Magnum's MAP

try_red_pill

@dbl_hoo I feel your pain, being totally honest about this stuff is more difficult than people realize.

I've come to understand that a lot of porn users have a sense of shame over their own sexuality and hiding our actions can become normalized because of that sense of shame.

I don't think you should regret that you were truthful with your wife. The only thing you have to do if carry on being awesome. If there is any damage done that will help to rebuild the trust and convince your wife the changes are here to stay.

Neither is it a small thing that you can look her in the eye and say "I have nothing more to hide, you know the absolute truth."

I say that as I was recently listening to someone talk about telling his wife some of his history. It included escorts and massage parlors. He was shocked when she told him "you have no integrity!" In his mind he viewed himself as someone who could make a commitment and try to live up to it with the exception of his sexual problem.

My point is based on what you have posted here you can have faith that your integrity is solid.

Magnum

It has been a tumultuous couple of weeks for me and for W.  After coming clean about my porn usage, I didn't want to continue lying to W.  So when she asked (something along the lines of) "what else aren't you telling me," I told her about the forum.  Her hands were shaking as she pulled it on her phone.  And then she started to read.  And she saw (1) that I had bad-mouthed her appearance and actions; (2) that I had not taken her illness seriously; (3) that I had posted intimate details of our sex life; (4) that I had posted enough information that anyone who knows me could probably identify me and (5) that I'd used a secret email account to buy the book and post on the forum.  This, on top of the fact that I'd lied to her for years and years about my porn habit.

Can I act like an ass, or what? 

But she also saw the positive changes I have made in the past year, and the way our sex life has recently improved, and that I was focused on being a better husband and father. 

And so she saw the value in the forum and she started to make peace with the bombs I had dropped.

Yep, that's the amazing wife I have.  

We had a tense drive to the beach.  But in the end, we had an amazing weekend with our extended family.  And we had some great sex too.

So what did I do? 

I tried to fuck it up.

The Sunday we got back from vacation, we went to the library.  I was looking through the non-fiction shelves when I came across a book that wasn't exactly appropriate.  We were at a public library, so it wasn't pornographic.  But the "nice guy" in me wouldn't have wanted his wife to see him looking at the book.  Well, what should happen, but W walks up and sees me with the book.  What did I do?  I FUCKING LIED!  That's right...I quickly shelved the book and pretended that I hadn't been looking at it.  And then when it was obvious that my lie had completely failed, I had a panic attack right there in the library.  You might wonder why I had a panic attack.  Well, I knew, I KNEW, that W would understandably lose it when she saw that the guy who'd been lying to her for years was still lying to her.  How was she to believe anything that I ever said?  How was she to believe that I wasn't still looking at porn?  That I hadn't cheated on her?  That I was telling the truth about our family's finances?  That anything I said was true?  To paraphrase her words, I opened up a huge pit inside her.

Am I deeply flawed person with a penchant for self-defeating behavior or what?

We are still married.  But I've really had to come to grips with some hard truths.

1. I wasted 15 years of our sex life.  15 YEARS when we could have been having GREAT sex but weren't because of my porn habit and my PE.  And it wasn't W's fault at all.  It was all me.
2. I had used my PE as a crutch and excuse, and it wasn't until W questioned her decision to marry me in January that (with the forum's encouragement) I took it really seriously and found a sex therapist and got some helpful treatment.
3. Until I came clean to W, I would be forever beholden to my nice guy tendencies.
4. That I was grossly unfair to W in many posts, especially where I complained about her appearance, weight and her illness.

W and I are still working through all of this.  I have created (with some input from W) a plan of actions that I will take in order to maintain the gains I've had in the last year (and hopefully increase them).  By doing so, consistently and honestly, I will, with time, start to regain her trust and forgiveness.

Those actions include:

1. Confessing my porn usage and the negative things I said about W on MMSL to someone that I respect and establishing an accountability relationship with him.
2. Attending periodic meetings of a group of men that are dedicated to not using porn.
3. Continuing to use the form, but focusing on the productive aspects and with W's full knowledge.  @Serenity:  W mentioned seeing a thread where you had some guidelines for couples that use the forum together.  I looked, but couldn't find them.  Will you post a link?
4. Telling W when I am tempted to lie to avoid conflict or for other reasons and to promptly disclose a lie if I make one, so that we can talk about the source of the problem.

I am stunned by the effort and patience that W has put into me and our relationship.  She's reading the Primer and NMMNG.  NMMNG, in particular, has resonated because it describes so many traits that I have.

And for the record, despite my complaining, W is HOT.  She's got a hot bod and a hot mind.  Hot in a way that would make guys on the forum jealous to know that I regularly (and more and more regularly) have sex with this woman.  Not only is she hot, but she's fun and kinky in bed.  And she's smart.  Clearly, I'm a lucky guy.  I know that I whined and bitched like a little baby in some of my thread posts, but it is clear to me that what I was really complaining about was her illness.  And to complain about her when she was so ill was a major CMN.  So critical, that I drove her to hate me at times and cause her to feel that I won't be there for her if she's sick again.  Of course, I can easily say that I will be there, but as folks on the forum say, its all about ACTIONS and not words.  

