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Men... what signals have worked to get your attention to problems...
TheatreMommy
CanadaSilver Member Posts: 959
And does it always have to come back to withholding sex?
I'm sadly a bid dissociated, and can be angry and still smile and make food...
I am looking for concrete consequences that are not BIG (i.e., an ultimatum is big; ILYBIANILWY talk is big)...
Not folding his laundry is small, but he doesn't notice it...
I need something in the middle.
I'm sadly a bid dissociated, and can be angry and still smile and make food...
I am looking for concrete consequences that are not BIG (i.e., an ultimatum is big; ILYBIANILWY talk is big)...
Not folding his laundry is small, but he doesn't notice it...
I need something in the middle.
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How will you live well today?
when she comes right out and says, in a respectful tone of voice, what she wants/needs/dislikes/etc, i listen attentively and seek to clarify any misunderstanding that i might have, then work together to implement the plan to address her point .. she has cut the shit out tremendously since she learned to trust that i was gonna handle her points quickly and respectfully and completely
withholding sex is the least effective of her 'signals' and she knows it - i think learning the concept and practice of OI has been the single most effective change in my life from the MMSLP ... learning about frame was a close second ... i use to try to mind-read and beta my way into her resuming sex - those days are 2+ years long gone now
its really remarkable how much better life is now that our marriage relies on my frame instead of me trying to contort to fit /comport with hers ... we rarely have even 'testy' moments any more, let alone arguments/fights/etc ...
its a metric fuckload more work for me to always have to be fucking captain, but the ship sails smooth even through choppy seas
============================
Fuck Culture. Live your life - Beatrice
"Honey, we have a problem, and I need your help. I can't do this without you."
There is no lilt to the voice, no hints of anger or frustration or anything other than a direct appeal. That's what gets my attention.
^^^This is the part where @TheatreMommy gets stuck.
Her husband has demonstrated consistently over a long period of time that he is not to be trusted to handle her points quickly, respectfully, and completely.
Nevertheless, TM, you need to learn to behave as though your H will act correctly. When he does not (as surely he will not) you should behave as if you are genuinely surprised. "Interesting. I brought a legitimate issue to you and you brush it aside/minimize it/downplay my concerns. I suppose I will have to get my issue resolved some other way." Don't scream and yell or have yet another discussion. Just handle your business and move on as though you can't rely on him. Because you can't.
It is totally OK to feel upset, hurt, angry, pissed, frustrated. You just can't act out those feelings in the presence of your husband. You have to portray to him that you've got it together. Save the crying and explaining and volcano of feelings for your pshrink. And for us here on this forum.
If your husband neglects you, gaslights you, over drinks and oversleeps, acts like a child, it is completely ok for you to not feel sexy toward him. If he gives you grief about it, say, "it is difficult to feel sexual toward a man who neglects his family responsibilities." That's the truth, right? Just say it and let it go. No need for a lengthy discussion.
One Hour Call 12-Week Guided MAP
"The turnaround is tremendous. And I'm lifting weights, eating better, and tackling projects. I have all this great energy without a vampire sucking my life force.
He's a lot stronger standing on his own two feet, as well." - Scarlet
Remember to play!
Do the right thing, whether anyone is watching or not.
Be married, until you are not.
Email address: angeline.greenwood@att.net
WRT a pull-back from chores as a signal (@RebuildingHusband), I may be making excuses, but I find this difficult. As mentioned by others, he has a lower threshold for noticing things than I do, so it is more of punishing me than punishing him.
The cutting off sex gets his attention, but we have had conversations to that effect (led by Athol in coaching) re consent and such. We periodically make better headway into only having sex while green, but... my body can be "green" but not green for him... the best I do these days is yellow. And he equates sex with love/affection/touching... it's a whole conversation and we've had it. And I've taken that off the table out of respect for the fact that, despite me not feeling he's trying much or progressing much, he is trying some and he is progressing some...
