfection and 1/4 broken glass.”

    Angeline
  • BetaTesterBetaTester MichiganSilver Member Posts: 404
    I definately do not believe the last 4 years were wasted.  
    This discussion has brought my hamster out and it needed and bit of group pummeling.

    What I am reading is:  I should not be asking if she is attracted enough to have such a discussion.  I should be asking myself why have I not had this discussion already?  Let the consequences fall where they will.

    Maybe I misunderstood STFU and by not talking about sex or lack of it.  Like I said, I had a pre-MMSL history of poor OI and she has a long memory.  I want to make certian this does not come off as such.  Should I even care tough?
  • KattKatt USASilver Member Posts: 4,554
    The difference between whining and bad OI and a legit statement of expectations is that the former comes from a place of weakness, both personal and within the relationship whereas the latter comes from a place of strength and power. 

    STFU doesn't mean you never express your preferences or expectations.   It means you avoid whining and hashing out things in lieu of action.   It means don't talk about being unhaaapy, do something about it.  It means you can't logic the other person into being attracted, but you CAN make yourself more attractive.
    SignorePillolaRossa318JimmyNow
  • BetaTesterBetaTester MichiganSilver Member Posts: 404
    From the blog I recall this:  http://marriedmansexlife.com/?s=Phase+4

    Maybe I am in phase 3.99.  

    All have provided excellent insight I will be thinking about.
  • BetaTesterBetaTester MichiganSilver Member Posts: 404
    edited May 2015

    Well I had a talk this morning with DW.  Some paraphrasing for brevity.

    She had been complaining of being tired and worn down so I made sure the kids were quiet so she could sleep in.   Around 9:30 I went into the room and laid down on the bed with her.  Not initiating, just wanted to spend some alone time.   No sooner than I rubbed her back a bit she blurts out "I'm not having sex with you".  I said "Good cause I want to talk.   This is a problem for me.  You are my only source of love and affection and every time I try to enjoy some you say no.  I can't even get you to kiss me."  She says "I am just so overwhelmed with life and am tired.  I guess I suck".  I replied "If you are overwhelmed with life then you either need to get better at it or change it.  As for being tired, we have had this discussion.  You told me to exercise and be healthy.  The advice comes right back to you.  In fact it would go a long way in helping you feel better."  She comes back with "The exercise and being healthy was not for sex, it was so you will live longer and be around for me and the kids.   I have always been attracted to you.  Sorry I don't want to rip my panties off for you more often but my hormones are off.   I guess I'm just a broken sucky wife..."   I held frame pretty well and finished with "I do love you and want to work on this problem with you. Together.  So what are you going to do about it?"  I got up brushed my teeth, made coffee, took a shower and got dressed.  I gave her a peck and said I needed to run a few errands.  I was out for about 2 hours.

    She has been in the bathroom crying on and off but has been mostly sulking on the couch with her iPad and watching TV.   She has been dropping comments to the kids about how everyone is needing her and that she is not living up to everyone's expectations.  I expected this butt hurt behavior.   I went about my day ignoring the comments and doing my normal stuff.   I think I did OK but really had to step on the anxiety knot in my stomach.   I am mentally planning my next discussion when we have some more alone time.  More details need to be discussed but since the initial discussion has begun, I think it will come easier.  I am going to give her a few days to digest it all. 

    RebuildingHusbandElise
  • AngelineAngeline planting seedsCategory Moderator** Posts: 14,501
    Sounds like you did a great job of being kind but firm that things can't continue on like they are. 
    "Speak your truth." - Scarlet
    Remember to play!
    Do the right thing, whether anyone is watching or not.
    Be married, until you are not.

    Email address: angeline.greenwood@att.net
    RebuildingHusband
  • Frank_LondonFrank_London in transitSilver Member Posts: 1,853
    edited May 2015
    That, my friend, was a statement of expectations. It was all brilliant, until this bit.

    I am mentally planning my next discussion when we have some more alone time.  More details need to be discussed but since the initial discussion has begun, I think it will come easier.  I am going to give her a few days to digest it all. 

    What else do you need to discuss? You said everything that needs to be said.
    You told her you're not happy and you want her to lift her game. Message delivered.

    If she wants to come back and clarify some points, sure, let her do that.
    If she comes and begs for help, because she can't change on her own, okay, fine.

    But I suspect that your discussions won't be along those lines. It will be about how unfair you are being. It will be all about the reasons she shouldn't have to change.Then you will try to persuade her that you're right, and then the ball is back in her court and you will be the one who is on the defensive.

    Instead, you are in phase 5 and it's time start acting like it. Read up on phase 5 to remind yourself what is involved.
    AngelineRebuildingHusband
  • BetaTesterBetaTester MichiganSilver Member Posts: 404

    The details I want to discuss are a doctor visit for all those hormones, a diet, exercise, better sleep habits, and trimming back on the 127 extracurricular activities for her and the kids.  (The kids are over extended but one thread at a time) She never answered the question "What are you going to do about it?".  Sex comes last and not now.

    Her standard procedure will be to act butt hurt and drop little comments that the kids may pick up on in subtle ways.  Eventually she is hoping things will go back to the way they were.

    AngelineShepardElise
  • BetaTesterBetaTester MichiganSilver Member Posts: 404

    I asked her this morning what her plans were for today.   The kids were doing OK and I thought they would relax a bit with TV.  I said great, I have something to go to but should be home by 1:00.  I called/texted several times and each time she seemed OK.  I ran a bit late but I called and she seemed fine.  When I finally arrived she was in bed and again "overwhelmed" by the children and behaving pissed off with me.  Why?  Because I "stuck her with the kids".  So I took the kids for a few hours and ran some errands.

    While preparing dinner, I tried to have a conversation with her.  I thought I was making some breakthrough but no go.  I emphasized that we (as a couple) should not be afraid to express our desires, needs, and dislikes.  I asked her if there was something I could do to bring her happiness.  She said she was just irritated in general and would not answer the question.  During the discussion I mentioned my opinion for a child care issue and she got pissed off and left the house.  She said she wanted her space alone.  I let her go without a word from me.

    I am not going to push discussion for a few days.  Maybe it was a bit too soon.  Any and all advice much appreciated.

  • Frank_LondonFrank_London in transitSilver Member Posts: 1,853
    There's a whole lot of beta orbiting and nice-guying going on there.

    Seeking permission to leave, multiple check up calls, then trying to overcompensate for her bad mood by taking the kids from her.
    We've been giving that consistent message to you for a while, betatester!
    This is the thing that you need to work on. Stop orbiting.
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