Fortunately, I like taking action.  As the books says, "The Obstacle is the Way."  And, in this case, the obstacle is the damage I've caused to my marriage and the hurt I've caused W.  But this is an obstacle I can overcome and flip to our advantage  - it will take time, work (on my part) and patience and forgiveness (on W's part), but I am confident that we can build a better, stronger marriage than the one we had in the past.  Already in the last month, we've had more and better sex than we've had in our entire marriage.  (W correctly pointed out the other night that neither of us realized how important healthy sex is to a happy marriage).  And, not only has the sex been better, but we have been talking more openly and honestly about many, many things.

Anyway, that's all of I've got to post for now.  W is actively looking at the forum and MMSL materials.  She may or may not decide to post here, and if she does she may or may not decide to identify herself as my wife.  If she does, I hope that you all will welcome her as the wonderful and lovely woman she is.  

Magnum

Mods - can we change the title of this thread and my triad to "Magnum's MAP" and "Magnum's Triag"?  Thanks. 

try_red_pill

Can't awesome your long post above enough!

Serenity

For years,  you've been hiding from your wife. Now, for the first time, you are allowing yourself to be truly 'naked' with her.

It's tough and you're going to have painful times, but I can tell you from experience that it will ultimately bring you closer.

My husband and I hid from each other for decades. We never fought because we were too 'nice', but we never actually felt connected.

In the last few years, we have lowered our shields, and oh. my. gosh. We are painfully blunt.  I tell him things I never thought I would share. Sometimes it's negative thoughts about him he never realized I had.

We fight ... sometimes a lot. We yell. I've actually used the 'F' word. Something I never thought I would ever do. 

But ... we are finally naked with each other. And we are more connected than I ever thought we could be. 

Once you start being honest with her, your wife will sometimes/often/frequently feel angry with you. Furious, in fact. That's okay. It's necessary, and it's a good thing. 
 
Don't let your fear of her anger get in your way. When you lie to her, she loses respect. It's better to have her anger than her contempt. 

Not to go too zen on you, but the path you're on is going to take a lot of strength. But the reward  is well worth it. You will have the marriage you never thought you could have. 

Serenity

Here are a couple of links that will help, including a 'couples on the Forum' section. 

One caveat I can give from experience ...

Being on the Forum together isn't a substitute for communicating. In fact, it often tends to get in the way of good communication.

I think you and your wife will benefit more from going over the Map book and writing out your reds/yellows/greens and coming up with your weekly monkeys. You can also watch some of the videos together, or read specific blog posts together. 


http://marriedmansexlife.com/if-you-discover-your-partner-reading-mmsl/

http://marriedmansexlife.com/the-mmsl-forum-basics/

1. Continuing to use the form, but focusing on the productive aspects and with W's full knowledge.  @Serenity:  W mentioned seeing a thread where you had some guidelines for couples that use the forum together.  I looked, but couldn't find them.  Will you post a link?

Serenity

1. I wasted 15 years of our sex life.  15 YEARS when we could have been having GREAT sex but weren't because of my porn habit and my PE.  And it wasn't W's fault at all.  It was all me.

1. I had used my PE as a crutch and excuse, and it wasn't until W questioned her decision to marry me in January that (with the forum's encouragement) I took it really seriously and found a sex therapist and got some helpful treatment.

This. This is huge. And will go a long way toward healing your marriage. The fact you recognize and acknowledge your role in damaging the marriage is crucial to healing.

Where do you go from here? 

First, don't wallow in guilt.

You've made mistakes, you've acknowledged them. Now the only thing left is to start correcting them. Your actions will mean a lot more than your words. 

http://hightmarriage.com/the-runner-stumbles/

http://marriedmansexlife.com/2014/12/doing-the-thing-again-and-compounding-errors/

Second, feeling regret is good, feeling shame is bad. Shame is toxic. You can't build a good marriage based on shame. So, let that stuff go. 

Porn is more about dopamine than it is about sex. It just provides so much damned dopamine for so little effort, it's a very difficult temptation to avoid.

Porn use is so ubiquitous that in coaching, it's not a question of 'are you using porn?' but rather 'how much porn are you using?'.


http://marriedmansexlife.com/2013/08/high-fructose-porn-syrup/

An accountability partner is good, but be careful about porn recovery groups. What I've seen is that there is a lot of toxicity in those groups. Shame, chest beating, getting hung up in the past, focusing on the very thing you're trying to let go.

Third, you need to start replacing the negative with the positive. Otherwise, you and your wife will spiral down.

Come up with a weekly high-dopamine activity you can do together. Not sure of your respective skill/fitness levels, but ... working out together, hiking, ropes courses, bumper cars, amusement parks, etc.

Doing dopamine activities together increases attraction and bonding. Set that as a weekly monkey.

