Wife looking for new job - I need a reality check on my attitude about this

FromMars · June 2015

BACKGROUND:

Married 12 years, both in our mid 30s, two young kids. Triage and other details are posted elsewhere here.

I've been a great provider so far in our marriage. I own a business. My income varies based on what the business earns each year. Over the past 10 years or so it's varied between high end 6 figures down to low-mid 6 figures. The trajectory over the past couple of years has been down, but we're still doing more than fine. Zero debt, 2 houses completely paid off, plenty of money in the bank, overfunded retirement accounts.

Our expenses are still more than covered by my new (lower) amount of income. We've always lived well below our means and my income could drop a lot more before we'd outspend what i make in a year. Even if that happened (which is very unlikely) we could live for years and years with NO income from our savings before we even got close to being in trouble. And even in that case "trouble" would start out as selling our 2nd (vacation) home.

I'm working on several ways to make the business more profitable again and am confident that I'll double my income in the next 6-12 months, possibly much more than double. As detailed in another thread, my wife seems to think we're on the verge of financial ruin, no matter how much I go over the numbers with her and show her that we're fine.

NEW DEVELOPMENT:

The latest development is that she's now decided she needs to get a job to help out with our bills. She's been a stay at home mom since our kids were born and has always indicated that she's very happy doing that. Over the years she's repeatedly thanked me out of the blue for working so hard so that she can stay home with the kids and be a full time mother to them. She's done an amazing job keeping house and taking care of the kids, leaving me free to work hard on my business, earn lots of money, and let all 4 of us spend family time together in the evenings and on weekends. She's always seemed completely content with this. Until now...

The job she's looking at would require 2 more years of college, and then would take up 40+ hours of work a week for her to earn around $30,000 per year. I'm fairly sure that the disruptions to my business caused by me having to take the kids to and from school and pick up the slack on the household chores that she no longer has time for will cost our business more than $30,000 annually.

I've made it very clear to her that I have no problem at all with her getting a job if she's doing it because it's something she *wants* to do for personal fulfillment. If that's the case I fully support her and our family will make whatever adjustments we have to in order to make that happen. What I cannot support is her taking on a job that she doesn't want simply because she thinks we need more money. I strongly suspect that she's only doing this because she thinks we need to earn more money because of our so-called financial problems.

I've said all of this to her in no uncertain terms. I've asked her to simply tell me whether she wants to go into this new career for herself and would do so with or without being paid, or whether she'd rather not work but is doing it because she thinks we need money. She absolutely refuses to give me a straight answer. She talks in circles, changes the subject, and when I try to pin her down and get a definitive answer from her she says she doesn't want to talk about it anymore and she doesn't have to justify herself to me. I'm getting the feeling that she won't give me an answer because the answer is the one I won't like, but I can't know for certain.

For myself, I just need to know one way or the other so I can drop it and move on. If she's doing it for herself because she wants to, then great! I'll fully support her and be very happy for her. If she's doing it for the money then I feel very hurt. I feel that she doesn't trust me and has no faith in my ability to provide. I'm looking her straight in the eye and telling her that we're fine, I can and will continue to provide for all of our family's needs. I've worked very hard to get us into a situation where she can stay home with the kids like she wanted to and I'll continue to make that possible, she has nothing to worry about, she absolutely does not need to go back to work if she doesn't want to. If, even with me telling her this, she still takes a job only for the money then that make me feel that she doesn't believe me and has no faith in me.

I need a straight answer on this. If the job is for her because she wants to something different and will enjoy it, then great! I can get behind her, fully support her, and be excited with her about her new adventure. If it's for money, then I'm pretty hurt and upset, but at least I'll know and can start processing it and making my peace with it instead of being stuck in limbo.

I guess that in addition to general comments and insight, what I'm looking for is:

1. Is it reasonable for me to demand a straight answer from her regarding her motivation for wanting the job, or should I just drop it?

2. If so, what's the best way to continue to push for this answer? I don't want to drop it, I feel like it's very important to me and I deserve to know her reasoning.

3. Is it reasonable for me to feel hurt and upset if she's taking the job to earn money because she doesn't trust me to continue providing, even though I've proven myself to be an excellent provider for our entire marriage?

