Sometimes I am unhappy and others I feel like I am reaching the end of my marriage

SteveNV

**I apologize but I was locked out of my account due to a technical issue and am reposting this so I can respond to questions**

I have been a long time lurker and am finally posting about my problem to get insight from the group.

 

I have been married for about 4 years and to say it has been a challenge in an understatement. Sometimes I am barely able to tolerate my situation, other times I am full of anger and want to withdrawal from my wife. I don’t know if my situation is salvageable, or if it is time to start looking forward. I will try to outline my situation as concisely as possible.

 

When I met my wife I was immediately attracted to her. I was doing well with the ladies but she was different. After about a month of dating, we were exclusive. Things went very well and we were engaged within about 8 months, then married about 8 months before that. About 3 months after being married, she no longer wanted sex and quit touching and kissing me (all she could manage would be very quick peck kisses). We went about 1 ½ years before being intimate and after that, it was very infrequent duty sex. I was so desperate for affection and physical intimacy that I would take what I could get. Most of the time I felt more alone and depressed afterwards. We would go through cycles where we would be intimate once every week or two but there was just no longer a connection (we haven’t been intimate for about 6 weeks). We would also go a few months here and there without anything. We would have arguments and have been to a few marriage counselors but she says there is no problem (so nothing has worked). I have ordered the Primer and am hoping to implement it and see if I can improve my situation.

 

Question One – Basic Questions

I am 38 and my wife is 37. We were together about 1 ½ years before getting married in 2011 How old are you and your spouse? We have a 2 year old and a 6 month old baby (she is still breastfeeding and does not get much sleep). My wife is pretty attractive. She is biracial and exotic-looking, 5’3” and weighs about 115lbs. After recently having a baby, I would say she is a 7, an easy 8 after she recovers. I am about 5’10” and weigh around 195 lbs. I gained some weight after getting married and have lost about 20 lbs. I want to lose about another 15 lbs, but have been working out and have good muscle. I would say that I am also a 7, but can get to an 8 once I am ripped.

 

Question Two – Rule Out Medical

This one is tricky. Overall I would say we are both healthy but there are a few relevant details here. Toward the beginning of the relationship I started experiencing some ED, which my wife has admitted that this had an impact on her attraction and sex drive. After not knowing what was wrong, I was tested and it turned out that my testosterone was very low (concussions from martial arts was the theory on the cause). I started taking testosterone and it resolved my ED issues and I started losing fat, gaining back muscle, and my energy improved.

For my wife, she was a few weeks pregnant when we got married, and miscarried when we returned from our honeymoon. She blames her lack of sex drive on the miscarriage. I strongly disagree on this, however. We weren’t intimate for a few weeks after the miscarriage but after that, she was totally fine on the intimacy front until she became pregnant with our first child. Then she declared that she no longer wanted to have sex because she thought it could lead to a miscarriage. She called off sex and I wanted to be supportive, so I let it go. But once she said no sex, she also quit touching and kissing be. If I tried to kiss her, she would not respond and basically lay there frozen. Eventually I quit trying because of the rejection and 18 months had went by. Even though intimacy was inconsistent, we eventually became pregnant with our second. She recently had an IUD inserted for birth control and then declared that she could not have sex for a minimum of 3 months (this was made up by her, not the doctor. The doctor said waiting a few days was fine).  

 

Question Three – Rule Out Structural Attraction Issues

We have a lot of debt and salaries are not great at the moment. I know this is a big deal for her. I would guess that we are about -25k when taking into account our townhouse being underwater and credit card debt. We also pay a lot for daycare so there is not much disposable income right now.

Physically, I am a little older, but so is she. I am probably about the same weight as I was when we first met.

Question Four – Rule Out Critical Moments and Neglect

I really wouldn’t say there has been anything big in terms of neglect. When she shuts down the intimacy, I do not react well emotionally. I would not classify my behavior as neglect but I think it is noteworthy. I start to feel unloved and undesired. She is completely happy and I feel like my marriage is dying.

 

Question Five – Rule Out Outside Sexual Sources

I do not believe there are any outside sources. At one of my low points, I did consider this and looked into it and ruled it out. Unfortunately I did learn a few things about her past that I wish I never knew. First, she was married before and a few months into her first marriage, she totally shut down on her husband. She eventually moved out as a part of a trial separation and ended up sleeping with another guy, which ended the marriage officially. This caused some tension with her family and she hid the details from me (she still doesn’t know I am aware of what happened, she would be livid at me for getting this information from somebody). So when I was trying to get her into counseling to work on the intimacy issues, I knew she had the same exact problem in her first marriage, but was unable to say what I knew. She is in complete denial that we have any issue at all.

