Husband turned down sex?!?

RedPillRon

After reading the triage I am not convinced that we are dealing with a Lazy bear husband. Maybe just a betaized one. He seems to be going through the motions of marriage that you both have developed together. It can change but will take time and consistent MAPING. I wonder if Athol's new video series might get the ball rolling in the direction you want and introduce him to the principles visually. You could view the first one together and see where the discussion goes.

NeverSleptOnTheCouch

I concur, after years of sex being difficult, possible shaming upon failed initiations, or afterward, you make have kicked dog syndrome vs lazy bear. Add porn to get by, it lakes more than lacy panties to undo that programming. Right now his brain may yell " its a trap".
Keep mapping, Consider making an environment where its OK to be himself , and its good to be masculine.
If you have a secret script in your head that he must follow, else you will be disappointed, that will reinforce "whatever" attitude.

Rico

Agreed.  I can only speak from personal experience here; my wife made the initiation process thoroughly unpleasant for a very long time.  While our sex life has improved greatly over the past year, any sort of unconscious sigh, look of disgust or boredom, etc. from her today can send me right back to where I was mentally a few years ago when things were at their worst. 

I'm not suggesting that's what you're doing, just keep in mind that it can take a lot of time and positive reinforcement for him to accept the changes are real.

Persephone

 

Scarlet said:

She already posted a triage.  http://marriedmansexlife.vanillaforums.com/discussion/13272/wife-feeling-lost-triage/p1

He IS a lazy bear husband and he does NOT have any push/pull game going.  

(As an aside, this is why it is helpful to just have one thread - the information gets so scattered otherwise and advice goes off the mark.)

Yeah, I just read the triage...

That said, there was one more issue with a later miscarriage. As it started, I had a lot of pain and was scared, so went to the pharmacy to grab some necessities. I came home to find him masturbating to porn.

... not buying the 'emotionally fragile' bit.

Rico

Persephone said:

 

Scarlet said:

She already posted a triage.  http://marriedmansexlife.vanillaforums.com/discussion/13272/wife-feeling-lost-triage/p1

He IS a lazy bear husband and he does NOT have any push/pull game going.  

(As an aside, this is why it is helpful to just have one thread - the information gets so scattered otherwise and advice goes off the mark.)

Yeah, I just read the triage...

That said, there was one more issue with a later miscarriage. As it started, I had a lot of pain and was scared, so went to the pharmacy to grab some necessities. I came home to find him masturbating to porn.

... not buying the 'emotionally fragile' bit.

One does not necessarily relate to the other.  Takes a very strong person to not revert to their worst habits in times of great pain. 

Persephone

 

shibari said: Turning his sexual initiation down because you unilaterally decide that he could not life up to your expectations anyway ... is the equivalent of YOU leading and micromanaging the most intimate part of the marriage.

 

I thought the whole point of the MAP was to "unilaterally" decide what one will or will not tolerate, setting expectations. Is it not her right to turn down the male equivalent of starfish sex?

Scarlet

Exactly.  BOTH women and men need to improve their value and demand better. 

Husband3point0

Persephone said:

 

Scarlet said:

She already posted a triage.  http://marriedmansexlife.vanillaforums.com/discussion/13272/wife-feeling-lost-triage/p1

He IS a lazy bear husband and he does NOT have any push/pull game going.  

(As an aside, this is why it is helpful to just have one thread - the information gets so scattered otherwise and advice goes off the mark.)

Yeah, I just read the triage...

That said, there was one more issue with a later miscarriage. As it started, I had a lot of pain and was scared, so went to the pharmacy to grab some necessities. I came home to find him masturbating to porn.

... not buying the 'emotionally fragile' bit.

Why?  That's exactly how an emotionally fragile man will act -- retreat into the automatic 'yes' of porn women, rather than take the chance of rejection with his wife. 

The single greatest draw of porn is the fact that no woman in those scenarios ever says 'no'. To anything. At any time. For any reason. 

HowlAtTheMoon

I would think the porn and mb in the middle of her miscarriage is more a coping mechanism than having anything to do with rejection. Plenty of people mb to cope with anxiety. 

Husband3point0

HowlAtTheMoon said:

I would think the porn and mb in the middle of her miscarriage is more a coping mechanism than having anything to do with rejection. Plenty of people mb to cope with anxiety. 

I'm not saying this is causal. I'm saying they're positively correlated. 

