@generalzod had a great post. I wish I could have written it. See:
http://marriedmansexlife.vanillaforums.com/discussion/13245/a-possible-breakthrough#latestThe discussion on the thread was this is great if you have an attracted wife. I believe I could be tipping my hand too early if this conversation were to occur now. I had a long history of poor OI, poor attitude, poor health etc.. and my wife has a long memory of it. My MAP has been running for 4 years. Those habits are past.
She says she is attracted to me. But you know what they say and do are two different things. She shows some game by flashing boobs or even grabbing my crotch. But when the real opportunity to get naked comes, there is always something else she would rather do. I get the krabby bitch face and a hard "no". I am successful maybe twice a month.
At this point if I had the talk and it went badly, I could easily see it morphing into phase 4. How can you tell if she really is attacted enough to have a phase 3 talk?
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Fuck Culture. Live your life - Beatrice
To be honest, when I had the conversation, I thought that there was a better than 50% chance we'd be heading for divorce. I seriously questioned if she had any attraction for me and I could no longer tolerate blow-up doll sex.
And for me, I really wasn't angry at her. Attraction is not a choice so how could I be angry at her if she was not attracted to me.
I was fortunate in that there were other issues at play for my wife including need for control, not actually certain that the changes she had seen in me were real/permanent, and a bit of lazy bear. Phase 4 woke her up and created significant positive momentum in my marriage.
Your question:
At this point if I had the talk and it went badly, I could easily see it morphing into phase 4. How can you tell if she really is attracted enough to have a phase 3 talk?
Given the way you phrase this question, I don't think you are ready to have the discussion. Your view is that she has to be attracted enough to you to have the discussion. The reality is she may never become attracted to you--running a MAP is no guarantee that your wife will become attracted to you. You run a MAP to become awesome. The fact that you believe that you cannot set expectations for your marriage without your wife being "attracted enough" to you indicates that you are clearly in her frame.
Remember to play!
Do the right thing, whether anyone is watching or not.
Be married, until you are not.
Email address: angeline.greenwood@att.net
@singorepillolarossa - "we are supposed to MAP on our terms, not hers ..."
@fredless - "The reality is she may never become attracted to you--running a MAP is no guarantee that your wife will become attracted to you."
I have always been on my MAP with the goal of saving my marriage then improving it. For the most part this has occured. While I am not neccesarily afraid of my wife, I look at it as ruining 4 years of hard work and a devastating loss for my kids if we go to divorce. But Fredless is right. She may never be attracted to me and I have to face it.
i think you need to start letting her know that you arent satisfied and that marriage is a sexual relationship and that you will not be living in a sexless marriage ... are you still too heavy on the relationship comfort and not strong enough on the leadership? do you A&A the bitch face when she shoots you down with an immediate "oooh, never mind - i thought i wanted a hot fuck with my wife, but then i saw that face and you killed my boner - i'll be heading out, don't wait up"
maybe a call with a coach to identify any blockers that have you still in her frame and her not getting the wakeup call yet?
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Fuck Culture. Live your life - Beatrice
“She was 3/4 perfection and 1/4 broken glass.”
This discussion has brought my hamster out and it needed and bit of group pummeling.
What I am reading is: I should not be asking if she is attracted enough to have such a discussion. I should be asking myself why have I not had this discussion already? Let the consequences fall where they will.
Maybe I misunderstood STFU and by not talking about sex or lack of it. Like I said, I had a pre-MMSL history of poor OI and she has a long memory. I want to make certian this does not come off as such. Should I even care tough?
STFU is hugely oversold on the forum. Yes, you should shut up about all the whiny reasons your spouse should have sex with you, treat you better, etc. If there's a "should" anywhere in your thinking, you are not stepping up somewhere. "Should" is a self righteous, arms crossed demand that someone else deliver on something you want. If you want something, YOU must go get it.
Too much STFU has the real chance if delivering a blindside gotcha to your spouse, because you can hide inaction behind "well the forum said to STFU!" Being afraid of your spouse's anger and keeping quiet and tiptoeing around it isn't STFU, it's cowardice dressed in hamster.
Either you aren't tersely, in the moment, right then calling out poor behavior for fear of the Rage Monster (thus ensuring more Rage Monster), or you aren't confidently and with joy and passion going for the sex you want and being unashamed of the sexual person you are, or you are holding onto grudges when your partner makes any tiny changes and not letting them see they've pleased you, or some other version of STFU that is really fear.
STFU means don't be pissy, don't whine, don't beg. Shut the weak, pathetic, groveling parts way the fuck up.
Remember to play!
Do the right thing, whether anyone is watching or not.
Be married, until you are not.