 

Question Six – When Did the Sex Go Bad?

She became pregnant 3 months into the marriage and then it flipped off like a switch.

Steve_NV

I have been a long time lurker and am finally posting about my problem to get insight from the group.

I have been married for about 4 years and to say it has been a challenge in an understatement. Sometimes I am barely able to tolerate my situation, other times I am full of anger and want to withdrawal from my wife. I don’t know if my situation is salvageable, or if it is time to start looking forward. I will try to outline my situation as concisely as possible.

When I met my wife I was immediately attracted to her. I was doing well with the ladies but she was different. After about a month of dating, we were exclusive. Things went very well and we were engaged within about 8 months, then married about 8 months before that. About 3 months after being married, she no longer wanted sex and quit touching and kissing me (all she could manage would be very quick peck kisses). We went about 1 ½ years before being intimate and after that, it was very infrequent duty sex. I was so desperate for affection and physical intimacy that I would take what I could get. Most of the time I felt more alone and depressed afterwards. We would go through cycles where we would be intimate once every week or two but there was just no longer a connection (we haven’t been intimate for about 6 weeks). We would also go a few months here and there without anything. We would have arguments and have been to a few marriage counselors but she says there is no problem (so nothing has worked). I have ordered the Primer and am hoping to implement it and see if I can improve my situation.

 Question One – Basic Questions

I am 38 and my wife is 37. We were together about 1 ½ years before getting married in 2011 How old are you and your spouse? We have a 2 year old and a 6 month old baby (she is still breastfeeding and does not get much sleep). My wife is pretty attractive. She is biracial and exotic-looking, 5’3” and weighs about 115lbs. After recently having a baby, I would say she is a 7, an easy 8 after she recovers. I am about 5’10” and weigh around 195 lbs. I gained some weight after getting married and have lost about 20 lbs. I want to lose about another 15 lbs, but have been working out and have good muscle. I would say that I am also a 7, but can get to an 8 once I am ripped.

 

Question Two – Rule Out Medical

This one is tricky. Overall I would say we are both healthy but there are a few relevant details here. Toward the beginning of the relationship I started experiencing some ED, which my wife has admitted that this had an impact on her attraction and sex drive. After not knowing what was wrong, I was tested and it turned out that my testosterone was very low (concussions from martial arts was the theory on the cause). I started taking testosterone and it resolved my ED issues and I started losing fat, gaining back muscle, and my energy improved.

For my wife, she was a few weeks pregnant when we got married, and miscarried when we returned from our honeymoon. She blames her lack of sex drive on the miscarriage. I strongly disagree on this, however. We weren’t intimate for a few weeks after the miscarriage but after that, she was totally fine on the intimacy front until she became pregnant with our first child. Then she declared that she no longer wanted to have sex because she thought it could lead to a miscarriage. She called off sex and I wanted to be supportive, so I let it go. But once she said no sex, she also quit touching and kissing be. If I tried to kiss her, she would not respond and basically lay there frozen. Eventually I quit trying because of the rejection and 18 months had went by. Even though intimacy was inconsistent, we eventually became pregnant with our second. She recently had an IUD inserted for birth control and then declared that she could not have sex for a minimum of 3 months (this was made up by her, not the doctor. The doctor said waiting a few days was fine).  

 

Question Three – Rule Out Structural Attraction Issues

We have a lot of debt and salaries are not great at the moment. I know this is a big deal for her. I would guess that we are about -25k when taking into account our townhouse being underwater and credit card debt. We also pay a lot for daycare so there is not much disposable income right now.

Physically, I am a little older, but so is she. I am probably about the same weight as I was when we first met.

Question Four – Rule Out Critical Moments and Neglect

I really wouldn’t say there has been anything big in terms of neglect. When she shuts down the intimacy, I do not react well emotionally. I would not classify my behavior as neglect but I think it is noteworthy. I start to feel unloved and undesired. She is completely happy and I feel like my marriage is dying.

