A Carbonated Triage

Carbonated

Question One – Basic Questions

We are both mid 30s. Married for 9 years, together for 14.

We have a son, aged 6, who we both worship.

As I've grown older my rank has increased, 7. I'm a healthy weight, but I've a few soft bits that need firming up. 5'9, 76kg. I was beyond skinny 14 years ago, and actually look better now than then. I've certainly been noticed by women more now than when we first met.

She is very overweight, morbidly obese. I don't know how much she weighs but it's considerable. She is 5' 4. Rank around a 4. I've not been allowed to see her naked in years.

Question Two – Rule Out Medical

I'm pretty healthy, I'm waiting on tests from a colonoscopy, but I'm not expecting to get any bad news from this.

My wife is healthy also. We were trying to have another baby, but her weight has prevented that. Down to the age of our son, we may now be too late to have another child.

Just after my son was born she did have a major incident which could have been fatal, but fortunately the private medical insurance provided by my employer sorted everything out. The condition, which we can trace back at least 6 months cause her to loose quite a lot of weight, but she put it back on soon after recovering.

Question Three – Rule Out Structural Attraction Issues

We both have high income, high stress jobs. 

We have struggled to not spend our money on crap we don't need. 

Generally we have a few months of spending beyond our income and then a month of spending very little to recover from it.

We are now under control of our money, reducing what we owe down to just mortgage and a car loan. Car loan is at 0%.

Our mortgage is high, but not uncomfortable with us both earning.

We couldn't cope with one of us giving up work.

We live in a good area, both drive good cars.

Question Four – Rule Out Critical Moments and Neglect

After many, many years of ignoring the increasing weight, I switched to being more supportive. If she ever mentioned that xxx would help her loose weight, then xxx was purchased and available within a week. Various weight loss clubs were joined and then after a few months she just drifted away and didn't go back. We have spent $1000's on these things, with nothing improving.

More recently I have been more direct, telling her she does need to loose weight, for both me and my son. It does seem to have made a difference, the things I bought are now being used. However she told me a week ago "I don't want to sleep with you any more because I keep thinking you think I'm fat.". WTF do you say to that. The last few times I've had any action (prior to a the comment above) afterwards I've been left feeling like she's had to do something she regrets.

Question Five – Rule Out Outside Sexual Sources

I can rule them out, no orbiters, no dodgy messages or emails. I'm frequently told that chocolate is better than sex, and with her weight issues I am starting to feel like chocolate and cake is her affair.

Carbonated

Question Six – When Did the Sex Go Bad?

I'm really struggling to work this one out. I think I woke up one day and realised the sex was crap. We have gone in waves, sometimes sex is so bad, the lack of effort made by my wife makes me feel dirty like she has had to put up with some kind of horror done to her.

Other times it's been really good, like REALLY good. She just doesn't really make much of an effort at anytime. It's a night to remember if she goes as far as actually touching me.

We do have some good nights, even recently, we have some fun toys for me to use on her. Never the other way around. She can be willing to try diffeent things, even suggesting them, but then all of a sudden it's all shutdown again and I'm lucky to be given even a nice word.

Question Seven – What Was the Sex Like at the Start of the Relationship?

We got together as a one night stand - my first and only. She'd had a lot more prior to me. The Sex was amazing HJ BJ trying anything and everything. She wasn't thin when we met, but she was a LOT smaller. We had a great time.

Question Eight – What’s the Elephant in the Room?

Divorce/separation is out of the question, on numerous times I have been told that if we split up, she will take DS to the state where she grew up, 4+ hours away from where we live. This is extortion, is unfair and takes away any power I might have.  As a father in a mothers world, I have no leg to stand on if things go that way. For this reason, and she knows it, separation is NOT an option.

 

I had stopped all porn use, and had been "clean" for 7 months. I find myself more frustrated now than before, I occasionally want to go back to it just to spite her. Since the not sleeping with you comment I've drifted back a few times. There are no skeletons in my closet, I'm just too beta.

Question Nine – Who is the Leader in your Marriage?

9/10 it's me, or it's expected to be me. Unless I decide in a direction that is not to her liking, then we get an explosion and everything is my fault. I used to be able to just ignore it, but I'm being pushed to far to often and I now snap back at her. Arguments fights and general unhappiness follows followed by a sudden niceness.