Emotionally fragile men will masturbate. And, if they have any history with rejection then it's entirely within their modus operandi to use porn as a retreat. It's the 'safest' sexual outlet that exists because they won't get rejected, and they're terrified of rejection due to their emotional fragility. 

If she said she came home and found that he had picked up two women and was banging them at the same time, then I'd be shocked because that's totally the opposite of an emotionally fragile man. But, masturbating to porn? No, I'm not shocked to find there's gambling in that establishment. 

Scarlet

In the bigger picture, it doesn't really matter if he's emotionally fragile or not.

His potential fragility is not.her.problem.  She needs to increase her value and demand better, just like everyone else. 

never_again

I think part of the problem is that he's already been conditioned to believe that he's so far below your value that he can never get laid.  In your triage you put your SR as lower than his now, but as definitely higher at the beginning of the relationship.  He still sees you as the higher SR because wife goggles.  

I (and I'm sure many other men here) have felt the pain of the "I want a massage but you're not getting sex" rejection (aka "Fulfill my needs but I don't give a crap about yours").  That's what rejection will do - destroy his self-esteem around sexuality and, in particular, destroy his trust in his wife's intentions around sexuality.

OTOH, there's been plenty of talk on the forum about "soft initiations" by women, that most don't overtly initiate.  And asking for a massage is seen by most men as a soft initiation.  Until you get rejected Every. Time.  Then it's a "wtf am I getting out of this?".

With my second wife, every time I laid beside her I became rock hard - clothed or not. After she went on a scorched-earth rejection campaign (including the "I want a massage" serial rejections) my subconscious brain eventually convinced my little brain - "Don't bother.  Nothing is going to happen anyway."  

5 years since I left her and I cannot get an erection with a woman until we're naked, in bed and well along in the process.  Only then is my subconcious brain confident enough to tell the little guy "OK, I think it's safe to launch."

amblrgirl

A lot of the guys here think hubby may just be a little gun shy after the earlier rejections, and I think that is definitely a possibility. And my request to up the intensity in our last encounter may have just made it all more intimidating.

I recognize it's unfair to expect him to jump onboard after years of being refused just because he's a guy. At the same time, I feel annoyed at the thought of having to lead him step by step through this process, because I'm tired of being the Captain. So, a bit of a catch 22 there. I know it's not very nice or understanding, but I really want him to captain up NOW. Like @Scarlet said, his potential emotional fragility is not my problem. That's how I feel, but I also love him and want him to be happy. So I can work on being encouraging and a bit more patient with him (patience has never been my strong suit).

That said, he did rectify the situation today. He came home from his haircut and I was still getting ready and in a similar state to the (non)encounter from my op - lacy undies and a matching tank top instead of t-shirt. Guess he liked the tank top better because he made a strong initiation. I loved it and we had a lot fun! Yay!  


Also, as several people mentioned, I will absolutely keep MAPping. I understand I've really only been at this about 3 weeks now, and as much as I want an overnight (all night long?) turnaround, I'm trying to remember that it takes a little time to reverse years of missing the mark. Thanks so much for all the insight and advice! Lots of smart people on here!  

Husband3point0

amblrgirl said:

That said, he did rectify the situation today. He came home from his haircut and I was still getting ready and in a similar state to the (non)encounter from my op - lacy undies and a matching tank top instead of t-shirt. Guess he liked the tank top better because he made a strong initiation. I loved it and we had a lot fun! Yay!  

Congrats. One quick question though -- do you have any conversations with him about how much you desired him, wanted him, were going to make more of a effort to accept his initiations, about his initiations (hard vs. soft), etc.? Because if you're looking for why a 'dejected bear' turned into an 'initiating bear', that's where I'd look first. Whatever that encouragement was, jack that knob to 11 imho. 

amblrgirl

I did talk to him about feeling like I am more open to sex than I have been in the past and I specifically requested that he be more dominant in the bedroom. I told him that I needed him to be the bad boy and that if he pushed me a little, he might be surprised at the things I'd say yes to. I think he got the message because we had another great bedroom session last night. 

I do think the ideas behind soft vs hard initiations and drive-by's would be beneficial for him. I've told him about the Primer and the videos, but I don't want to nag, so I'm not sure if he's actually checked out any of it yet. 

He's leaving for a business trip in the morning and when he gets back, we're going to have house guests for the weekend. I'm a little nervous that the sex won't pick up again after a break like that. I think my drive can sort of plunge if I go a few days without any stimulation. I told hubby that (and that I didn't want to lose the drive), so hopefully he will take the initiative to keep things on track.

amblrgirl

James78 said:

I have a quick question that might apply to this thread..... I have always believed that you have one primary job as a man that if you don't get anything else right....you should at least get this....and that's anytime she shows that she is overtly willing to have sex you deliver and have sex with her if you want the relationship to last.....is this basically correct? 