I trust the opinions here and feel like I need a reality check before I push this much further.

LadyOrTheTyger · June 2015

She wants to get a job because she wants to get a job. Relying on a husband's income can make a woman feel insecure and "less than" even if he's happy for her to stay home. Women, in general, don't think as linearly as men do. Chances are that her brain hasn't thought, in so many words, "I want to get a job because X." She didn't logic herself into wanting a job, she feels like she wants a job. And trying to push her into logically explaining why she feels that way is asking her to explain in words something she only feels in emotions.

You can be a wonderful provider, and she still feels insecure and "less-than," especially if your kids are getting older. A woman who stays at home while her husband earns a fabulous income can begin to feel worth less, or even worthless. She probably wants a job because she wants a job for herself.

Reborn · June 2015

1. Is it reasonable for me to demand a straight answer from her regarding her motivation for wanting the job, or should I just drop it?

No because people don't always know what their own motivations are!

Rather than demanding an answer, could you simply tell her, "we don't need the money, but if you want to do it for you, I am 100% behind you" and then assume that if she goes ahead, it is for herself.

3. Is it reasonable for me to feel hurt and upset if she's taking the job to earn money because she doesn't trust me to continue providing, even though I've proven myself to be an excellent provider for our entire marriage?

It never makes much sense to ask "are my feelings reasonable". You feel what you feel, and if it turned out to be unreasonable, well, that woudn't enable you to stop feeling it. I feel nervous on planes, I know its not reasonable, but I still feel nervous on planes.

You feel hurt that (you think) she doesn't trust you. It may well be that her refusal to accept that everything is OK financially (even when you show her the numbers) is either (a) nothing to do with you, and all about something from her past or upbringing, or (b) nothing to do with not trusting you, and all about justifying her own wish to have a job in order to grow as a person and "not have her brains turn to mush" as one mother said to me.

Can you talk to her about trust?

HildaCorners · June 2015

Unless they have a strong hobby/avocation, women often get very bored when the kids are all in school.

Chances are your wife doesn't know herself well enough to explain why she wants to work. To me, it's clear she doesn't want to work for income, or she'd be looking for a job that doesn't need 2 years of school before she earns a penny.

Don't push her to explain things she can't articulate, even to herself. Instead, look at the concrete:

- will she be happier?
- can your family afford the school/work: financially, and in terms of time/energy?
- are you providing enough attraction at home, that she's not looking for dopamine outside the marriage?
- will the hit to your income really be that large? If you are that concerned about taking time away from business to parent your kids, could your priorities be a little out of whack?

Angeline · June 2015

Triage is here:
http://marriedmansexlife.vanillacommunities.com/discussion/9857/frommarss-triage-intro-and-hopefully-regular-updates

Angeline · June 2015

You aren't going up get a straight answer if you project that you're going to feel injured about it. Honestly, why would you? It's ridiculous, this idea that she needs to work to support the family. Because you've made it clear that you could live off your savings for years.

Are you presenting this financial info to her with pictures and charts and graphs? Because I have a disability that makes it impossible for me to absorb numbers and formulas and math stuff if given audibly, but show me a chart and I can grasp it instantly.

It's also possible that some kind of detail that escapes you is making her feel nervous about the finances in spite of your efforts to lay that to rest. Did you used to have a lawn service, and now you do it for the exercise, only she thinks it's to save money? Look for something like that.

I hate to say this, but I also think you need to do a quick but thorough check for someone on the side. It's just something to rule out, but a vague insistence on getting a low paying job is pointless unless she's thinking of bailing on the marriage.

HildaCorners · June 2015

Angeline said:

I hate to say this, but I also think you need to do a quick but thorough check for someone on the side. It's just something to rule out, but a vague insistence on getting a low paying job is pointless unless she's thinking of bailing on the marriage.

I'm not discounting what Angeline says at all ... a quick check is never a bad idea.

There are some jobs that are very fulfilling but also low pay.

I know of a woman who moved to a European country for 2 years ... with husband and kids ... in order to study a very unusual craft. I know what the craft is, and it's unlikely she'll ever earn a living wage from it. But the craft is a passion for her, and the family was in a position to move in order to let her study. [Husband worked from home and took care of two small kids.]