 

Question Five – Rule Out Outside Sexual Sources

I do not believe there are any outside sources. At one of my low points, I did consider this and looked into it and ruled it out. Unfortunately I did learn a few things about her past that I wish I never knew. First, she was married before and a few months into her first marriage, she totally shut down on her husband. She eventually moved out as a part of a trial separation and ended up sleeping with another guy, which ended the marriage officially. This caused some tension with her family and she hid the details from me (she still doesn’t know I am aware of what happened, she would be livid at me for getting this information from somebody). So when I was trying to get her into counseling to work on the intimacy issues, I knew she had the same exact problem in her first marriage, but was unable to say what I knew. She is in complete denial that we have any issue at all.

 

Question Six – When Did the Sex Go Bad?

She became pregnant 3 months into the marriage and then it flipped off like a switch.

 

Question Seven – What Was the Sex Like at the Start of the Relationship?

It was okay. I was dealing with some ED issues at the time so that really impeded things in that area early on.

 

 

Question Eight – What’s the Elephant in the Room?

For her, she insists she is totally happy and has no problem with the relationship, outside of the fact that she doesn’t want me to bring up the intimacy issue. For me, the elephant in the room is a few things. First, that I feel like I was tricked into getting married because she was at the age where she wanted to settle down since she shut down the intimacy right after getting pregnant. Second, that she hid her first marriage’s intimacy issues from me. When investigating whether or not she was cheating, I also found out that she was extremely sexual with some guys that basically used her. This does not help my confidence since she does not want to have sex any longer and denies any issues.

Steve_NV

 

Question Nine – Who is the Leader in your Marriage?

I would say she is in a lot of ways. She stresses out about money much more than me and drives her to want to make more decisions.

 

Question Ten – Tell Us About the Good Times

We were the fun couple in love that had pictures of us taken in cool places and she would have her arms around me. Until she got pregnant, she used to make me feel desired and loved, and I was happier than I have ever been.

 

A few other things to add. She is highly educated and I would classify her as a verbal/rationalization ninja. For instance, when we first met and I sensed that more went on in her first marriage, I asked her if there was any cheating involved. Her response was, “We just started dating other people.” She left out the part about still being married when she did this. If I mention that we haven’t been intimate in a few months, she would tell be that she might be interested in sex more often if I quit talking about it. I know these rationalizations are not atypical, but I am not able to provide excellent examples right not because they are so numerous, if that makes sense. Just trust me when I say that once she thinks something, she is unable to move away from that and her mind spins off rationalizations at an astonishing rate. Because of this, I believe that she is immune to therapy (to her there is nothing to fix, there are reasons for her behavior).

I am so unhappy and I do not know how much longer I can tolerate both the lack of intimacy, and her denial that there is anything abnormal going on. If I try to calmly discuss the subject of intimacy with her, she quickly escalates in into a heated argument because she knows I will back off. I am reaching a breaking point and find myself not wanting to be around her. I no longer care about her day. I feel zero empathy for her if she does not feel well. I usually just feel anger towards her. 

Tiger

Welcome,

Well written triage. You say that she does not believe they is anything wrong with the current level of intimacy in your relationship. Have you communicate that it is not enough for you. I guess my point is that is not just about what is okay for her. 

When you say that you back off from her heated arguments, are you saying that you see de escalate the anger, or that you give into her position?

Stay or go, you need to get your finances in order, stop living above your means. Find some expenses to cut. You need to start paying down that debt. If you stay that's a great foundation, if you go divorce and child support are expensive. You don't want that debt hanging over you as well.

markymapo

First, she's right about one thing...stop talking about the lack of sex. Talking about the lack of sex does NOT lead to more sex. 

If you read the book, you need to go through the phases. Starting with phase 1. 

It sounds like a lack of attraction. Right now you are way too attracted to her and she is not with you. It's fine thinking you are a SR # and she is a SR #. But it's more of what she thinks your SR is. Don't ask her this. 

Its great you are working out. Keep at it. It's one of the most important things you can do. Also if you are clingy with her then stop. 

As you get more in shape and lose weight I would suggest getting new clothes. And change up your hair style. Trust me, she will notice you when you do this. 

I also think she withholds kissing and hugs because she thinks it will lead to sex. Right now she does not want sex. Try the 10 second kiss while gently holding the back of her neck. Do it as a way of non sexual kiss. 

frillyfun

You have two little kids, a lot of debt, and no plan.  That's a really big issue.  