James78 said:

Oh and you should always error on the side of assuming she wants you until she says no or makes it obvious she doesn't? 

That would certainly be my preference, but I'm still pretty new to all this. I think there are some situations where a husband might walk away from sex - i.e. bargaining or chore play

Husband3point0

amblrgirl said:

I did talk to him about feeling like I am more open to sex than I have been in the past and I specifically requested that he be more dominant in the bedroom. I told him that I needed him to be the bad boy and that if he pushed me a little, he might be surprised at the things I'd say yes to. I think he got the message because we had another great bedroom session last night. 

I do think the ideas behind soft vs hard initiations and drive-by's would be beneficial for him. I've told him about the Primer and the videos, but I don't want to nag, so I'm not sure if he's actually checked out any of it yet. 

He's leaving for a business trip in the morning and when he gets back, we're going to have house guests for the weekend. I'm a little nervous that the sex won't pick up again after a break like that. I think my drive can sort of plunge if I go a few days without any stimulation. I told hubby that (and that I didn't want to lose the drive), so hopefully he will take the initiative to keep things on track.

You don't want or need to take the reigns forever. But, there's no reason you can't keep pushing him a little. 

You our can send him an excerpt from your favorite romance/erotic novel. 

50 Shades will be released on DVD in a few weeks. 

You can watch some tv shows that turn you on, like Outlander or whatever. 

There's nothing that prohibits you from dropping enough breadcrumbs in front of him that illustrate where you want him to start leading. Then, just be receptive, appreciative and open to where he leads you from there. 

Madrax573

I'm new here but I have recently realised that I pretty much gave up trying to initiate with my wife after years of being rejected constantly.

I'm starting to get my alpha game back on but I still find it difficult to take the rejections. And if my wife suddenly flips on me and say 'go get em big boy' type of thing then I can't just get up an go anymore.

For example last weekend I was doing good drive by's most of the day and getting decent reactions to them. Come the evening after the girls were sent to bed I stepped it up a bit and started initiating. I got the standard 'the girls are still awake' push back so I pushed through and she gave me the hard No. So I stopped and chilled out the watch the program I was wanting to watch anyways.
Then about an hour later she wanders off, checks on the girls then goes to our bedroom. Then she come back to the bedroom door and gives me the come here finger. I wasn't ready for any action that night and couldn't get in the mood.

Reading your triage I see a lot of what happened in my marriage there and he is probably really gun shy. 

A lot of the stuff I'm working on myself is being OI so when/if I get rejected I just go do something else awesome instead. Sounds like this might be some thing for you to look into as you can't make him change NOW like you would want so just be your awesome self!

amblrgirl

A little annoyed with hubby at the moment. He left town for a business trip Monday morning. Before he left, we had several good bedroom sessions last week. I also talked to him about responsive desire and said I didn't want to lose the momentum with him being out of town and then having house guests arriving the day after he returns.  He said he would send me some dirty texts, which sounded great. Except, he hasn't done that.

The only text he sent me was "Made it back to the hotel safely." And then a quick conversation I initiated today day about how it doesn't look like our taxes have been submitted yet (not in a grumpy way, just in a "should I call the tax guy to make sure he's taking care of it" way). He has called to say goodnight to the kids and talked to me once briefly while he was walking to a restaurant for lunch. But no attempts to express desire for me or to prompt my desire for him. 

I don't get it. We SPECIFICALLY discussed this before he left. I had planned to wear something special for him when he gets home (late tomorrow night), but I'm just aggravated now and have no desire to do anything for/with him. Grrr...

I'm also pretty sure he hasn't checked out the Primer or the videos, though he said he would when we talked last week.

Angeline

Put yourself in his shoes, put on the spot and expected to make sexy texts and phone calls when you guys haven't done that sort of thing for a long time, if ever. It's not easy to manufacture out of thin air. Was he ever good at this sort of thing? What are you contributing to the energy there? Are you leaning in, cheerful and teasing and making it fun? Or leaning back on your heels with arms crossed, waiting for a mistake?

You aren't going to be able to charge out of the gate and never have a hiccup. There will be ups and downs, fits and starts. 

Once you demand change, you have to get out of the way and allow change to happen.