Wife mentioned having a date night - I blew off the idea because of what happened last time. Bad?

SteveNVSteveNV NVMember Posts: 27
So the other day my wife mentioned getting a sitter and having a date night (it has been a long time). The last time we went out it left a very bad impression with me so I am hesitant to go through that again. I know I need to get over things if I am going to improve my marriage but I feel like I have an emotional hurdle.

Our last date started off okay. A few days before she mentioned that she was excited to spend some quality time together and have some alone time to be intimate (which was a very rare occurrence at the time). We had a nice dinner and stayed at the restaurant for a while. Then she wanted to go look around at the mall afterwards to look around. Our sitter was able to watch our kids until 8pm, we ended up at the mall around 5:30pm, so not a ton of time left. While we were at the mall I was thinking that we will need to be quick since there was a bit of a drive to get home, in order to have that alone time. Then while at the mall, she said she wanted to go to another store in the area, I agreed to go but told her we didn't have much time. Then she wanted to run to another place, just real quick. Then it started to dawn on me that she might be avoiding going home since these little trips were unnecessary and she wasn't buying anything. When we finally got home, we had about 25 minutes left before having to pick the kids up. I went to the restroom to change out of my dress clothes and wash up real quick, then came out a few minutes later to find her sleeping on the couch. It wasn't enough time for a normal person to fall asleep after getting home so I assumed it was her way of checking out and avoiding a potential physical encounter. I went to pick up our kid but was very hurt by this. I told myself I didn't want to set myself up for this kind of disappointment again.

I know that there were a lot of things that I should have handled differently that day. But my wife has brought up wanting to go out on another date night. Because we haven't had sex in around 3 months, I don't really feel connected to her or like I want to spend any alone time with her. Also, I don't want to set myself up for rejection because I know that sex isn't an option. She declared she couldn't have sex because of her IUD being inserted a few months earlier (she is now saying it might take 6 months before she will have sex). I sort of brushed off the date night idea but I am not sure I am doing the right thing. I want to improve our connection but I am so hurt over what happened last time and her bizarre excuses for needing to be celibate, that I just feel I am having a hard time getting over things. Any suggestions on how I should proceed? I know I have some feelings I need to work through.    
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Comments

  • SteveNVSteveNV NVMember Posts: 27
    Thank you Kheldar. I think there is definitely a covert contract at this point. The first time, she said sex would happen and then apparently changed her mind. This time she mentioned nothing about sex and I am aware there is no chance for that. I think part of me does not want to feel like I am doing anything for me since she doesn't care about my needs. Since her intimacy problem was so abrupt, I don't think it stemmed from lack of attraction, but the way I feel about her right now surely does not make her feel attracted.  
  • TigerTiger SeattleCategory Moderator* Posts: 2,324
    For most woman a desire to have sex is a responsive desire.  That is, it is not something instigated by them, but rather a response to the person that they are with and their attraction to that person.  That's why you so often hear about woman wanting to wait for sex to "just happen", or "let it happen naturally".  What that means is that the man that they are with is so attractive in that moment that it triggers their responsive desire to have sex.

    Most women don't really understand how this works, nor do most men.  So they both assume that when she says, "If you do X, Y and Z" then we can have sex.  But that may well not be the case, it could be that "A, B and C" which are unrelated trigger her responsive desire and can lead to sex, or it could be that you do "X, Y and Z" and something neither of you knew was an important thing is different this time and thus no responsive desire.

    As frustrating as it can be for you SteveNV, it could be equally frustrating for her, because she may well not have any idea why she's not attracted to you right now and not wanting sex, all she knows is that she's not.  The logical part of her brain is trying to find reasons for it and comes up with something.  That something may or may not be related to the real issue.

    So run your MAP, make yourself the best version of you that you can be.  That probably involves going out and spending one on on time together, pretty hard to build attraction without that in place.  It might lead to sex this time, or it might not.  But it's a building block for attraction.
    frillyfunMariaTrumanLordFlashheart
  • SteveNVSteveNV NVMember Posts: 27
    Tiger said:
    For most woman a desire to have sex is a responsive desire.  That is, it is not something instigated by them, but rather a response to the person that they are with and their attraction to that person.  That's why you so often hear about woman wanting to wait for sex to "just happen", or "let it happen naturally".  What that means is that the man that they are with is so attractive in that moment that it triggers their responsive desire to have sex.

