Where to start?

forestleafforestleaf At the farmGold Women Posts: 1,703
We have been married for more than ten years and have three children.  My husband started this program a few years ago and the problems we had then seemed to improve dramatically.  He works out so much more, looks better, dresses better, takes care of himself more.  He has also taken more of a dominance role in our household.  I wouldn't say either of us were dominant before, but now he seems to assert it more, and it rubs me the wrong way.  What he says, goes.  He has always been a nice guy, but it seems that he doesn't care if that changes.  He has also been obsessed with sex since our relationship began improving, and now sexual issues are our major problem.  We get in fights about mostly sex all the time.  He wants sex more than I do, and gets angry if I am tired.  I really do love him and I am very much attracted to him.  However, after he reads on this website and others, he seems to think if I am too tired to have sex this means I am no longer attracted to him.  About three weeks ago, I was let go from my job.  I am a professional and have a lot of degrees, and it was and has been a major blow to me emotionally.  We cannot afford for me to not work.  That evening and the next night I turned him down for sex.  He was angry at me for eight days, and gave me the silent treatment for eight days after I was let go.  At the time that I needed him most, he wasn't there for me.  And he seems to justify it because he says I am not being responsive to his needs.  I enjoy sex, but there are other things on my mind sometimes.  I hate that sex is such a big deal.  Like I said, I enjoy it when I have energy and am feeling good and am feeling loved, but it's not something that I can force myself to do when I am exhausted and have just put the kids to bed and want to go to sleep myself.  I don't mind doing it a couple times a week, but he seems to want it all the time, and if I don't then I get in trouble.  I hate that.  I don't know where to go with all this.  Somehow I am the bad person for turning him down.  He doesn't seem to really be concerned about what I am going through emotionally with my career and my job that will be gone soon.  We did counseling a few years ago before he started MMSL and it helped some.  We are about to begin it again, although I don't know how much either of us thinks it will help.  I don't know where to start!
Truman
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Comments

  • SerenitySerenity Senior Moderator** Posts: 11,358
    Hi @forestleaf and welcome. 

    I am so sorry to hear of the job loss. That's a tough blow.

    It's best to start with a Triage. It gives us an idea of your background and helps you get information better tailored to your situation.

    The link is here. You can answer each question right here in your Intro thread. If you go over the character limit, simply start a new comment. 
    SignorePillolaRossaHildaCornersSmashmaster
  • forestleafforestleaf At the farmGold Women Posts: 1,703
    edited June 2015

    Here are my answers to the TRIAGE.  I am 39 and my husband is 41.  We were married in 2004.  We have been together since 1996.  We have three children, ages 9, 6, and 2.  I think we're both pretty good-looking.  I am 5-4 and 140 lbs and he is 6-5 and 190 lbs.  We are both healthy and he has had a vasectomy.  He works out a lot and I think this might be partially why his sex drive is so high.  I always considered myself a pretty sexual person, but when he is angry about sex issues, he makes me feel like a person with low sex drive (which I never thought of myself that way before).  I have a professional degree and am very marketable job-wise, but unfortunately live in a town that is saturated with professionals that have my degree. We don't have a lot of debt, just his student loans and our mortgages (two homes, one we live in and the other we rent).  Neither of us is obese.  I don't think either of us have any "deal-breaker" things such as major illnesses, inability to hold jobs, etc.  He is employed and has gained ranks in his field such that he is very well-respected, and this seems to have bolstered his sense of self and he feels very good about it.  (Good for him).  I have always been top of my class, major performer, I supported us both when we were starting out and he had troubles finishing his grad work.  Since I've been working part time for the past bunch of years staying home with the kids part-time, my "rank" professionally has kind of fallen down, while his has risen.   

    Neither of us has cheated on the other, although I was a cheater multiple times before I ever started dating him (but that was ages ago).  I am not tempted to cheat now.  There is no physical violence.  I can't think of any major glaring situations.  You might consider it small, but a few weeks ago he refused to make me dinner and cooked burgers for himself and all three kids for dinner because he was angry I didn't say "please" via text when I asked him to go home and make dinner via text and I was going to pick up our daughter.  This was a few days after I lost my job and two of the kids offered me their dinners since he was being such a jerk.  I suppose that's small potatoes, but it hurt my feelings.  Whenever we get in a fight, he usually says mean things that really offend me, and I have to admit I give him the silent treatment usually for days because I can't stand to talk to him, and he forgets the issue right away and acts like nothing has happened.  He really believes that our fights only occur in the two weeks prior to me getting my period and never in the two weeks after I get it (and it makes me REALLY angry that he blames it all on my hormonal cycles). 

     We have sex probably twice a week if all is well.  He would like to do it every night I think.  We recently went on a vacation, just him and me, for four days, and we had sex twice daily.  Everything was GREAT.  Then on the drive home we got in a fight because I asked him about how he reads all these self-help books, and he began the thing where he blames all our problems on my hormonal cycles.  I had to pull the car over and tell him how DEEPLY OFFENDED I was, but he persisted in emphasizing his belief in this hormone thing.  Ugh.  