Question Ten – Tell Us About the Good Times

In the beginning the marrage went well. Wife was slimmer, job stresses for both of us were a lot lower. We went out more together.

As with the majority of people who have children, life got a lot more complicated when my son arrived. We have no local support so since he was born we've only had 7 nights away from him together.

--------------------------------

I'm at a loss as to what I'm doing wrong. I'm a VERY tolerant person, and can deal with the most stressful situations in a calm and sensible way. I'm balanced, genuine and honest. With previous (limited number) of partners I have never lost my temper. My wife frustrates me with the seemingly random explosions of hate and bile, she drives me crazy with her conflicting orders of do this don't do that, that I've thrown things, broken things, slammed things. I've stood for hours, just stood, trying to workout where EXACTLY to stand so I won't get another telling. I'm exhausted, I'm scared, I'm sad. I have nowhere to run, no where to hide, and an undeniable feeling I'm making this all up in my head!

The_Dude

"Divorce/separation is out of the question, on numerous times I have been told that if we split up, she will take DS to the state where she grew up, 4+ hours away from where we live. This is extortion, is unfair and takes away any power I might have.  As a father in a mothers world, I have no leg to stand on if things go that way. For this reason, and she knows it, separation is NOT an option."

So she's fat, she doesn't want to have sex because you think she's fat (you're not delusional), she won't lose weight, and she's holding your child hostage.  Nice.
Call a lawyer and find out what exactly your rights are.  Don't do what 90% of the people who first appear here do and make assumptions based on what they think they know.  I don't know of any state in the union that would allow a woman to take a child out of state without consent.  But that's my own amateur assumption.  Call a lawyer.

The fact that she is explicitly threatening to take your son away from you raises this to a whole different level than basic relationship improvement.  You need to get a handle on that first.

Carbonated

The_Dude said:

The fact that she is explicitly threatening to take your son away from you raises this to a whole different level than basic relationship improvement.  You need to get a handle on that first.

Sorry, I should clear something up here that I didn't consider when I proof read what I typed when a little angry. My bad.

We've not talked about splitting up, and she hasn't announced "leave me and I'll move away."

It was more of an idle chat when we were discussing a couple we know who split up but still live together in the same house.
In their case they live in a two bed house, taking it in turns to sleep in the adult bedroom while the other adult sleeps in the same room as their son. If that doesn't make you want to take your child and run....

It's not however an area I wish to push in just in case... 

I do think our relationship is well within the bounds of fixing, and the biggest thing that need to be fixed is her weight. I also need to spot areas that I need to improve, as I have fallen in the trap of "she doesn't bother so why should I". I realise I need to get her to start saying "he bothers, so maybe I should will too."

SignorePillolaRossa

have you seen a lawyer to see if your assumptions about her moving with your son in the event of a separation are accurate?

i understand that losing regular access to your son is a fear that if made manifest would be a terrible loss so i think that having solid legal facts about custody enforcement would be important to nail down -- its easy to catastrophize worst case scenarios in this regard, but reality might not be as terrible as you fear

do you do awesome things for yourself like work out with weights, play sports with other men, have an awesome masculine hobby, etc?

what you're doing wrong might be being too nice and tolerant - you have tolerated her outbursts without holding her accountable to adult standards of behavior and self control ... and you have slipped in your own self control with the throwing/breaking/banging - so that needs to end once and for all ... you need to cultivate frame so that you stand wherever the hell you want and you dont care if there's a telling or not ... you control your emotions so the tired/sad/scared bit fades into nothing more than fuel to your fire to improve

are you injecting anything positive into the relationship? i know it is difficult to want to do so but you need to find a way to because unless you do so, you cant count on it happening and as leader you have to be able to count on it happening

dont get her pregnant again given the state of things

let her experience natural consequences of her unhealthfulness - take your son on hikes without her if she cant go because of her health ... family bike rides, same thing ... take leadership of the pantry and only allow healthful foods in the home, especially only healthy snacks/treats

at some point, she is going to be made to realize that the potential for life without you is real and that your expectations for a happy healthy married life includes sex ... lotsa guys have and love fat wives (especially wives working on losing the weight) ... at some point you will have to disabuse her of her mistaken notion that its ok for her to choose sexlessness in the marriage ... her being overweight is one thing, but her breaking the marriage compact is quite another and she must be held to account for it, especially from a position of dramatically lower SR

be the leader - don't fail shit tests - establish your frame of strength - get informed - be awesome

good luck

The_Dude

The issue still stands.  You are powerless to enforce any real boundary because she has some trump card that you won't even question. 
If you don't have any option other than to put up with whatever she does then you have no leverage.  She knows this.  You are going to have to remove that power. 