Are you familiar with Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs? http://www.simplypsychology.org/maslow.html

The first levels are food, water, shelter, clothing, sleep, security- stuff like that.  Sex is also on the bottom step, but if you're hungry, or scared, or exhausted you're not going to really want to get busy.

Once you've secured those things you can move up the hierarchy to seek out things like love and good relationships.  I've really over-simplified this, but that's the gist.

If she's on the very lowest step because your finances are bad she's not going to move up the steps towards love, and romance until those basic needs are met.

That's why physicality, and money are steps 1 & 2 in the MAP.  They're sending immediate signals to her lizard brain that you'll be around to protect and provide for babies- which kicks in her body agenda, which makes her want to make more babies.

So, solve the budget, and lift heavy things for starters.  STFU about the sex.

The lying about the IUD is complete BS though.  I hope you called her out on that, and that she understands that it is a betrayal that won't be tolerated.  Plus it's medically stupid.  You're supposed to give them a good test drive before your follow-up appointment to make sure the strings are in a good place.  If she got a hormonal IUD that could tank her drive as well, but that's not what needs to be addressed RIGHT NOW.

Another thing to consider is that she's been pregnant, and breastfeeding for a good chunk of your marriage.  That's a big hormonal roller coaster that can seriously dampen drive.  There's a lot at issue here, but try not to take the lack of sex 100% personally.  There are/were definitely some medical reasons behind some of this.  

Crashaxe

Marriage is a sexual relationship. Her claiming that your relationship is just fine doesn't make it so.

It might be incredible denial, but it could also be incredible gaslighting by her. I'm betting on gaslighting.

Based upon her pattern of behavior in her first marriage and the sex and affection shutdown in your marriage with her, it sounds like you were baited and switched. She clearly lied to you by omitting such a huge issue as the events in her first marriage.

All the advice about improving finances, improving fitness and appearance, yadda yadda yadda is good advice for anyone in any circumstances, but I REALLY don't think that it is going to work for you.

The fact that she did this in a previous marriage and hid that fact from you is the key tell that this is most likely a psych issue she has and not a critical neglect issue.

This isn't a marriage where things slowly slid downhill over a long period of time due to a loss of attraction or one critical incident; she abruptly cut off all affection to you after she got pregnant, in a manner identical to what she did in her first marriage.

I suspect that she has some serious psychological problems. There is a fairly high likelihood that she was the victim of sexual abuse or rape, incidentally.

While you can run a MAP and perhaps eventually get her to admit it, and then get counseling and work through them, you are looking probably looking at 5 years minimum before things will POSSIBLY be better, and that is with a really big if: If she will ever admit to herself and you that she has problems. 

She has shown a lot of duplicity and selfishness with her actions, and not only in your marriage,  I don't think that you will be able to have the kind of sexual and affectionate relationship with her that you had.

I would highly recommend a 1 hour phone call with Athol Kay for your situation. He is a master at being able to see through the fog and tell you more about your situation than you would ever think anyone could possibly do.

Scarlet

I don't mean this in a lewd way, but how did the miscarriage go?  What happened, and how did you react?  That's an event ripe for Critical Moments of Neglect, so I wonder if there's something surrounding it that you are not seeing. 

Cowboy

I agree with @Crashaxe completely here. This whole thing raises huge alarm bells with me. My spidey-sense tells me she is hiding some big skeletons from you, and may be very dishonest. This is a huge red flag.
It sounds like you two didn't know each other all that long or well before you got married (which isn't always as bad as it sounds). None of her answers make a lot of sense; it's possible she really got sexually traumatized from the miscarriage, but if that was true she'd still want physical comfort. But saying sex was off-limits for three months after the IUD was put in just takes the cake. That's complete bullshit. She's clearly not telling you what the real issue is.
The fact that she never even told you details about the first marriage is really disturbing. To be clear, @Steve_NV ;, did you know she had been married before when you married her, or did you simply not know how it ended?
To be frank, and this may be painful, I think the real story was that she was cheating on her first husband early on, then shut him out and separated in order to set up life with the other man. The statement "we started dating other people" makes no sense in a marriage. If the marriage had problems, you'd just say "we fought all the time." No one goes out "dating" while in a new or stable marriage. That sounds like Cheaterspeak to me for "I started fucking someone else." The victim of adultery would be far more honest and forthright about it.