    I don't think he is having an affair.  I wondered a few years ago because I would find things like seeing he had clicked on relationship seeking sites on Craigslist, etc, but I really have no evidence otherwise.  If you asked him, he would generally say that we have actual sex often enough, but that I am not affectionate enough.  He says I have sex with him because I feel obligated, and he doesn't feel desired.  He does look at porn sometimes,  although I don't think he does it tons.  We look at it together sometimes, rarely.

    I don't remember what sex was like at the start of our relationship.  Seems we probably did it a lot, I guess, sorry I don't remember.  I'm sure our sex lessened after the birth of our children.  I had a bad tear after the birth of our first and so sex was painful for a year or so, but it's ok now.

    Elephant in the room?  I can't think of anything.  I am just a tired working mom of three.  He wants more affection and sex from me than I have energy for.  I feel like our recent vacation where we had sex twice daily is evidence for the fact that I could do it that often if I had energy and didn't have to take care of three children and my job and my household all the time!  I like having sex, but I feel like it's just one more obligation at the end of an exhausting day.  Just one more person I have to satisfy.

    Leader in our marriage?  Might be him.  I don't know.  I've always had a passive-aggressive nature, I think, and the aggressive certainly comes out sometimes.  I ask him lots of questions, seem to defer to him, and yet if I feel like I'm being stomped on I start to rage and yell.  I can't stand someone who wants to dominate me.  And that's where he seems to be headed.

    When was our marriage going well?  Maybe during the four days of our recent vacation?  Maybe when we first got married?  Not sure. 
    FinestGun
  • markymapomarkymapo Silver Member Posts: 542
    Don't know if your triage is done but I think I read he has read MMSLP. If so it sounds like he's overdoing the Alpha and not enough beta. 

    I understand the alone vaca also. To leave the kids and be free of worries from job and home makes it easy for both to enjoy. 

    But then there's the time when you have to go back. 

    He failed on the beta when you lost your job. He's way to focused on the sex or rejection of sex and that's why he was pouty for that long. He's failing on OI. 
    Smashmaster
  • AngelineAngeline planting seedsCategory Moderator** Posts: 14,500
    Welcome @forestleaf! Glad you're here. 
    "Speak your truth." - Scarlet
    Remember to play!
    Do the right thing, whether anyone is watching or not.
    Be married, until you are not.

    Email address: angeline.greenwood@att.net
    Smashmaster
  • TenneeTennee Next Stop: AwesomevilleSilver Member Posts: 5,963
    "That evening and the next night I turned him down for sex.  He was angry at me for eight days, and gave me the silent treatment for eight days after I was let go.  At the time that I needed him most, he wasn't there for me.  And he seems to justify it because he says I am not being responsive to his needs.  I enjoy sex, but there are other things on my mind sometimes.  I hate that sex is such a big deal."

    Welcome @forestleaf .   The above is terrible OI, followed by terrible P/A behavior on his part.  I'm surprised.  Or maybe not...

    You will find help here.  Welcome aboard.

    "Fall down seven times, stand up eight"  Japanese Proverb

    How will you live well today?
    [Deleted User]WinterRorschachSmashmaster
  • TenneeTennee Next Stop: AwesomevilleSilver Member Posts: 5,963
    @Chief_TC ;  Well said Sir.  Ditto to the 'under the radar'. 
    "Fall down seven times, stand up eight"  Japanese Proverb

    How will you live well today?
  • Mark72Mark72 OhioSilver Member Posts: 2,007
    Do you think he might be here under a new name? He's not here anymore

    Hier stehe ich. Ich kann nicht Anders tun. Gott hilfe mir. Amen. - Martin Luther
    In faith there is enough light for those who want to believe and enough shadows to blind those who don't. - Pascal

    My journey

  • TenneeTennee Next Stop: AwesomevilleSilver Member Posts: 5,963
    @Chief_TC said:
    He's not here under any name @Mark72. He had a falling out.
    I would strongly suspect lurkage.  @forestleaf ; You may want to consider editing out some info here - a mod can do it.  Your call, but I agree with the Chief, I think you'd get a lot by participating here quietly. 
    "Fall down seven times, stand up eight"  Japanese Proverb

    How will you live well today?
    Winter[Deleted User]HildaCornersshibari
  • MongrelMongrel Pennsylvania, USASilver Member Posts: 1,869
    Your H is failing badly at two things:

    a) poor beta/way too much alpha

    b) not maintaining frame

    "b" is pretty much MMSL 101.  It sounds like he has decided he is a self-proclaimed expert on all things MMSL when in actuality he is picking and choosing what to use. He is doing it WAY wrong and everyone on here will tell him so. I wonder if simply saying "You're not maintaining frame" every time he gets annoyed/pouty when you turn him down would shake him back to reality?