This is why I'm sure she isn't planning to work "to help pay the bills". If you're just looking for a good income, you can do lots of things that need minimal training that pay more than $30k a year.

If, however, she insists she's going to need the OP to pay for school for 2 years "to pay the bills", I would get very suspicious.

Frank_London · July 2015

FromMars said:

As detailed in another thread, my wife seems to think we're on the verge of financial ruin, no matter how much I go over the numbers with her and show her that we're fine.

Your business is making less money than in the past and your wife is very aware of this. No amount of "going over the numbers" will change the fact that your income has dropped and could drop some more.

She sees that as a serious issue. You don't. Therein lies the problem.

And honestly, I'm wondering if she has a point. If your business has been in decline, maybe it's going to continue to decline.

Hamster_Free · July 2015

Based on the triage thread, if she manages the money, she knows exactly what's coming in and going out.. and yeah, I also cry bullshit if she wants to 'get a job to help with bills', but the job requires 2 yrs of school first, especially depending on the type of schooling required--$30,000/yr doesn't pay back school debt overnight. (Although admittedly, sounds like your finances are much better equipped to handle school expense than the average starving student. Something tells me she knows this, so again I hoist the BS flag on financial concern if that's her angle).

Is the vocation that she's choosing one she's always liked/gravitated toward naturally? Is it maybe something that she's seen on tv that is glamorously portrayed? Is it something that could qualify as a calling/spiritual outlet? (not just in the religious sense - lots of people go into the medical field to help their fellow humans/pets/whatever, for example, because it feels right in their souls.).

Having been a SAHM, I can *definitely* empathize with wanting to do more, especially if the kids are in school. It's pretty easy to feel like you exist to keep the family functioning and lost all sense of yourself when you became a mom. Sounds like if that's the truth, though, she's communicating it in a rather bratty way, or as others say, can't put into words exactly why she wants to do it.

You said that you both work out frequently - at home? Does she go to a gym and maybe have the hots for a bubbly muscled gym trainer or something?

seriously · July 2015

The cost of two years of college, plus the associated costs of day care, etc, with neither of you being able to get the kids on and off the bus are not going to be easily outweighed by the $30,000 per year, which is going to be taxed at a higher rate than most $30,000, due to your heavy income. (My best run on sentence this week ...)

If this was about the money, she isn't seeing the situation very clearly. Ten years from now, how is the financial situation going to look, if she studies for two year, gets a job immediately, and you two follow this plan? Run the numbers and show it to her. Is working her ass off for ten years really going to get you two further ahead?

You touched on this area, but let's get into it further .... who takes on the extra duties? You say that you will need to change your work schedule to get the kids to/from school. Why? Why would that become the new norm? You should hire that service, which has a direct cost that you can quantify. The extra household chores? That too can be quantified. Do it.

Like you, I own a business. Like you, my income was MUCH higher in the 2003-2006 timeframe. I own two houses outright, all vehicles are cash purchases, etc, etc, etc. Last year, my gross income was less than half of what it was in those "special years", but I still banked 75% of my net, post tax income. Those were special years, and we treat them as such. It didn't create a new standard of living for us. We are never struggling to uphold our standard of living. If your situation is the same ... AND SHE DOES THE HOUSEHOLD BOOKS ... she either doesn't believe you or she is rationalizing her feelings for something else.

Howe about this ... I assume you have a decent accountant that is familiar with your personal finances? Would you consider having a meeting with the three of you, so she can hear that things are fine from another trusted source?

Now, back to the extra workload angle, have you two discussed this? Does she expect that you will take up all the slack, or are you assuming it?

Frank_London · July 2015

Just because it's a 2 year course doesn't mean it's 'not about the money' or the bills. That's not giving the wife very much credit. This could be a long term strategy in the face of what she sees as her husband's declining business.
Or it could be a 'bored SAHM' thing. Or both.

JellyBean · July 2015

Step one, she wants to go back to school. Given your current comfortable financial situation, why should she be discouraged from going back to school? It isn't always about becoming qualified for a certain type of employment; sometimes it's just about having a sense of accomplishment.