    Most women don't really understand how this works, nor do most men.  So they both assume that when she says, "If you do X, Y and Z" then we can have sex.  But that may well not be the case, it could be that "A, B and C" which are unrelated trigger her responsive desire and can lead to sex, or it could be that you do "X, Y and Z" and something neither of you knew was an important thing is different this time and thus no responsive desire.

    As frustrating as it can be for you SteveNV, it could be equally frustrating for her, because she may well not have any idea why she's not attracted to you right now and not wanting sex, all she knows is that she's not.  The logical part of her brain is trying to find reasons for it and comes up with something.  That something may or may not be related to the real issue.

    So run your MAP, make yourself the best version of you that you can be.  That probably involves going out and spending one on on time together, pretty hard to build attraction without that in place.  It might lead to sex this time, or it might not.  But it's a building block for attraction.
    Thanks Tiger. I know you are right. I am new to all this and still having a hard time with the inherent "unfairness" of all of this. Once she got pregnant she friendzoned me and I just never got over that anger. I care more about the relationship so I know it has to be up to me to try to get things going again. It is just hard with all the resentment. I am not the best at letting things go.
  • SteveNVSteveNV NVMember Posts: 27
    Someone is going to have to break the deadlock, and since you're here and MAPping, it's going to be you.

    First, as Kheldar said, no covert contracts. You want sex, initiate (and be prepared for a hard no). Dates are for building attraction and intimacy, not to "soften her up" for sex.

    For the best result (at increasing attraction!), be the Captain and plan everything. Hire the babysitter, make dinner reservations, plan a couple "location bounces", things to do after dinner at other locations. No errands, nothing mundane, just an evening of fun, romantic things.

    If you think it will be accepted, tell your wife which dress to wear.

    For example, you might go to a bar for cocktails, then to dinner, then to a different bar with live music.

    Fill the time completely, until you have to go home. Pay the sitter, take her home, then don't expect anything else. If your wife changes into Frumpzilla pajamas and goes to sleep ... fine. If she is affectionate when you get back, try initiating, but again, accept her hard no with grace.

    Thanks for the words Hilda. I know sex is off the table for a long time so I wouldn't be expecting anything; at least not consciously. It's just that the more alone time I spend with her, the more resentment I feel. I guess I am worried that we will go out and afterwards I will be even more depressed about the state of my marriage.

    When I first got married I figured things would cool off eventually, years down the road. But it never occurred to me that a partner would just completely shut done so abruptly. I never thought it would happen to me. I need to get over my feelings. If I don't initiate, don't touch her, and don't complain, she is 100% happy and says she has a dream life. So I know she has no motivation to change anything. I am in better shape than when we met and get regular interest from other women. I would like to stay with her if things get back on track but since she did the same exact shutdown thing 3 months into her last marriage, I worry that is just how she is wired. Either way, I will run my MAP and keep getting better. 
    WhereWasI
  • SteveNVSteveNV NVMember Posts: 27
    Generalzod, I really appreciate the response and the words of encouragement and to hear about your situation. I think I am just at a low point right now. I get these from time to time. It usually takes a while to snap out of it.

    I have interest from a very attractive younger woman and I think it is messing with my head and impacting my resolve. She doesn't care that I am married and wants me over some night to watch a movie at her place. It is just making me see what I am missing in being desired. I want to keep my family together and hearing what you had to say feels helpful to me. Thank you. 
  • never_againnever_again CanadaSilver Member Posts: 1,372
    edited April 2015
    I commented on your triage thread but wanted to add something here.  My inclination for the date night is to not reward bad behavior.  But I will bow to more experienced MAPpers on that. Just wanted to put it out there.