This sounds eerily similar to what my wife did early on in our marriage, and it was because she was cheating. When I touched her it reminded her of her infidelity. However, I don't want you to take that as gospel because I could be projecting. 

Athol_Kay

So... sexually shuts down shortly into the marriage with husband #1 and #2... but also has cheated / impulsive sex with guys that just used her.

Any sexual abuse history for her?

SteveNV

Tiger said:

Welcome,

Well written triage. You say that she does not believe they is anything wrong with the current level of intimacy in your relationship. Have you communicate that it is not enough for you. I guess my point is that is not just about what is okay for her. 

When you say that you back off from her heated arguments, are you saying that you see de escalate the anger, or that you give into her position?

Stay or go, you need to get your finances in order, stop living above your means. Find some expenses to cut. You need to start paying down that debt. If you stay that's a great foundation, if you go divorce and child support are expensive. You don't want that debt hanging over you as well.

Hi Tiger, Thank you for the response (I got locked out had to create a new account).

I would say I de-escalate the anger more than anything. Nothing really ever gets resolved after an argument.

I think the finances are the biggest hurdle. I am working hard to improve that but this will take me some time. 

SteveNV

Athol_Kay said:

So... sexually shuts down shortly into the marriage with husband #1 and #2... but also has cheated / impulsive sex with guys that just used her.

Any sexual abuse history for her?

Hi Athol, Thank you for the response (I got locked out had to create a new account).

This is a good question. There is no abuse history for her. It would make sense if there was, but there is nothing. The cheating on her ex may be a bit of a grey area, I don't know. They were seperated but not supposed to date other people while they worked on things. To me, it is cheating. But I think in her mind she rationalized it away. For the impulsive sex thing, I may have described that incorrectly. By that I just mean that she dated guys (after being divorced) and was highly sexually interested in them. I wouldn't say it was impulsive, but if the guy was attractive and not looking for a relationship, she was putty in their hands and got strung along by a few guys, hoping they would commit to her.

SteveNV

Cowboy said:

I agree with @Crashaxe completely here. This whole thing raises huge alarm bells with me. My spidey-sense tells me she is hiding some big skeletons from you, and may be very dishonest. This is a huge red flag.
It sounds like you two didn't know each other all that long or well before you got married (which isn't always as bad as it sounds). None of her answers make a lot of sense; it's possible she really got sexually traumatized from the miscarriage, but if that was true she'd still want physical comfort. But saying sex was off-limits for three months after the IUD was put in just takes the cake. That's complete bullshit. She's clearly not telling you what the real issue is.
The fact that she never even told you details about the first marriage is really disturbing. To be clear, @Steve_NV ;, did you know she had been married before when you married her, or did you simply not know how it ended?
To be frank, and this may be painful, I think the real story was that she was cheating on her first husband early on, then shut him out and separated in order to set up life with the other man. The statement "we started dating other people" makes no sense in a marriage. If the marriage had problems, you'd just say "we fought all the time." No one goes out "dating" while in a new or stable marriage. That sounds like Cheaterspeak to me for "I started fucking someone else." The victim of adultery would be far more honest and forthright about it.

This sounds eerily similar to what my wife did early on in our marriage, and it was because she was cheating. When I touched her it reminded her of her infidelity. However, I don't want you to take that as gospel because I could be projecting. 

Hi Cowboy, Thanks for the comment (I got locked out had to create a new account). I did know she was married. But all I was told about how it ended was that he was a narcissistic jerk. Had I known they had a trial separation and agreed to not date other people, I would probably not have dated her. Maybe her cheating falls into a grey area, but I still feel hurt it was withheld from me. Important mate-selection information was not given to me, is how I see it. I had other very good options at that point. I just feel like I was tricked into marrying her.

The whole IUD thing is really hurtful to me. I know it isn't a legit excuse and because it goes along with how she has behaved for the majority of the marriage, I feel like I am not valued. I don't think she is cheating, I believe she has some serious intimacy issues, for whatever reason. I went black ops a while ago and still monitor the situation, nothing has ever made me think there is another man. I feel pretty comfortable saying that right now.

SteveNV

Scarlet said:

I don't mean this in a lewd way, but how did the miscarriage go?  What happened, and how did you react?  That's an event ripe for Critical Moments of Neglect, so I wonder if there's something surrounding it that you are not seeing. 