I have a bunch of degrees and professional certifications and only one of them is used in my current employment. I just really, really like school.

If she goes back to school she may discover that the program isn't truly what she wants after all, or she may catch a passion for a different subject altogether.

It may or may not ultimately lead to her getting a job later, but I think you should encourage her wish for more education.

FromMars · July 2015

Angeline said:

I hate to say this, but I also think you need to do a quick but thorough check for someone on the side. It's just something to rule out, but a vague insistence on getting a low paying job is pointless unless she's thinking of bailing on the marriage.

I don't think this is a possibility, but then again, no one ever really does do they? I'm a little extra sensitive to this issue because last year this exact thing happened to a close friend of ours. Everything seemed fine, then the wife wanted to get a certification and start a little business on the side. Once she got the business up and running she informed her husband that she wanted a divorce. The business was a way of setting herself up with a career for after she left.

It did cross my mind that maybe my wife is doing the same thing and setting herself up with something to do after she leaves. But I really don't think it's a possibility here. We love each other very much and she doesn't really have enough time away from me or the kids to be sneaking around. I almost asked her about this point blank during our last conversation about the job, "Is this the same type of thing as (our divorced friends) where you're trying to set yourself up with a career before you leave." Luckily, I stopped myself. She's never, ever given me the slightest reason not to trust her fidelity and I'm kind of upset at myself for even letting the thought cross my mind. I don't think it would have if I hadn't just watched my friend go through it.

Frank_London said:

And honestly, I'm wondering if she has a point. If your business has been in decline, maybe it's going to continue to decline.

This is the whole problem right here. Maybe it will decline, maybe it won't. I'm telling her that it won't, that I have this under control, and that I want her to trust in my abilities. Maybe I'm inferring too much but based on what we've discussed in the past and on how she evades my questions now I feel like she's basically telling me (or at least inferring) that she doesn't trust me, doesn't believe in me, or my abilities anymore, and now she needs to step in to fix things by getting a job that she'd rather not get and will take her away from the kids. That she doesn't want to do this, but has too because she's so certain that I'm going to fail.

Hamster_Free said:

Is the vocation that she's choosing one she's always liked/gravitated toward naturally? Is it maybe something that she's seen on tv that is glamorously portrayed? Is it something that could qualify as a calling/spiritual outlet? (not just in the religious sense - lots of people go into the medical field to help their fellow humans/pets/whatever, for example, because it feels right in their souls.).

..

You said that you both work out frequently - at home? Does she go to a gym and maybe have the hots for a bubbly muscled gym trainer or something?

It's teaching. I could see her gravitating towards that and being fulfilled by it, but if that's the case she should just tell me that - especially when asked directly! She specifically will NOT tell me that it's about what she wants and not about the money.

Regarding the gym: I work out at a gym and she works out at home. I've encouraged her to go to the gym in the past (with or without me) to get out of the house some, but she prefers to work out at home.

seriously said:

You touched on this area, but let's get into it further .... who takes on the extra duties? You say that you will need to change your work schedule to get the kids to/from school. Why? Why would that become the new norm? You should hire that service, which has a direct cost that you can quantify. The extra household chores? That too can be quantified. Do it.
..

Now, back to the extra workload angle, have you two discussed this? Does she expect that you will take up all the slack, or are you assuming it?

I'll need to take the kids to and from school because she'll be at work during those times. Hiring it out is not an option. We both feel very strongly that we should be the ones taking our kids to and from school, and spending as much time as possible with them. Especially while they're young. I understand that this works for a lot of people, but for us it's just not an option. If she's not available at the right times to take the kids to and from school then I have to do it.

Regarding the extra workload: She's said things like "when I go back to work you and the kids will have to help out around the house more." I get the feeling she's now expecting that all housework will be split down the middle now since we're both working full time. I'm actually ok with this in theory, but I see it causing a lot of fights due to our very different views on how clean and organized the house needs to be. She can take a one hour cleaning job and turn it into a 3 hour cleaning job due to her need for perfection. She pre-cleans before our housekeeper comes so she won't see how dirty it is (when it's really already clean) and then cleans more after the housekeeper leaves because "she didn't do it right." I'm willing to help out, but I'm not willing to spend hours cleaning something that's already clean.

seriously · July 2015

FWIW - I respect your opinion on who is with the kids before and after school. How much time will you now have to dedicate to it?