    However, the point I really wanted to make is that your wife seems to respond to pre-selection.  When women flirt with you, she gives you a HJ.  Her way of staking her claim.  http://marriedmansexlife.com/2011/12/preselection/

    We don't do "dread" here, but I wonder if you're too available to her.  What do you do for yourself?  Do you get out with the boys and do manly things?  Do you do too much around the house and not enough around your world?  Are you out in the world being awesome where other women, but especially your wife, notice?  Expect some push-back on it but you need to get out and away from her.  
    The man who gives his woman everything ends up with nothing. Not even the woman.
    frillyfunTPokeVerethragna
  • SignorePillolaRossaSignorePillolaRossa mid atlantic usaSilver Member Posts: 4,079
    welcome to the beginning of the death of oneitis and smashing of wife goggles.
    MAP to make yourself awesome then get ready to make a statement of expectations ... at some point you will let her know that your needs will be met - hopefully married to her if she is willing to become a suitable wife

    good luck

    Sr. PR

    ============================
    sapere aude

    Fuck Culture. Live your life - Beatrice
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    [Deleted User]
  • HowardHoward EuropeSilver Member Posts: 618
    @Steve_NV ; -please watch out with the attraction for/offers from outside your marriage. They seem to be part of the process of energies building up…that's my recent experience.

    I considered my marriage stagnant- well to be honest I'd given it no consideration at all- so when I hugged Ms. Gorgeous OW and she held me tight the dam just broke and I went for it. Had I been MAPping already, that might not have happened and I could have saved myself guilt and some heartbreak and the injury to my wife.  

    Your wife is definitely responsive to you and in her heart is aware of the issues around sex. Give her space to work it out while you learn to feel good about yourself OI -"outcome independent". Be prepared for signs of improvement but without much really changing noticeably for a looong time. If you monitor the process then as @SignorePillolaRossa says, you will get a sense of where you are in the MAP.

    H
    "Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
    "Do more of what you love."
    Verethragna
  • SteveNVSteveNV NVMember Posts: 27
    I commented on your triage thread but wanted to add something here.  My inclination for the date night is to not reward bad behavior.  But I will bow to more experienced MAPpers on that. Just wanted to put it out there.

    However, the point I really wanted to make is that your wife seems to respond to pre-selection.  When women flirt with you, she gives you a HJ.  Her way of staking her claim.  http://marriedmansexlife.com/2011/12/preselection/

    We don't do "dread" here, but I wonder if you're too available to her.  What do you do for yourself?  Do you get out with the boys and do manly things?  Do you do too much around the house and not enough around your world?  Are you out in the world being awesome where other women, but especially your wife, notice?  Expect some push-back on it but you need to get out and away from her.  
    The pre-selection does seem to really move the needle, at least a little bit. I think you are right on with my availability to her. I should make myself a little more scarce. I don't really get out a lot and do things for myself. Partly because of our busy life situation at the moment, and partly because I have sort of lost touch with that and let it go. There are times when I do get out by myself and there is a small problem. The younger girl that has shown interest in me has been fairly upfront about it. She basically makes her living on her looks (as a waitress/bartender at a place guys go to look at them), and my wife knows about her through mutual acquaintances and when I leave, she always asks if I am going out with this other girl. At first I thought it might be good for her to worry about that but I don't want her to get uncomfortable in terms of loyalty and think I will cheat on her. This other girl is constantly turning down high status guys like professional athletes and is quite striking on the beauty front, so my wife sees her as a threat. Maybe some time with other men will help me get back in touch. I appreciate your insight.   
  • SteveNVSteveNV NVMember Posts: 27
    frillyfun said:
    Yes to a date night....but I think keeping it simple would be best.  

    Think free/cheap, but creative- a picnic in the park, or a date night in without the kids would be a good first date night.  Something that makes you look cool, gives you a connection and shared experience, but you don't have to get really fancy.   Let her work her way up to couple's massages, or $100 dinners.

    Definitely make the plans though.  Leadership is sexy.
    Thank you for the suggestions. I think I will take your advice and take the lead on a night out, and keep it simple. Right now, I really want to try to be more positive and have a good energy. Going out and being fun will be better than avoiding my situation. Avoiding her has got me nowhere.
    Tigerfrillyfun
  • SteveNVSteveNV NVMember Posts: 27
    Thank you Elise. I do want to rebuild and not tear down. I definitely don't want my wife to feel hurt. I have always had trouble letting things go and I am going to do the date night and have a good time. I think part of me felt like it was rewarding bad behavior but I don't think I can view it that way. If I want things to get better, I need to be better than that. She is really a great woman. She is a wonderful mom and too smart for her own good. All of my coworkers think she is gorgeous and she is very good to everybody. I just want to navigate through this, if I can.
  • SteveNVSteveNV NVMember Posts: 27
    Elise said:
    Good luck and go into it with a goal of just having fun together. Sounds like you guys have a lot to work through (I just made it through your other thread). I would suggest that you "date her" while you work on yourself. Make her feel special again but of course you don't have to reward bad behavior. As a mom of young kids, I too used to struggle immensely with stepping out of that role and into the sex kitten role. Desire and opportunity makes that a lot easier. 
    Thanks Elise. I know that part of the issue is just the situation, some of which I have no control over. I do understand how hard it is to be a mom. I feel like I owe it to my family to be better and try to get this worked out. 
    Elise[Deleted User]
  • JesusMarimbaJesusMarimba Silver Member Posts: 1,282
    edited May 2015
    I'm coming in from the wild here, so my apologies for not knowing your history.

