Where to start?

John3

Welcome @forestleaf.  We all make all sorts of relationship errors.  MMSL has given me a framework of how things can operate, so I make fewer mistakes, and recognize (and correct) the mistakes I do make.  I can only speak for myself, but it's been a long learning curve.  There are a lot of moving parts to a relationship, and when you focus on one area, it's easy to have problems show up in another.  It is also really tempting to "cherry pick" elements of MMSL because those elements are easy or they reinforce me being right and so on.  If you add in other elements of the "manosphere" it's easy to get sidetracked by that as well. 

So the forum really helps.  It tends to keep the whole framework in front of me, and when I skip over some part, there is always someone to pull me back.  Not always fun, but really helpful.  I think you'll find the insight here that you are looking for.

SignorePillolaRossa

welcome @forestleaf ;


i hope this forum helps you in your marriage

have you swallowed the (bitter) red pill yet?
or are you still living with blue pill expectations of your life?

when we know your answer to this, we'll know what you are ready to actually hear

no sense in throwing concepts at you if you aren't ready to incorporate them

i also think we'll have to remember the adage that there are 3 sides to every story ... his truth, her truth, and the truth

Scarlet

Please don't worry about the impression people have of you - I don't recall ever thinking of you negatively.  To be honest, from how your husband described you, I think I would really like you IRL.  We could compare absurd animal rescue stories!  

Know that you are welcome here.  There are plenty of other women, and most everyone has been through the relationship ringer.  Someone recommended reading "The Mindful Attraction Plan" and I'll echo that.  The site moved beyond "Red Pill/Blue Pill" mentality several years ago, and now the focus is on self-improvement and positive energy.  

Please do something positive for yourself today - that is where it all starts.  

SignorePillolaRossa

Scarlet said:

 The site moved beyond "Red Pill/Blue Pill" mentality several years ago, and now the focus is on self-improvement and positive energy.  

"moved beyond"? sure

but, call it what you like, it is still reality

to me, ultimately, red pill / blue pill ultimately boils down to 'choices have consequences and we can either see em (red) or live in delusion (blue)' - choosing to prioritize things that leave her exhausted and turning down her husband a lot (her words)  has consequences to their marriage - she is not entitled to her husband just happily accepting that she cut off sex

it means understanding that his lizard doesnt care if she has a job or not, she is still his wife and sex is part of marriage ... he is now the sole bread winner - its fallacy to think that it is long term viable that he will simply happily provide beta bux if he isnt getting the alpha fucks ... she "hates that sex is a big deal" - well, hate all you want but red pill lets us know that it pretty much is a big deal, whether you like it or not

look, i would not be surprised one iota to learn that the wolf isnt attending to a balance between leadership and comfort ... but she is fighting a fools battle if she thinks cutting him off is gonna make their marriage better

it sounds like she is leaning on the 'i gave you sex two times a day for four days a little while ago and that should hold you over' a little too heavily - she doesnt describe what she is doing to inject positivity into the relationship ... withholding sex isnt gonna get her a new job any sooner

she admits to giving him the silent treatment, she admits to raging and yelling, she admits to being passive aggressive, she admits to wrapping her self esteem in her professional life ... if this is about self improvement, then she can start with those - she can only fix her side of it .. if he doesnt get with the program, then she can run the phases and leave him if he wont address the ultimatum

frillyfun

SPR- I respect you quite a bit, but I think you might be projecting here.

He's not being at all attractive at the moment.  She's just lost her job, and is reeling from that- and he's the one who gave her the silent treatment for 8 days.  He's close to creating a critical moment of neglect.  And while we're at it- why hasn't the Captain come up with an emergency fund so that they're not left reeling from a job loss?

This can't be about score keeping.  Marriages are long.  Sometimes you're the rock, and sometimes you need to lean on the rock.  It happens.  

The general rule of thumb is have sex if you want to have sex, and don't if you don't.  It's probably going to take a little while to find another job, or start your own practice- so it's a great time to work on your personal development, and the marriage too.  The nice thing about having 2 people running a MAP is that you can create some serious momentum fairly quickly, and get to the sweet spot faster.  