Email address: angeline.greenwood@att.net
STFU doesn't mean you never express your preferences or expectations. It means you avoid whining and hashing out things in lieu of action. It means don't talk about being unhaaapy, do something about it. It means you can't logic the other person into being attracted, but you CAN make yourself more attractive.
as for her long memory - feel free to get to the point, if she ever throws something about your poor OI in your face from 4+ yrs ago "get over yourself, woman - that was more than 4 years ago and hasn't happened since ... things will be a lot better around here when you learn to live in the present" ... if you want to A&A it in a funny way instead, you can affect the voice of a BBC documentary narrator ... "and this concludes this week's installment of mrs beta tester's ancient history lesson. i'm your host, alistair mcbendherover. please join us next week when mrs betatester will remind us of the time she had a screaming orgasm on "ancient history - after dark" ...
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Fuck Culture. Live your life - Beatrice
Maybe I am in phase 3.99.
All have provided excellent insight I will be thinking about.
Well I had a talk this morning with DW. Some paraphrasing for brevity.
She had been complaining of being tired and worn down so I made sure the kids were quiet so she could sleep in. Around 9:30 I went into the room and laid down on the bed with her. Not initiating, just wanted to spend some alone time. No sooner than I rubbed her back a bit she blurts out "I'm not having sex with you". I said "Good cause I want to talk. This is a problem for me. You are my only source of love and affection and every time I try to enjoy some you say no. I can't even get you to kiss me." She says "I am just so overwhelmed with life and am tired. I guess I suck". I replied "If you are overwhelmed with life then you either need to get better at it or change it. As for being tired, we have had this discussion. You told me to exercise and be healthy. The advice comes right back to you. In fact it would go a long way in helping you feel better." She comes back with "The exercise and being healthy was not for sex, it was so you will live longer and be around for me and the kids. I have always been attracted to you. Sorry I don't want to rip my panties off for you more often but my hormones are off. I guess I'm just a broken sucky wife..." I held frame pretty well and finished with "I do love you and want to work on this problem with you. Together. So what are you going to do about it?" I got up brushed my teeth, made coffee, took a shower and got dressed. I gave her a peck and said I needed to run a few errands. I was out for about 2 hours.
She has been in the bathroom crying on and off but has been mostly sulking on the couch with her iPad and watching TV. She has been dropping comments to the kids about how everyone is needing her and that she is not living up to everyone's expectations. I expected this butt hurt behavior. I went about my day ignoring the comments and doing my normal stuff. I think I did OK but really had to step on the anxiety knot in my stomach. I am mentally planning my next discussion when we have some more alone time. More details need to be discussed but since the initial discussion has begun, I think it will come easier. I am going to give her a few days to digest it all.
Remember to play!
Do the right thing, whether anyone is watching or not.
Be married, until you are not.
Email address: angeline.greenwood@att.net
You told her you're not happy and you want her to lift her game. Message delivered.
If she wants to come back and clarify some points, sure, let her do that.
If she comes and begs for help, because she can't change on her own, okay, fine.
But I suspect that your discussions won't be along those lines. It will be about how unfair you are being. It will be all about the reasons she shouldn't have to change.Then you will try to persuade her that you're right, and then the ball is back in her court and you will be the one who is on the defensive.
Instead, you are in phase 5 and it's time start acting like it. Read up on phase 5 to remind yourself what is involved.
The details I want to discuss are a doctor visit for all those hormones, a diet, exercise, better sleep habits, and trimming back on the 127 extracurricular activities for her and the kids. (The kids are over extended but one thread at a time) She never answered the question "What are you going to do about it?". Sex comes last and not now.
Her standard procedure will be to act butt hurt and drop little comments that the kids may pick up on in subtle ways. Eventually she is hoping things will go back to the way they were.
I asked her this morning what her plans were for today. The kids were doing OK and I thought they would relax a bit with TV. I said great, I have something to go to but should be home by 1:00. I called/texted several times and each time she seemed OK. I ran a bit late but I called and she seemed fine. When I finally arrived she was in bed and again "overwhelmed" by the children and behaving pissed off with me. Why? Because I "stuck her with the kids". So I took the kids for a few hours and ran some errands.
While preparing dinner, I tried to have a conversation with her. I thought I was making some breakthrough but no go. I emphasized that we (as a couple) should not be afraid to express our desires, needs, and dislikes. I asked her if there was something I could do to bring her happiness. She said she was just irritated in general and would not answer the question. During the discussion I mentioned my opinion for a child care issue and she got pissed off and left the house. She said she wanted her space alone. I let her go without a word from me.
I am not going to push discussion for a few days. Maybe it was a bit too soon. Any and all advice much appreciated.
This is the thing that you need to work on. Stop orbiting.