    Have you been making progress on improving yourself? Passing shit-tests and making yourself a priority?

    If this is happening, but your sex life isn't improving (because the sex comes last) then, based on your experience from your last date-night, I think her "date-night" is actually a shit-test.

    You're pulling out of your rut. She feels the control is slipping, and if you're passing the obvious shit-tests, then she'll want to break out the big gun, something she knows you won't pass up.

    But she doesn't want to fuck you.

    So she breaks out "Date Night." If you have a lackluster sex-life, then "Date Night" is a very "overt" covert contract: "If you take me out, take me to a nice restaurant (which you usually don't do) and lavish attention and validation on me, then maybe I'll have sex with you. You set up the night, you keep trying during the night and maybe, just maybe, I'll give it up."

    Notice something there? You have to uphold your end of that contract, but she may hold up her end.

    Guys, from your BP days, how'd that usually work out? Yeah... me too.

    Now she's told you that you'll get lucky, but everyone knows that's BS. A "Date Night" is set up so she is going to make sure you fulfill your end, and when she reneges, there's no way for you to collect on what she's offered. (You could, but that is morally repugnant and to jail you will go.)

    So her Date Night is an exchange of goods and resources for hope. She's looking for an upfront confirmation that she still has enough influence over you to spend time, money, and affection on her without having to give anything back.

    What Do? Well when you're dealing with covert, you can go overt. Crush that covert contract.

    If you agree and go on a Date Night, set a goal: sex isn't happening. You're doing this Date Night for other reasons. If she hints, bluntly shut her down. "Not happening." If she wants to sex you up, she has to do the leg-work and initiate. (But don't tell her that. Just say it's not happening if she tries to imply that if "you play your cards right" sexy-times will happen.)

    If she does what she did last time, and says she wants to be intimate with you, then tell her that sex comes first on Date Night. "Sure, on Date Night, if the sex is good enough, we'll get dressed and go to a good restaurant. No sex or lame sex... well McDonalds is a 'family restaurant' right?"

    And if she's true to her word, after sex you go to Chez DrainMyWallet. If she gives you crap when you make your offer, then no Date Night, or more likely, when she reneges at the last minute: Taco Bell it is.

    countrygirlyTPoke
  • dalefdalef Silver Member Posts: 1,963
    I'd say a better idea is "skittles". Date Night is something like putt-putt golf and hot dogs.
    [Deleted User]TPokeWheelMan
  • AngelineAngeline planting seedsCategory Moderator** Posts: 14,500
    edited May 2015
    Good Lord, that plan is full of -1's.

    E.T.A. @dalef and I cross posted. I meant this one is full of passive aggressive -1's,
    http://marriedmansexlife.vanillaforums.com/discussion/comment/465784/#Comment_465784

    @dalef's is the better course - make the dates fun and lighthearted and about spending time together, not spending money together.
    "Speak your truth." - Scarlet
    Remember to play!
    Do the right thing, whether anyone is watching or not.
    Be married, until you are not.

    Email address: angeline.greenwood@att.net
    WinterfrillyfunHildaCornersHowlAtTheMoon
  • CountryDudeCountryDude ThailandMember Posts: 115
    I feel your pain, but they way you are acting isn't going to help.

    My idea: YOU arrange a date night and YOU take her out (to somewhere you think she will like).  Shopping is not part of a date though.

    Try not to worry about the sex;expect that you won't get it.  If she doesn't do a magic falling asleep act, then she might actually be in the mood.  You could try to initiate sex then (only if you can take possible further rejection without showing negative emotion), or you can just leave her high & dry and switch on the TV and relax after a nice date.
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