    I'm very curious as to why he got booted/left the forum. Could be something quite telling there...
    "If you're not happy with your life, you've got to identify why, and do something about it." -- Mandrill
    "Treating her like a princess didn't make me a prince, it made me a servant."
    Link to triage questions:  http://marriedmansexlife.com/triage-your-relationship-and-the-911-er-category/


  • OneEyedDrunkOneEyedDrunk Out West Silver Member Posts: 1,808
    I would have to edit out most of my post to make it so he doesn't know it's me.  However, he and I had a discussion tonight.  I asked him about his history on this forum and without him knowing what I know, he answered all my questions honestly.  He really is an honest person, for the most part.  After a while I let him know I joined today and posted this post, and let him know I didn't want him to read.  He said he would not, and I believe him.  He's not the kind of guy that would violate that.  I know it may be hard to believe.

    I think he is committed to me too.  I know he is.  But while we've had a few years of a really good relationship, now things are getting worse and worse, and we're coming apart.  Maybe it's all my fault because my self-esteem seems to be suffering based on my professional issues.  I don't know.  I talked to him about the Alpha/Beta thing, and he thinks that he was too Beta for too long, and that that is why we had so many issues originally, maybe because he thought I was walking all over him.  Like he was the nice guy for too long. 
    That can definitely happen to us guys. I was a nice guy, and my wife walked all over me for 12-13 years. I got nothing I wanted out of the marriage. It brought me here. It also improved my marriage tremendously. I have read a ton of posts from the Wolf. I know he definitely loves you. 

    I see see this as an opportunity to learn and grow. This site is about us improving ourselves, and ultimately getting what we want out of our marriages. Welcome to the forum. 
    oneeyeddrunk.weebly.com
    Smashmaster
  • Frank_LondonFrank_London in transitSilver Member Posts: 1,853
    We have been married for more than ten years and have three children.  My husband started this program a few years ago and the problems we had then seemed to improve dramatically.  He works out so much more, looks better, dresses better, takes care of himself more. 
    That's great news.
    I'm glad to hear that your husband's efforts solved your marital problems at the time. And it's heartening that MMSL helped him do that.
    We get in fights about mostly sex all the time.  He wants sex more than I do, and gets angry if I am tired.
    What you're describing is not in keeping with MMSL principles. If you turn him down for sex, he's supposed to take it on the chin and not get upset. We call it "OI" (outcome independence). Also, it is a well known principle that arguments about sex never lead to improvements in sex life. He should know that.
    Smashmaster
  • forestleafforestleaf At the farmGold Women Posts: 1,703
    I am comforted by the fact that some of you know/have known my husband so well.  It is, of course, a little disconcerting to know that all of you have been hearing the story so one-sided for so long.  I don't think of myself as having committed some terrible relationship errors, and don't think I have been terribly mean to him, so I can't think of what I could have done to make him feel that our relationship needs such major help.  Things are not good now, but everytime it gets bad like this, it feels like it is in response to him being upset about the sex issue. 

    I was always the "crazy one" in college and before; I had quite a few more sexual partners than he did (although still fewer than 10!); I was a very sexual person.  When he and I got together the first time I was still dating my ex-boyfriend and he (my now husband) and I had sex, but it was not a one-night stand.  I initiated the encounter.  After that we fell into being together (in a wonderful way), and my ex and I broke up.  I've never cheated since.  I always considered myself sexual.  We've had three kids since, and I would be happy now to have sex a couple times a week.  It's true when we are doing ok he will initiate a lot, most nights, and I do turn him down a lot because I'm exhausted.  He says it's not all about the sex.  But sex is how he begins to feel close to me, and sex is what I do after the culmination of emotions/actions that have shown love.
    OneEyedDrunk said:I have read a ton of posts from the Wolf. I know he definitely loves you. 

    I see see this as an opportunity to learn and grow. This site is about us improving ourselves, and ultimately getting what we want out of our marriages.
    I love hearing that he has been "faithful" to me on this forum.  I know he loves me, but I love to hear it.  I really do want to learn and grow.  I have so much I need to figure out right now, career issues being a big thing, parenting issues being a big thing, but also my relationship with him.  He and I have been doing so well these past few years I hate that we're having problems again.
    Mongrel said:

    I'm very curious as to why he got booted/left the forum. Could be something quite telling there...
    I think that those of you who know him from this forum need to ask yourselves if he ever said anything that was so terrible that you remember, or if he seemed trustworthy and genuine.  I don't think we can discuss why he left.  But I don't believe he did anything terrible.

    Thanks y'all for being here.  :)
    [Deleted User]frillyfunWinter
  • markymapomarkymapo Silver Member Posts: 542
    edited May 2015
    I know your not a guy so I'll explain a little of what I think is going on. 

    Guys show emotion and closeness with sex. It's how we are wired. You turning him down is sort of saying you don't want his emotion or closeness. 

    Where from what I read women like emotion/closeness with talking. Cuddling, feeling safe. 

    My wife one time told me I need to talk more. I said ok, and for the next few days we talked more at night but her idea of taking was all women things. Uhggg. I don't want to discuss Pinterest ideas. Les talk about yard work, shooting range, how fast I can get you undressed. 

    Men and women are so different. We just need to find a common middle. 

    I bet your husband is a different guy after you two have great sex. He's happy and feels closer to you. 

    But he does need to fix the OI. That's key. 
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