I have been told that I am passive aggressive (not by him). But, my therapist calls it something else. (Abused personality). In fact, it is my go-to position to say it clearly (X bothers me), and then go on about my stuff as if (a) he heard, (b) he took it on board, and (c) things will get better. But, I don't think he hears, takes things on board, or works to making things better unless I have the MASSIVE reaction. And it takes me a lot to get there.
I can smile and joke and be cuddly and also be upset and trying to find ways to have him understand X, Y and Z. I think a lot of the confusion is my fault... hence the search for clear intermediate signals...
@JellyBean says it loudly. My problem is that I don't do that next step... the "oh, I thought we were clear on this"... Or, if I do, it doesn't actually matter.
So, re @Athol_Kay ... the H either agrees, goes along with it, and then never follows through (aka, I'll agree so that this conversation stops) or he fights it... you know. Last night, he was grumpy and starting to feel sick. He'd taken night off ostensibly to spend time with me, but more realistically because he didn't want to go to work feeling sick and prickly. He was worried about money. He was talking about going through stuff and selling it to make a bit through this hard time. He started listing things. I interrupted when he got to a video camera we were given or he bought... I suggested that, though going through and figuring out what could sell for money is a good thought, perhaps we shouldn't sell anything that we'd later want to buy again. He got defensive. Since when have we used the video camera, he asked. I suggested that we've not thought to use it, but we have occasions. That we may want to keep it, and that we likely couldn't get back what we paid for it, so that selling it and then wanting to buy it again in the future might not be our best option. I then added that I would also want say before he sold anything of mine, since he listed some zumba dvds he'd bought for me.
K, I've not used them yet. I do the morning routine with the kids, leave the house on by 7:30am, and I'm getting home around 8pm. I'm not exercising at home during the week (but I have a gym at work). And on the weekend? I'm watching the kids, cleaning the house, and taking care of the property. I quite literally don't have time to do work, home chores, farm chores, social care (I have an elderly gramma, a near retirement mom, and two kids all on this property) and self care (i.e., sleep and showering at this point), and exercise those zumba dvds. Yes we could sell them. He has a point. I don't use them.
But he bought them and gave them to me. He hurt my feelings taking them back to sell.
So, I say, please go ahead and make the list but I'd like say in whether or not we sell my things, like the dvds. He then gets defensive, and he tells me I never use them. I say let's not talk about it now when he's sick and prickly. Let's deal with it when he's not physically low.
There.
That's how I let him know he hurt my feelings. I didn't say, you hurt my feelings. I said, I want input with my own things. He got defensive. I ended conversation.
He gets defensive.
Oh, and he gets sick. For the past year or more, every fight of consequence has ended with him needing to go to the hospital, or having to take time off work... I get BIG upset and he gets breathing problems or has a break down.
So, I won't do big anymore until it is THE BIG one.
How do I push past defensiveness? How do I get buy in to change?
He is so good in his heart, and really a kind person (or else I wouldn't have stayed)... but there is this history of suck right now, and I want to try this one last attack... the one where I use signals to get his attention where words are failing.
Moreover, what should my demeanour be? Because I don't get angry easily (and as you just heard, that ends up with sick days and hospital visits), so I need to develop a toolbox of alternative, less drastic but clear and easy to understand options... that don't involve withholding sex.
Who's with me!
>.<
It's kinda hard to want to fuck your husband if he plays the sick card any time you call him on his shit.
The next action to do is to stop allowing him to use the sick card to get out of things. He's just using a victim strategy.
One Hour Call 12-Week Guided MAP
"The turnaround is tremendous. And I'm lifting weights, eating better, and tackling projects. I have all this great energy without a vampire sucking my life force.
He's a lot stronger standing on his own two feet, as well." - Scarlet
Especially when you say that you are "yellow at best" - which sounds to me as if it needed a bit of rationalization to even call your state yellow.