Hi Scarlet, Thanks for the comment (I got locked out had to create a new account). It was tough for both of us. But certainly harder on her. I really don't think I would say there was any neglect there. Maybe I am blind to it but I think I was pretty supportive. She seemed fine and normal from about 3 weeks after up until she got pregnant, then she shut down and wasn't able to touch me.

SteveNV

generalzod said:

In short, you can't rule out structural, medical (on both sides - between your ED and her being loaded with postpartum hormones and presumable sleep deprivation), and to be totally honest, I don't know that you've ruled out Outside Sources tightly enough.  Her history of bailing on a previous marriage for another man, and strangely opting for the type of birth control used for someone with a very active sex life, despite you guys not having a very active sex life, is reason enough to do some further investigating.  

Read the Primer.  Then the MAP book.  Then buy the videos.

You seriously need to run a really strong MAP starting immediately.  Get a MAP thread going with all your Reds, Yellows, and Greens and start plugging away.  

When investigating whether or not she was cheating, I also found out that she was extremely sexual with some guys that basically used her. 

Provide more detail on this.  Was this before your marriage?  Before her first?  Between?

Hi Zod, Thanks for the response. I actually feel fairly confident on ruling out another guy. I don't want to go into too much detail but let's just say once I found out the details of her last marriage, I really did my homework and have kept an eye on everything. If she knew the things I have done keep tabs, she would not be too happy.

So here is a basic timeline based on the evidence I was able to gather and confirm (she is unaware I know all of this). She physically/emotionally shut down on her first husband and then he became depressed. Then because he was depressed, she wanted out (after about 5 months). They agreed to a trial separation and she moved out of state, but they were not to date other people. She ended up sleeping with another guy after going out with him and drinking (she really had no interest in this other guy). Then she went back to her husband and confessed and begged for his forgiveness and agreed to move back home. He forgave her but then she changed her mind about reconciliation (this may have been because there was yet another guy she was interested in sexually, it was a while ago and I can't confirm this part, but it makes sense) Then after she told him she wasn't going to get back together with him, he just couldn't deal with it and told her family what she did. This cause some of them to become very angry with her and the strain lasted a while. A month or so after deciding to get divorced, she began a fling with a guy from another state. She basically had him fly in a few times a month to stay the weekend with her to have sex. He lost interest and/or decided the travel wasn't worth it after a while and quit talking to her. Then she met another guy online dating, this was as her divorce was becoming finalized. After a few dates she started a sexual relationship with him and after a while, she asked if they were boyfriend/girlfriend. He told her that he had no time for a relationship but wanted to continue seeing her for sex (which she agreed to because of how attracted she was to him). She was essentially a booty call to him for about 6-8 months until he finally quit contacting her. This was a very hurtful experience for her because she did everything for this guy sexually but he did not want a relationship to her. Then there were two other guys that she had similar situations with, she hadn't dated anybody for about 6 months before me. For me, these things are relevant because I believe they indicate that she might need to be chasing unavailable men in order to feel turned on enough to be sexual. I may be wrong though. 

I am waiting for Athol's books to get here but have been working on myself. I am probably in better shape physically now than I was when I met my wife. I have probably lost 25-30 pounds in the last year and am what most people would call muscular. I have about another 15 pounds to go in order to get the ripped MMA athlete look I am going for. So I have done pretty well there. My wife and other people comment on my new muscle. I know the two areas I need to work on most are financial (this will take the most time, I believe) and refining my behavior to become more attractive in that respect.

While my wife will not have sex with me, she will on occasion do other things. There are a few very beautiful girls that will sometimes flirt with me in front of my wife (I have no idea why they are so brazen). Each time something like that happend, I sense my wife becoming a little insecure and about two days after she saw the flirting, she is good for a HJ.        

SteveNV

Crashaxe said:

Marriage is a sexual relationship. Her claiming that your relationship is just fine doesn't make it so.

It might be incredible denial, but it could also be incredible gaslighting by her. I'm betting on gaslighting.

Based upon her pattern of behavior in her first marriage and the sex and affection shutdown in your marriage with her, it sounds like you were baited and switched. She clearly lied to you by omitting such a huge issue as the events in her first marriage.

All the advice about improving finances, improving fitness and appearance, yadda yadda yadda is good advice for anyone in any circumstances, but I REALLY don't think that it is going to work for you.