It sounds like you both need help maintaining frame, and communicating better.  Disengage when he starts being aggressive, or saying truly hurtful things.  Nothing good comes from those arguments.

It's great that you're here, and I'm excited for your future.

forestleaf

SignorePillolaRossa said:

it means understanding that his lizard doesnt care if she has a job or not, she is still his wife and sex is part of marriage ... he is now the sole bread winner - its fallacy to think that it is long term viable that he will simply happily provide beta bux if he isnt getting the alpha fucks ... she "hates that sex is a big deal" - well, hate all you want but red pill lets us know that it pretty much is a big deal, whether you like it or not

look, i would not be surprised one iota to learn that the wolf isnt attending to a balance between leadership and comfort ... but she is fighting a fools battle if she thinks cutting him off is gonna make their marriage better

it sounds like she is leaning on the 'i gave you sex two times a day for four days a little while ago and that should hold you over' a little too heavily - she doesnt describe what she is doing to inject positivity into the relationship ... withholding sex isnt gonna get her a new job any sooner

she admits to giving him the silent treatment, she admits to raging and yelling, she admits to being passive aggressive, she admits to wrapping her self esteem in her professional life ... if this is about self improvement, then she can start with those - she can only fix her side of it .. if he doesnt get with the program, then she can run the phases and leave him if he wont address the ultimatum

Wow.  This attitude about the "lizard" is exactly what turns women off about sex.  This really does sound like entitlement.  If he is earning the money, then I need to bend over???  I definitely have not been "withholding sex" purposefully.  When my husband is acting upset because I turned him down the night before, or if we aren't getting along because he said something about my hormonal cycles being the driver of our arguments, then I don't feel in the mood for it, I don't feel affectionate, and I don't want to have sex.  There is no purposeful denial of sex on my part (like I'm telling myself to withhold no matter what).  Again, sex for me is the culmination of good feelings between us, not the initiation of them.  I can't be intimate with someone who insulted me earlier in the day. 

"fallacy to think that it is long term viable that he will simply happily provide beta bux if he isnt getting the alpha fucks ..."  Are you for real?  Am I supposed to actually address this?  So if I lose my job and cannot continue to contribute financially to the family I need to bang him more frequently and with more fervor?  Based upon what I've been reading from the others, I'm going to guess that most people on this forum disagree with your sentiment.

"it sounds like she is leaning on the 'i gave you sex two times a day for four days a little while ago and that should hold you over' a little too heavily"  My point here was not that he should be good for a while because we had sex that often when we were on vacation.  He tells me that I must not be attracted to him or maybe falling out of love with him if I don't want sex so often; however, I point out that when the stresses of work and children are gone, I am all over him.  So it's not about falling out of love or not being attracted, it's about being pulled in ten different directions and thus being too exhausted for sex most evenings. 

How long have you been on the forum and do you find it helpful for your marriage?  I am taken aback by this post.

BTW, yes I just got the MAP book and plan to read it, and yes I have plans for self-improvement which will be a long road, as I'm sure it would be for most people.  No one's perfect.

Leatherleaf

I had to sign in to double awesome your post SPR. 

Also to say that I interact with TheWolf on another site.  We can't fix him.  From what I've read of him he's doing all the right things.  And not OI?  Sure.  But he claims he is being turned down more than 50% of the time.  And with inclusion of statements like "I'd rather surf facebook than have sex" and "God, having sex with you is such a chore".  That first one would be more than enough to warrant divorce in my house.  My wife wouldn't even joke about it.   

I have no doubt that it looks like low attraction or hormones.

OI is easy when turned down 25% of the time.  But 8 years of sex on a drip and then after three years of improvement this.  He's getting hit on and propositioned all day and then he comes home to a wife that turns him down. 

Hell I'd bang the wolf and I'm a dude and completely hetero.  LOL

I understand you are tired with the kids.  I have two and it never ends.  BUT my wife lets me know how I can help her with the kids.  And yes she says please.  You complained about needing him after you were let go.  He's needed some affection for years.  You needed support for a week.  Can you see where there might be some resentment?

Leatherleaf

@Chief_TC Fuck off.