SignorePillolaRossa

the biggest thing to be fixed is not her weight - the biggest things to fixed are your choices in accepting her poor behaviours coupled with your own poor behaviours

you can change those - the power is in your hands

Carbonated

"have you seen a lawyer to see if your assumptions about her moving with your son in the event of a separation are accurate?"
No not yet, I'll take a look into it and see what I can find out from a lawyer.

I grew up without a dad around at all. And while if we split I'll be a part of my son's life, I still wouldn't be able to be the dad that is there to do all the mundane day in day out trudge that gets undervalued until it's too late. She knows all this, and I can't see how to remove that power she has.

"do you do awesome things for yourself like work out with weights, play sports with other men, have an awesome masculine hobby, etc?"
I've not really got a group of mates locally to me, but late last year I joined a men's club. We raise a bit of money for charity and do regular meet ups for events that I wouldn't usually do. The latest one, rock climbing, took me so far out my comfort zone I was dizzy before we even got there. I managed to do the hardest climbs they offer to newbies around 15-20 meters. Being the only one to manage it I was very proud of myself. I'm going to take my son to that one in a few weekends.
With organising events for the public, again growing myself here as this too is outside what I'd normally do, it takes up about 6 evenings a month, plus extra time to deal with emails and calls.

"what you're doing wrong might be being too nice and tolerant..."
Yeah I need to man up. I'll work on that.

"are you injecting anything positive into the relationship?"
No, nothing, nada. Partly as I've let it get so wonky I'm embarrassed to make the first move. She probably feels the same. Again, I'll man up!

"dont get her pregnant again given the state of things"
Would love to try

"let her experience natural consequences of her unhealthfulness...."
With a touch of humor here, I've tried that, but she like to sit with the food an wait for us to get back.

"at some point, she is going to be made to realize that the potential for life without you is real and that your expectations for a happy healthy married life includes sex ..."
I'd love a thinner wife, not a thin wife, just thinner. As long as she is healthy and it doesn't get in the way of our lives like it has for the last god knows how many years I'm happy.

What my intentions are going forward are:-
1. Not to mention the weight issue.
2. Start being a little affectionate, see what happens from that, but not to push for anything.
3. Get more sleep - I've been getting under 7 hours a night for quite a long time now.
4. Man up just a little bit each day.
5. Come up with a very subtle, under the radar, way to get a goal for weight reduction.

Angeline

The way to nuke the fear of losing your son is to go see a lawyer, and find out about going for full custody. Why not? Just thinking that way will empower you. 

If number 5 is for her weight loss, you will both know that it is a dodge to avoid her anger. Ducking her wrath will only increase her disrespect. You have to get into a position of power in the relationship where you can simply state "you need to do something about the weight" or be able to walk away. That solid finality will shine through in every action you take, every word. She won't be able to ignore it. So, keep MAPping.

If no. 5 is for you, carry on.

Carbonated

Hmm, it was for her weight loss.

I have been very direct that she needs to loose weight. To the point where I questioned if she was thinking enough about our son. This is what lead to the current sex drought. She knows my feelings, and there can be little doubt about the matter. I wasn't intending on bringing it up again unless I see no action being taken in the next month or so. She does find it embarrassing, and if I push her to far she'll drop into comfort eating mode again.

My idea for number 5 was to sign us up for a family outing which involves us either looking great, and/or some sort of physical activity. It was just a way to give her motivation and a date to work to. I wasn't even going to mention weight loss to her.

Saying that it'll be a target for me too to loose my softer more rounded areas!

I've got an appointment, free initial consultation, booked in for Thursday.

frillyfun

Stop chasing a woman that you can already outrun.   

You have to MAP to get yourself as attractive to her as humanly possible, and then make her chase you.  You are the only person you can change.