The fact that she did this in a previous marriage and hid that fact from you is the key tell that this is most likely a psych issue she has and not a critical neglect issue.

This isn't a marriage where things slowly slid downhill over a long period of time due to a loss of attraction or one critical incident; she abruptly cut off all affection to you after she got pregnant, in a manner identical to what she did in her first marriage.

I suspect that she has some serious psychological problems. There is a fairly high likelihood that she was the victim of sexual abuse or rape, incidentally.

While you can run a MAP and perhaps eventually get her to admit it, and then get counseling and work through them, you are looking probably looking at 5 years minimum before things will POSSIBLY be better, and that is with a really big if: If she will ever admit to herself and you that she has problems. 

She has shown a lot of duplicity and selfishness with her actions, and not only in your marriage,  I don't think that you will be able to have the kind of sexual and affectionate relationship with her that you had.

I would highly recommend a 1 hour phone call with Athol Kay for your situation. He is a master at being able to see through the fog and tell you more about your situation than you would ever think anyone could possibly do.

Hi Crashaxe, Thank you for your comment (I had to create a new account for technical issues). I think you really dialed in to what I am dealing with. I do not really believe it started as an attraction issue since it happened so abruptly. I do admit, I let myself slide a little physically for a while and did not react well to being shut out from the relationship part of marriage. I believe that she has some deep intimacy issue, but do not believe there was any past abuse. It would make a lot of sense if that was the case, but based on everything I have learned, I do not think there is anything there. Her husband was the first guy she was ever with and she shut down on him after a few months, which leads me to believe it predates that relationship. They dated for about 5 years before getting married and she was very sweet, respectful, and sexual towards him. A few months after she got married, she shut down. She rationalizes just about everything and I honestly think she is in deep denial most of the time. We have been to a few therapists over the years and she would sit there and politely answer the questions with a smile. But she wouldn't really open up about her past behavior and how there could be some issues within her that make intimacy impossible. I really don't know how I can get her to snap out of it and work on herself. When we started therapy, both therapists basically went directly to how I can make myself more attractive to my wife, and maybe then she will be able to be intimate. The fact that it happened abruptly and that it is a pattern for her were of no consequence to them (not that my wife really told them those details). I guess I just feel like a therapist (and my wife) have no interest in dealing with the root cause.

She proclaims she is completely happy and seems honestly confused as to how I can have any issue with a lack of intimacy. If I lay with her on the couch after the kids fall asleep, she will use me as a pillow and fall asleep withing 10 minutes. Then to her, I have had my intimacy and there is nothing else to discuss. It is incredibly frustrating and hurtful that she is so dismissive. As my resentment builds towards her and her apathy, I am worried that I will soon look outside of the marriage to get my needs met. The bond that we had when we first got married is gone. She is essentially a co-parenting roommate that gives me bi-monthly HJ's and is not only fine with that, but unwilling to budge on improving the situation. To her, everything is 100% perfect as long as I have no complaints. If not for my kids, I would have left her for a woman that was interested in me a long time ago. I want to keep my marriage together for the kids but her attitude and denial create an unsustainable situation for me. If just makes me so sad.   

markymapo

From what you write about her past, she basically has sex with guys she's interested in to keep them.  

But right now she's NOT having sex with you. Even though she has an IUD. 

Honestly, I see a pattern here. She did the same to the other husband. He got depressed and she bailed. 

My opinion, she is NOT wife material. 

In the primer book, he writes about how wives string their husbands along with duty sex (once a month if that) or other things. Until they just become used to the lack of sex and just give up. 

That is what she is doing. As long as you don't complain about the sex thing, she is happy. And just gives you a few HJ's to keep you in check. 

You my friend are in a sexless marriage. 

As for looking outside the marriage, that won't help a single thing. It will make it worse. 

Just run your map to make yourself a better man. Not every women responds to a MAP. Especially when she sees no problem with a sexless marriage. But the MAP makes you better to seek out that woman who will. 

SteveNV

Question Seven – What Was the Sex Like at the Start of the Relationship?

It was okay. I was dealing with some ED issues at the time so that really impeded things in that area early on.

 

 

Question Eight – What’s the Elephant in the Room?