"The cutting off sex gets his attention, but we have had conversations to that effect (led by Athol in coaching) re consent and such. We periodically make better headway into only having sex while green, but... my body can be "green" but not green for him... the best I do these days is yellow. And he equates sex with love/affection/touching... it's a whole conversation and we've had it. And I've taken that off the table out of respect for the fact that, despite me not feeling he's trying much or progressing much, he is trying some and he is progressing some... "
Could you clarify what was advised in coaching re cutting off sex? I'm all for rewarding steps into the right direction - even baby steps, but keep in mind that you could be rewarding just the absolute minimum of efforts, or even not putting in real effort at all by providing sex on tap.
If you want us to be unapologetically feminine, be unapologetically masculine.
@TheatreMommy I don't have any answers, but I do have a couple of thoughts for you.
Being the captain of a family in money trouble sucks. Selling stuff sucks. It's a huge "in your face" of your own failures (whatever they may be). Having drug your wife/family into this situation is even worse. Coping badly with it sucks. The fact that it drags on and on and on sucks. It's a situation that doesn't resolve itself quickly or easily. It leads to fantasy solutions (ie lottery), avoidance, victim behavior, self indulgence, and all sorts of not helpful stuff. It can lead to feeling desperate. When he sees your attraction fall apart, he will associate it with the money problems. Add a pinch of hopelessness. That's what goes through guys heads. We don't separate our value as a married partner from our role as provider very well. When the providing thing falls apart, the rest tends to go with it. I would guess that's part of why he doesn't listen to, take to heart, and make the changes you are asking for. It still doesn't fix the money problem (money is the root of all problems). So why bother?
If you can make the distinction for him/with him about your marriage (which will survive anything, so long as you take care of each other's emotional and physical needs)...and the temporary financial situation...you might get a better audience. Keep them separate. It sounds like both of you are mixing things up (the DVD's were valuable to you because they were gifts that symbolize his love for you...and a few $'s to the family for him).
Have you tried writing him a letter? It seems hokey, but it can make it easier for you to carefully phrase your thoughts, state your feelings, and ask for what you need. Doing so in a positive manner (so you don't trigger victim mode) may get your message heard. Avoid the passive aggressive stuff, as it will tend to mix finances and marriage in ways that won't have positive impact.
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep.
its totally legit that the list of 'for sale' items has to be decided upon mutually - but if cash is so tight that the proceeds are really vital, you both need to be willing to suffer equally so as to make it a bond you both go through equally instead of making one of you shoulder the greater burden
============================
Fuck Culture. Live your life - Beatrice
You know how women can say their hub needs to love them no matter what... despite being 500 lbs and having a beard... to which this site replies, okay love, but not want to fuck.
Well, I hear that same need to be loved when he is saying this to me. And could I ask him to respect my needs were I to ignore this need? I don't know...
To be fair, the failure at him respecting my boundaries are likely my own fault for not pushing him to respect them. How can anyone respect someone who isn't respecting themself..
But I don't believe our marriage can withstand anything and everything... the one thing it won't survive is him not trying. But I can try to spin that... be encouraging.
I also don't believe selling our stuff is the answer if we don't change the root cause. It will just leave us with a little less debt and a lot fewer resources. What I would really like from him would be the effort to understand the finances and restraint in spending.
This brings up a theme... I love the H... but...
He doesn't do preventative maintenance... on the home, on the cars, on the property, on the marriage... so cars have their timing belts go ceasing engines and cost 2k... furnace goes... lawn grows... birds get into the attic... bugs crawl everywhere... and I grow apart from him.
The big things (car dying on highway, furnace quitting, relationship ultimatums) get attention.
I am really hoping to find a way to get THAT kind of a guy to pay attention before the big thing.
The letter might work. I have to think of this again.
Also, much easier for him to make $300 by taking an overtime shift than by selling a DVD set... (maybe we bought it for $100, but we're getting $40 for it, best case here). Why isn't he signing up for OT? Why isn't he looking for the job to help with money? I'm working full time, doing work that is extra and paid through the union, and taking side contracts for the money...