Start by being Awesome Dad.  Take your son places and do physically active, awesome things.  If it ever comes to a custody hearing show that lots of time with you is in the best interest of the child because you have a track record of doing great things together.

She's not a pleasant person to be around, so be around her a lot less.  Disengage if she starts telling you what to do, and how to do it.  Laugh at her silly demands.  Take control of the budget.

Devour every last bit of info on this site, and go see that lawyer.  You're not going to get any changes out of her as long as she thinks she holds all the power.

Carbonated

I had my free consultation, and it didn't really go all that well.
Should things go badly, and she does decide to up sticks an move the best I can do is make noise and be annoying. I could go to court but this very rarely makes a difference, and the cost is very high. Getting a single custody isn't feasible, but getting joint would be.
Even if things got very bad, I don't really see her taking it out on my son.

I've been making an effort using the exercise equipment we purchased for her 3 times each week. When I'm finished, I just say to her I've left it all on for you and set the TV up for your program. So far she's taken the hint as motivation and got on and used it. She has visibly lost weight already, and I'm keeping up the complements.

In even better news we've had sex more times in the last week than in the last few months. And each time she's made more and more of an effort. It's getting back to being great.

I wasn't expecting results from upping my game so quickly, but it's really starting to pay off. It's probably helped along by my wife's job having a little less stress at the moment. Life this week is drastically different to last week, and I'm going to make a really concerted effort to keep it running along at that level.

Carbonated

So, It's been a while since I last posted, so I thought an update on my situation was worth while. I spotted something in my behavior today that was a little disconcerting, but I'll get to that.

We continued to struggle finding issues and arguing. With me being a total dick TBH. At around January this year, it was becoming clear to me that things coming out my mouth during our arguments were not really coming from me. I felt like a bystander watching on as my body carried on with life without me.

I went to the docs as I really felt this couldn't continue, everything was being effected by it. After a large amount of questions I was diagnosed with depression. I've been put on medication, an SSRI, and it seems to be working. My sex drive is now non existent, and I don't care. My other medical problems cleared up pretty soon after the medication kicked in, so they were stress/depression related.

Since then I've lost a lot of weight, 11kg, and now my clothes are hanging off me. As alcohol is a depressant, and stops the pills working, I've almost stopped drinking. I think in the last six months I've had a glass of wine and that's it.

Since then life has been ups and downs, I still sometimes feel detached from life and just want to curl up into a ball, but that's to be expected.

Anyhow, I mentioned earlier that I noticed something about how I was behaving.
I've been good at not taking the bait, passing up the "opportunity" for an argument.

This morning she was late for work - she's always late for work - but she hadn't sent a birthday card to a friend so asked me to send a card from a website. I did so, but needed her to enter a payment method. ***Boom***. End of the world she was late didn't I know. Didn't rise to it (yay!), but this is the bit that worried me - I realized I was hiding behind furniture from her until she had gone.

Thinking back, I do this a lot. I wander the house finding things to do, that generally means just wandering the house looking busy with no purpose. I've lost hours at a time doing this.

I'm realizing I am actually scared of her on some subconscious level. Why I'm finding that funny, I don't really know.

I don't know where to go from here, I don't know where my depression starts and where relationship problems begin. I guess time will tell!

Mongrel

Depression meds frequently kill libido.

Feeling 'detached' is also pretty common on a lot of those meds.

From your post I think the first thing you need to work on is stop being afraid of your wife. Particularly, making her mad. So what if she gets mad over stupid shit? That is her failing, not yours. Her anger is power, power she shouldn't have (and secretly, power she really doesn't want). Shrug it off. Agree and amplify. James Bond smirk. Once you do it a few times it becomes pretty easy, and you won't believe the feeling of freedom you will have once you no longer care about childish outbursts from a grown woman.

Aside from that I think you really need to do more work on handling your depression. I'm no psychiatrist but what I've gleaned from reading is getting the meds right is often a long, arduous process with much experimentation. Tell your doctor about any and all downsides to what you are taking.

HildaCorners

Are you getting therapy for the depression?

Drugs can only improve your body's chemical balance ... but if you are depressed due to things in your life, your depression won't go away until you fix those problems.