For her, she insists she is totally happy and has no problem with the relationship, outside of the fact that she doesn’t want me to bring up the intimacy issue. For me, the elephant in the room is a few things. First, that I feel like I was tricked into getting married because she was at the age where she wanted to settle down since she shut down the intimacy right after getting pregnant. Second, that she hid her first marriage’s intimacy issues from me. When investigating whether or not she was cheating, I also found out that she was extremely sexual with some guys that basically used her. This does not help my confidence since she does not want to have sex any longer and denies any issues.

 

Question Nine – Who is the Leader in your Marriage?

I would say she is in a lot of ways. She stresses out about money much more than me and drives her to want to make more decisions.

 

Question Ten – Tell Us About the Good Times

We were the fun couple in love that had pictures of us taken in cool places and she would have her arms around me. Until she got pregnant, she used to make me feel desired and loved, and I was happier than I have ever been.

 

A few other things to add. She is highly educated and I would classify her as a verbal/rationalization ninja. For instance, when we first met and I sensed that more went on in her first marriage, I asked her if there was any cheating involved. Her response was, “We just started dating other people.” She left out the part about still being married when she did this. If I mention that we haven’t been intimate in a few months, she would tell be that she might be interested in sex more often if I quit talking about it. I know these rationalizations are not atypical, but I am not able to provide excellent examples right not because they are so numerous, if that makes sense. Just trust me when I say that once she thinks something, she is unable to move away from that and her mind spins off rationalizations at an astonishing rate. Because of this, I believe that she is immune to therapy (to her there is nothing to fix, there are reasons for her behavior).

I am so unhappy and I do not know how much longer I can tolerate both the lack of intimacy, and her denial that there is anything abnormal going on. If I try to calmly discuss the subject of intimacy with her, she quickly escalates in into a heated argument because she knows I will back off. I am reaching a breaking point and find myself not wanting to be around her. I no longer care about her day. I feel zero empathy for her if she does not feel well. I usually just feel anger towards her.  

   I have been a long time lurker and am finally posting about my problem to get insight from the group.

I have been married for about 4 years and to say it has been a challenge in an understatement. Sometimes I am barely able to tolerate my situation, other times I am full of anger and want to withdrawal from my wife. I don’t know if my situation is salvageable, or if it is time to start looking forward. I will try to outline my situation as concisely as possible.

When I met my wife I was immediately attracted to her. I was doing well with the ladies but she was different. After about a month of dating, we were exclusive. Things went very well and we were engaged within about 8 months, then married about 8 months before that. About 3 months after being married, she no longer wanted sex and quit touching and kissing me (all she could manage would be very quick peck kisses). We went about 1 ½ years before being intimate and after that, it was very infrequent duty sex. I was so desperate for affection and physical intimacy that I would take what I could get. Most of the time I felt more alone and depressed afterwards. We would go through cycles where we would be intimate once every week or two but there was just no longer a connection (we haven’t been intimate for about 6 weeks). We would also go a few months here and there without anything. We would have arguments and have been to a few marriage counselors but she says there is no problem (so nothing has worked). I have ordered the Primer and am hoping to implement it and see if I can improve my situation.

SteveNV

markymapo said:

From what you write about her past, she basically has sex with guys she's interested in to keep them.  

But right now she's NOT having sex with you. Even though she has an IUD. 

Honestly, I see a pattern here. She did the same to the other husband. He got depressed and she bailed. 

My opinion, she is NOT wife material. 

In the primer book, he writes about how wives string their husbands along with duty sex (once a month if that) or other things. Until they just become used to the lack of sex and just give up. 

That is what she is doing. As long as you don't complain about the sex thing, she is happy. And just gives you a few HJ's to keep you in check. 

You my friend are in a sexless marriage. 

As for looking outside the marriage, that won't help a single thing. It will make it worse. 

Just run your map to make yourself a better man. Not every women responds to a MAP. Especially when she sees no problem with a sexless marriage. But the MAP makes you better to seek out that woman who will. 

Thank you Markymapo, I am afraid you are right. I just wish I had her background info before I got involved with her. I would have saved a lot of heartache and could have picked a partner that actually wants to be in a marriage. I get interest from other women, but don't see myself cheating right now, even as resentful and desperate as I am. Over the last 6 months or so, I think that she thinks I have given up. And to a large degree I may have. So she couldn't be happier with the marriage, I haven't said a peep in a while. Although, down inside I just get angrier and more lonely. 

Angeline

@Jen_Kay can you combine the threads and maybe accounts? This will get very confusing otherwise. 

Jen_Kay

Threads merged.