We need to cut frivolous spending, respect our budgets, work harder... selling stuff... I've sold half of my gold jewelry when we needed it last time, and trust me, you get nada compared to what their emotional value is. A little work, self deprivation, we'd get through this. Selling things is a bandaid solution, a quick fix, and he isn't looking at it realistically... (he bought a bunch of exercise equipment for himself that he didn't touch, so it may be a bit of defelction).
I would rather he set the equipment up in some corner or in the spare room and punch it than sell it. Get that anger and angst out. Get some positive energy. Get energy at all.
I wish I could give that to him. Give him the out of whatever he's going through... but I can't fix that for him. That's got to be him... and selling stuff that symbolized his acceptance of the need to work on SR isn't the answer.
My H was a low-t, porn addicted, lazy bear. He has just kind of floated through life throughout most of our marriage. I definitely had things I wanted, and I worked my ass off to get them. Occasionally I'd come home from work early to find him still in bed at 11:00 am, or noon- masturbating to porn. He always had a job, but nothing great. He never really fixed anything, did basic maintenance, or even mowed the lawn despite being very intelligent, and highly capable. My kitchen sink didn't work right for almost a year.
I picked up the slack. Gradually at first, and then more and more over time. I did what I could, and hired guys to do the rest. I started side businesses, and paid them with the extra money that I earned.
It definitely enabled more of his lazy bear BS.
We had DS 3 years ago, and it got really really bad for a while. Really, and truly abysmal. I found the MMSL forum, and started a MAP hoping that he'd come around.
We got T treatments, and I gave him a copy of the primer. He put in the bare minimum of effort, and little things got better, but there weren't many strides.
I came to the conclusion that I couldn't fix him. He's a grown-ass man, and he should be able to handle his own shit. At the same time I decided that if I couldn't fix him the least I could do was make sure DS didn't suffer needlessly.
So, I fixed all of the stuff around the marriage. I picked up more slack. There was less time and energy for him. Too bad. He knew that he needed to step up, and there were natural consequences for some of his behaviors. They didn't phase him much though.
I did small rebellions. I really needed him to be home by 6:30 (mainly because it meant that he had to go to work at a reasonable hour, and not jerk off to porn), and I needed him to do the dishes. If he wasn't home I'd take DS and go out to dinner. If he didn't do the dishes I didn't cook. I stopped making his life easy because I just didn't have enough hours in the day to coddle him, and take care of the stuff that I really needed to take care of because he wouldn't.
I woke up one day, and realized that I didn't need him in my life. He literally brought nothing to the table. I had compensated so much for so long that our family life wouldn't change much if he was out of the picture.
I went to phase 5. It may have been a little premature, but I was just fucking done, and I couldn't do much else without getting his buy-in, or a divorce.
Seeing the separation paperwork FINALLY got his attention. Really painting the vivid picture of what life would be like without DS got him off his ass.
If I were you I'd fix the budget fast. He can't get a credit card in his name. He's proven, and it's been independently verified that he's BAD with money. You've been the one hustling, and working to keep a roof over your head. Your babies need you at home, and engaged on the weekends instead of trying to hustle for more money.
Draw the boundary. The family will no longer suffer because he's bad with money. We will not part with our possessions to keep a roof over our heads. You both work full time. There should be absolutely no reason for you to sell things to keep afloat.
He can't be trusted with a major credit card he for damn sure shouldn't have access to the joint account if he's been overspending. He should get a cash envelope for his spending money- as little as possible.
Draw your boundaries, and set your goals. Don't let him sink the family. Actions, not words.
You've been through hell. It's time to put on your own oxygen mask before you offer him anymore help.
Your Mom feeds your kids, but he has the money to get drunk???? That's fucked up.
He wants to sell your Zumba DVD's to get $40, but how much did he spend at the liquor store this month? That's some pretty hardcore addict behavior.
I hope you find your Mamma Bear, and put your foot down on the drinking.