This is starting to sound like a self-fulfilling prophesy. Worried about declining business, take your attention away from business while wife tries to "cover", and now your business actually does decline further.

I will also add, that we drop off our two oldest kids to school on our way into work. It does not effect the workday. They come home after school and are alone for about 2 hours. Both high schoolers in the fall. Our youngest, in elementary school, we drop off on our way into the office and she is only there for a half hour before they get her on the bus. She takes the bus back there after school and she is only there for about 30-40 minutes before my wife picks her up. My wife is an elementary school teacher in a different district.

I'm going to take a stab at something - Is the teaching gig for your wife, substitute teaching? Is this a way for her to keep tabs on your kids? Most full-time teaching gigs make a heck of lot more than $30k.

FromMars · July 2015

seriously said:

FWIW - I respect your opinion on who is with the kids before and after school. How much time will you now have to dedicate to it?

This is starting to sound like a self-fulfilling prophesy. Worried about declining business, take your attention away from business while wife tries to "cover", and now your business actually does decline further.

I will also add, that we drop off our two oldest kids to school on our way into work. It does not effect the workday. They come home after school and are alone for about 2 hours. Both high schoolers in the fall. Our youngest, in elementary school, we drop off on our way into the office and she is only there for a half hour before they get her on the bus. She takes the bus back there after school and she is only there for about 30-40 minutes before my wife picks her up. My wife is an elementary school teacher in a different district.

I'm going to take a stab at something - Is the teaching gig for your wife, substitute teaching? Is this a way for her to keep tabs on your kids? Most full-time teaching gigs make a heck of lot more than $30k.

I'll lose around 2 hours of work per day dropping and picking them up. I agree about the self-fulfilling prophesy. This is a time when I really need to be spending more time on the business with fewer distractions. Instead, she's pushing hard to move things towards less time and more distractions. Even so, I'd fully support her and find a way to make it work if I knew 100% it was for HER and something that she wanted to do for herself. I'm not convinced of that and she's unwilling to discuss it.

It's full-time teaching. In our state the starting salary for public school teachers is around $30k. It may or may not be at our kids' school. I don't think it's about keeping tabs on the kids.

Angeline · July 2015

FromMars said:

Angeline said:

I hate to say this, but I also think you need to do a quick but thorough check for someone on the side. It's just something to rule out, but a vague insistence on getting a low paying job is pointless unless she's thinking of bailing on the marriage.

I don't think this is a possibility, but then again, no one ever really does do they? I'm a little extra sensitive to this issue because last year this exact thing happened to a close friend of ours. Everything seemed fine, then the wife wanted to get a certification and start a little business on the side. Once she got the business up and running she informed her husband that she wanted a divorce. The business was a way of setting herself up with a career for after she left.

It did cross my mind that maybe my wife is doing the same thing and setting herself up with something to do after she leaves. But I really don't think it's a possibility here. We love each other very much and she doesn't really have enough time away from me or the kids to be sneaking around. I almost asked her about this point blank during our last conversation about the job, "Is this the same type of thing as (our divorced friends) where you're trying to set yourself up with a career before you leave." Luckily, I stopped myself. She's never, ever given me the slightest reason not to trust her fidelity and I'm kind of upset at myself for even letting the thought cross my mind. I don't think it would have if I hadn't just watched my friend go through it.

I'm sorry it is difficult to contemplate, but actually she IS giving you cause to check up, especially given that tidbit about your friends' marriage breaking up. Us she still friends with the wife? It doesn't need to be super CSI, just a no nonsense peek through texts, Facebook messages, game chats, browsing history. If you're unsure how to do it, ask for specifics.

FromMars · July 2015

Angeline said:

I'm sorry it is difficult to contemplate, but actually she IS giving you cause to check up, especially given that tidbit about your friends' marriage breaking up. Us she still friends with the wife? It doesn't need to be super CSI, just a no nonsense peek through texts, Facebook messages, game chats, browsing history. If you're unsure how to do it, ask for specifics.