Second, you need a MAP. Get a copy of Mindful Attraction Plan, write out a MAP for yourself (just you; you can't directly change your wife), and pick three things to work on this week. If you're battling depression, pick at least 2 "easy wins", things you know you can and will do. You need a success track record.

Carbonated

Sad isn't it, a grown man scared of his wife! It's the outburst I don't cope well with. My "pot of I can brush this shit off into" just ain't big enough to contain it all.

I need to work on getting a bigger pot. I think addressing the depression, is the number one way of getting that to grow.

I'll man up tonight and let her know how the outbursts don't help my recovery. I shouldn't need a bigger pot for this kind of thing.

I'm not getting therapy, maybe something to consider if I can't pull my own socks up.

I can't think of anything in my life that is causing me depression, life is actually pretty good, nothing is going wrong right now. I figure I'm just in a rut that i just need to climb out of. I just need a bit more strength to do it.

I'll get my copy of the book back out, read it, and get back into it. I like the sound of easy wins!

Thanks for listening!

CountryDude

I don't exactly have the expertise to give good advice to you in your situation, but what I will say is: try to make her feel sexy.

You see, there are big women out there who ooze sexuality. They think they are sexy. They believe they are sexy. And to many guys they actually are sexy (maybe not to the morbidly obese stage...but you get what i'm saying).

Then there are big women out there who feel disgusting. Somewhere in their life they have recieved that message. Maybe they got picked on at school. Or maybe pop culture made them feel that way.

Your wife won't let you see her naked. She says you think she is fat.

So, from now on I would try to avoid the whole, "you should go to the gym cos you are fat thing" at all costs. It ain't gonna help. And it ain't captaining up properly.

How about......"I wanna play badminton...let's go".

I don't think you will get anywhere with being direct on this one.

Paladin

Man, after reading all the previous post and the update, it doesnt sound like your SR is going up. It sounds like its going down. Depression is tough. It runs in my family so i totally get the feeling. I see my dad go through this and its terrible. Godspeed they get your meds right. I def. would go to therapy. 
Ill chime in on my thoughts with the wife. You hiding from her just isnt healthy. You not having sex for months or feeling bad for having it, isnt healthy. Its bringing you down. So work on yourself. Right now, from the sound of things, your wife still isnt doing anything about anything. I was in a previous marriage and realized how deep in a funk i was DURING that marriage, even though i thought it was perfect and all. Looking back, i was miserable. Work on you, as i am , and set tiny goals weekly to attack. Attack those as if your life depends on it and it will get better. WE have to retrain our mind to be positive.

Pen_and_Sword

1. If you haven't read the MMSL Primer and the MAP, do it.
2. If you have, call @Athol_Kay.
3. See numbers 1 & 2.

Tennee

Carbonated said:

Sad isn't it, a grown man scared of his wife! It's the outburst I don't cope well with. My "pot of I can brush this shit off into" just ain't big enough to contain it all.

I need to work on getting a bigger pot.

No, you need to throw the pot away entirely.  Don't compartmentalize her 'outbursts' as negative energy that's somehow your burden to store.   Bullshit.  The needed paradigm shift is:  she can outburst all she wants, IDGAF.  And disrespectful crap gets shut down. 

"This morning she was late for work - she's always late for work - but she hadn't sent a birthday card to a friend so asked me to send a card from a website. I did so, but needed her to enter a payment method. ***Boom***. End of the world she was late didn't I know. Didn't rise to it (yay!), but this is the bit that worried me - I realized I was hiding behind furniture from her until she had gone."

My response here at *Boom* would have been exactly this:

/clicks mouse, closes browser, "Send it yourself.  Have a nice day at work"  /exeunt

I'd have left her howling alone in the office,  that's entirely her choice. 

Look man, the mental health thing is well beyond my paygrade, so I have no advice for you on that.  You will have to upset the applecart.  Its simply a part of the process for success.  You have to shift the paradigm from hiding behind the furniture to one of confidence in the face of nonsense.   You may get all sorts of escalation from this - so what.   Shut down outright disrespect.  A&A silly nonsense. 

You're going to have to figure out how you get going down that path. 

DaddyOh

The card incident is pretty pathetic. Agree with others, point to mouse and say "Your friend, you do it".

Having a feeling your wife could've set aside 5 min from SnapChatting, facebooking, DVRing and done it herself the previous night.