Magnum

This week's monkeys:

1.  Make arrangements for next summer week @ lake.
2.  Re-read first 3 chapters of NMMNG
3.  Lead daily family prayer.
4.  Write longer MAP update.
5.  Do the Men's Group Work.
6.  Be spontaneously fun and positive.

Magnum

Magnum said:

This week's monkeys:

1.  Make arrangements for next summer week @ lake.

Done.  This is shaping up to be an awesome visit.

2.  Re-read first 3 chapters of NMMNG

Done.  Discussed them with W.  The book has really help W in understanding why I do what I do.

3.  Lead daily family prayer.

Done.  Still working out the kinks, but the family has embraced this.

4.  Write longer MAP update.

Not Done.  Have drafted something, but not ready to share it yet.

5.  Do the Men's Group Work.

Done.

6.  Be spontaneously fun and positive.

Done.  Suggested a spur-of-the-moment outdoor activity for the family, which everyone enjoyed.  Also, was generally fun and lighthearted with the family when we interacted.

This week's monkeys.  

1.  Make appointment with counselor.
2.  Continue the things I did last week (Men's Group Prep; Family Prayer; Reading NMMNG).
3.  Make anniversary plans.
4.  Collect $ owed by SIL.
5.  Be intentional at Home, at Work, and in my relationships with others.

Pen_and_Sword

@Magnum, how are things going since your break-through?

Magnum

@Pen_and_Sword:  Thank you for checking in.  I appreciate that.  

It has been a long while since I have posted on the forum.  There are at least 2 reasons for this:

• Now that W knows about the forum, I do feel the need to self-moderate in a way that I didn't before.  I have used that as a justification for not taking advantage of the positive things that I can get from the forum.
• If I'm honest with myself, I've been backsliding on a number of areas - not just the forum.  We had several very good weeks  But during that time, I've had some pretty notable frame collapses.  Lately I've not initiated sex as frequently as I was right after we blew things open (@Pen - your recent posts have been helpful on this point - I sometimes find myself with similar feelings and actions).  And, I've indulged in too much wine and too many snacks a couple of times, which has impacted both my self-perception and probably my T levels.

Even so, I have held firm on my porn-free commitment.  And, I have continued working out regularly.   Those parts have remained positive.

I still have a lot of "Nice Guy" tendencies to overcome.  Here's an example: A couple of weeks ago she asked a simple, a nonjudgemental question from her about whether I've charged a vibrator.  My reaction (which is so ingrained that it is like a muscle memory) was to tell her that I'd charged the vibrator when I hadn't - I did it out of fear (unjustified) that she'd have a "bad" reaction.  She called me out on it, and pointed out how this was a real opportunity for me to own my own actions, and let her own her own reaction to what I do.  If her reaction is a problem, then we have something to deal with.  I don't like to admit it, but even with as far as I have come, I'm still very much a work-in-progress.
 
Today, I finally read the links posted by @Serenity in her response above.  I found them accurate and encouraging.

I do have a plan for maintaining my porn-free streak - that is not something that I'm willing to backslide on.  I'm attending weekly meetings through a local church.  Some of the criticism that @Serenity mentions apply, but overall, there has been more positive than negative.  

One thing that I've been missing (and that this porn-recovery program has been missing) is the emphasis on "replacing the negative with the positive."  W and I did a bit of that before fall set in - some travel; some fun events; etc., but recently I've have also been letting that slide.  

So, here's what I want to emphasize this week:

1.  Maintaining my frame.  I need to think about this several times a day.  Otherwise, I tend to get bogged down and looking to W to assure me and pump me up.

2.  I need another competitive outlet.  Getting geared up for an obstable race this spring was a huge boost for me.  I need to find something similar and start planning for it.

3.  Plan more fun stuff with W.  W already have something on deck for this Saturday, but I need to start looking ahead for more events.

Anyway, this has been longer than I intended.  As always, I appreciate any feedback.

Pen_and_Sword

Glad to hear you're still in the race and, honestly, it sounds like your FO totally gets the goal, and the battle to get there. I'm happy for you in that regard.

You said enough early on about your fitness and income, etc, that I think you could justify a very confident frame. Nice list of monkeys. Steady as she goes! 

Serenity

You really really need to replace the porn with something that creates dopamine. Not sure where you live or what activities are available, but some examples ...

Dopamine/Frame Building/Testosterone Increasing Activities:

• Martial Arts (aggressive ones, not form-focused)
• Competitions (Tough Mudders, Spartan races, etc.)
• Rock Climbing
• Gun ranges
• White water rafting
• Challenging hikes
• Paintball
• Shooting a bow
• Punching bag/Boxing

One thing that I've been missing (and that this porn-recovery program has been missing) is the emphasis on "replacing the negative with the positive."  W and I did a bit of that before fall set in - some travel; some fun events; etc., but recently I've have also been letting that slide.  

Magnum

I was slow to catch on that the forum is, as all things must do, ending.  I appreciate all the help and support that I have received - from @Pen_and_Sword, @Tennee, @HildaCorners, @Serenity, @CartB4Horse and others.  I wish everyone on the forum the best.  May you all have success in being the very best that you can be.