She is not still friends with the wife. She thinks what the ex-wife did to the ex-husband is horrible (there turned out to be another guy on the side for the last year of their marriage who she is now living with) and doesn't really talk to her anymore. We both are still friends only with the ex-husband - me more so than her. And before you ask, no, they never hang out alone together!

To help me wrap my head around this, what cause is she giving me to be suspect of her? Is it simply the looking for a job thing, or is there something else I'm missing?

I'm a computer guy and can certainly check up on her if needed. I really don't feel like it's necessary and it would feel like a breach of trust. I'm sure it would crush her if she ever found out I distrusted her enough to go digging through her communications.

spartacus · July 2015

Some posts are assuming something on the side, but I think you also have to explore if it's an exit strategy just because she's not happy about things. Don't have to have someone else to run to if you just want out. The first thing that s told sahm's when they want out is to find a job. Maybe really examine how things are between you both. Are you white washing an elephant in your closet?
But, I also think your dismissing her desire to help. Contribute to the family as it were. Sure you make good money, but isn't more money always better? And she is adding to the family that way. Frankly you sound pretty dismissive about her contributions. Do you really value her contributions? More importantly, does she know if you value them...I see a lot of guys put the primary metric of contribution to the family as a money income. I.e. I make the money, I'm in charge...any of that happening here?

Angeline · July 2015

Well that sounds pretty good, actually. Put it on the back burner for now, but if you need to check, hurt feelings do not trump the need for transparency. But I agree with you, it seems unnecessary for now.

So the issue is, can you send kids to a friend's for an afternoon/evening, and ask her to help you understand why she thinks she NEED to work? Do you have the necessary firmness to not be put off? You can convey that the NEED for her to work is unnecessary and insulting, without acting pissy or wounded bird. Does she feel it has to be a necessity financially or she won't be a good mom?

And you can nip the excessive housework thing in the bud starting now, by insisting that you not pay people to clean a clean house. That you won't be participating in that charade, ever. And that her taking a job is not going to impact your hours spent working, so other arrangements will have to be made for ferrying them. A chore chart as a monthly schedule that everyone participates in knocking out, kids included, will keep the list reasonable.

Why do they not ride a school bus?

Angeline · July 2015

And I'm not at all trying to say she shouldn't work, just that it needs to be for good reasons that are true, or she will be unhappy with it.

FromMars · July 2015

There are great insights from everyone here and it's giving me a lot to think about and process. Thanks.

Angeline said:

So the issue is, can you send kids to a friend's for an afternoon/evening, and ask her to help you understand why she thinks she NEED to work? Do you have the necessary firmness to not be put off? You can convey that the NEED for her to work is unnecessary and insulting, without acting pissy or wounded bird. Does she feel it has to be a necessity financially or she won't be a good mom?

And you can nip the excessive housework thing in the bud starting now, by insisting that you not pay people to clean a clean house. That you won't be participating in that charade, ever. And that her taking a job is not going to impact your hours spent working, so other arrangements will have to be made for ferrying them. A chore chart as a monthly schedule that everyone participates in knocking out, kids included, will keep the list reasonable.

Why do they not ride a school bus?

I've already attempted that conversation several times. She first tries to evade, change the subject, or go off on tangents. When I stay firm, repeatedly bring the conversation back to the issue at hand, and insist on a straight answer to my question, she eventually gets angry and ends the conversation. Usually with something along the lines of "I don't owe you an explanation, I don't have to justify myself to you, and I'm not going to talk about this anymore." (followed by silence, sticking her nose in her phone, and ignoring anything further I say.)

I think you're right on the housework and school arrangements. I've already held firm that when I help clean the house it's done to a "reasonable standard" not to her standard. If she chooses to come through and re-clean behind me that's up to her. It's important to us both that the kids be brought to school and picked up by one of us while they're young. It's just a way of having extra family time and time to talk about the day, etc. But, the reality is that we can do without her new job but we can't do without mine. We simply can't pay the bills with $30k per year. If she's going to change things then the kids will have to ride the bus or catch a ride with someone else. I hate that and she will too. But it's her choosing to make the change that causes that, not me.

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