Anyone else? -Athol

HildaCorners

Welcome!

As FrillyFun said, your husband is failing on the relationship comfort.

I'm sorry to hear you lost your job ... from the way he talked about it, your work is very important to you. [The woman who punches horses] Your H should have upped the comfort and supported you for at least a couple days while you got over the shock and formed a job hunting strategy.

Do read the MAP book. There's a lot of good advice in there for helping you get your own life together, apart from your relationship. And there are things to work on (we all have them) -- one I noticed in your triage is your passive-aggressive streak.

One thing that might help ... are you familiar with Athol's Green-Yellow-Red system for sexual interest? He has a blog post about it, and I know your H is familiar with the system. If you have absolutely no interest in sex, tell him "I'm Red ... that's a hard no." Then drop the subject for the rest of the day.

If he tries to initiate on a hard no, I'm guessing at least a dozen guys here will go after him  

JellyBean

When your husband was active on this forum he had a pattern of starting a thread for discussion about a certain issue or problem. When people would suggest ways to address the issue that required him actually going through the steps that Bossman AK outlines, his usual response was along the lines of, "well yes I see your point but you don't understand it fully. Here, let me elucidate for you..." 

That was my impression of him. Do you think this is a good way to describe the way he typically acts with you?

I am so sorry you lost your job. That must be quite a blow. It seems that you getting back to work will be a big part of your MAP as you move forward. 

I look forward to reading more from you. I have often wondered about your side of things. 

Scarlet

I'm sorry about the attacking posts.  However vocal some negative posters may be, they do NOT represent the whole or the message of this site.  

CartB4Horse

You are in a great place.  Many of us here have had bad OI and raging Passive Aggressiveness like your husband.  Some of us even found a way to improve on these issues and can lend some insight into why we were that way.

Remember though, the only one you can improve is yourself.  And with that improvement comes options, better treatment from everyone in your life including your spouse.

Welcome.

forestleaf

Sorry to be boring, but my husband knows everything about my sexual history.  He knew I was cheating when I had sex with him the first time, and let me initiate everything.  My ex was a major Beta and that's why I broke up with him.  My husband was a little Beta at the beginning but never as bad as my ex.  And he knows about how my ex was.  We've talked about this stuff.  Why does it matter whether he knows about their alpha/beta status? 

Here's a characteristic of mine: I don't take criticism well.  Hence I'm still reeling over the two negative posters here.  All that they said resembles some things my husband has said at his worst moments (but that don't represent his views most of the time).  I hate to think there are others out there who concur with these medieval opinions of women's roles.

Serenity

Stop worrying about what people think. You need to develop Outcome Independence as well. The key to running your Map is that you run your Map for you. You are trying to be the best version of yourself.

I think once you read the MAP book, your path forward will become clearer to you.

forestleaf said:

Here's a characteristic of mine: I don't take criticism well.  Hence I'm still reeling over the two negative posters here.  All that they said resembles some things my husband has said at his worst moments (but that don't represent his views most of the time).  I hate to think there are others out there who concur with these medieval opinions of women's roles.

thisisjen

I'm glad you're here @forestleaf .....From your husband's post I always felt that you and I were alike.

Howard

@forestleaf ;
You've come here with honest intentions. Try to look beyond any criticism which seems personal. There's way too much sincere and objective support available, from many really smart people, to let that hold you back. 

Serenity

That was one of my biggest take-aways from the MAP book. I had always thought of myself as the victim, but realized that I had been a vampire as well. That caused me to look at our relationship in a whole new light.

Sorry for the spoilers, @forestleaf.   

Ms_Fit said:

The MAP book talks about the victim and vampire roles.  The biggest eye opener to me was when I realized that I played both parts (as did my husband). It wasn't he's the vampire and I'm the victim (or vise versa).  We had each contributed to both roles. 

RedPillNewb

I signed back up after being away for a long time just for this thread.  I remember when your husband joined the forum and I corresponded with him fairly extensively by PM and by email.  I have one question and one piece of advice.

Are you hear at your husband's urging or insistence?  I ask because my advice is this: either sign up for Gold and seek advice from Gold members (especially in the Women's Only section) or simply leave the forum.

There is no doubt that the forum was a huge benefit to my marriage.  Just the other day MrsRPN commented that we are "addicted to one another."  But there is also no question that, after a certain point, the forum became a net negative for me, and I have seen that effect on other posters as well.  I had to leave and focus on myself, and most especially on my attitude towards life, in order to continue to make progress.

Knowing what I know of many of the long-term members here and their experiences, I am sure that the MAP book will be helpful to you.  I am also sure that there are a number of people (including Athol and Serenity, if you were to go for paid coaching) who can give you good advice.  But I am equally convinced that open forum posting will be at best non-beneficial, and at worse a drag on your self-improvement.

Take it from your fellow INTP.   

forestleaf

RedPillNewb said:

Are you hear at your husband's urging or insistence?  I ask because my advice is this: either sign up for Gold and seek advice from Gold members (especially in the Women's Only section) or simply leave the forum.

He asked me numerous times years ago if I would join, and it really pissed me off at the time.  I don't remember why.  I felt controlled, I think, and I felt like I would be joining a group of people who were automatically on his side (which I understand is not true).  But no, we haven't talked about MMSL in months.  I used to feel like he was on it too much. But I had no idea he was banned until yesterday.  I don't think with my job loss (which my job isn't over until mid-June, BTW) that we can afford an extra like Gold.  But I understand the intention of your suggestion.  It sounds like I need to work a little harder to shrug off the unhelpful posts.

forestleaf

generalzod said:

forestleaf said:

Why does it matter whether he knows about their alpha/beta status? 

It wasn't meant as a criticism of you at all.  I'd really like to see you both be happy.

Everyone has made the assumption that he's a bit off track, and maybe he is.  But he's very smart.  He's hyperaware of his alpha and beta behaviors.  If his OI sucks, he knows his OI sucks.

So I'm trying to understand why he's withdrawing beta and ramping up alpha.  That was the intent of the question.  Because the alternative explanation is spelled out In Phase 5 in the MAP book.

We can't control your husband's actions.  But we shouldn't ignore them either.

This is exactly what I want to know.  Why is he acting so dominant?  I really think the working out has been great for him, but it REALLY has ramped up his sexual desire as well as overall masculinity and other testosterone-driven traits.  That's what I blame it on.

Ms_Fit said:

Do you feel your husband has any basis for his criticisms of your relationship?  And vise versa?  

What are your thoughts on what a healthy marriage looks like?  Have you shared these with your husband?  How can each person (or rather you since you can't change your partner) contribute to making that relationship a reality?

I think he does have a basis for his criticisms; he's not crazy.  Interestingly his portrayal of advice from MMSL as well as my browsing reddit have both opened my eyes to the world of men and how important sex is to them.  Women desire sex, but not nearly to the degree as men, it seems.  I love flirting with him when we comes home in the evening; I love the kissing or ass-grabbing or deep kisses when the kids aren't looking.  It's true that by the time we get the kids into bed and finally get the cats fed and the kitchen clean and probably the laundry folded and all else, I am exhausted.  And it seems if we're not lights out by 8:45 I can't fall asleep properly and then it's a crap night for sleeping.  And some of those nights he'll get up because he can't sleep so he can surf the internet or do other things since we're not having sex.  I would love to have more time and energy for sex.  But for me, sex is what I do when I am horny, not what I do when I want to feel closer to him.  Deep kisses or hugs go farther to make me feel closer to him than sex.

JellyBean said:

When your husband was active on this forum he had a pattern of starting a thread for discussion about a certain issue or problem. When people would suggest ways to address the issue that required him actually going through the steps that Bossman AK outlines, his usual response was along the lines of, "well yes I see your point but you don't understand it fully. Here, let me elucidate for you..." 

That was my impression of him. Do you think this is a good way to describe the way he typically acts with you?

Can you elucidate the question?  I think you are asking whether he responds to criticism well?  He is very smart, and we've been in therapy before and more than one therapist has said he or she has a hard time keeping up with us but that we're interesting to watch.  He likes to teach, and not in a patronizing way, so maybe that is what you are referring to.